281 réponses à ce sujet

[tenojitsu]

bchesson wrote...

tenojitsu wrote...
As far as a "keep the endings the same" movement...I would love to see someone do this.

There is one it's "Keep Mass Effect" on Facebook so they have a movement too....everyone is happy!

Nice! How many "likes" or whatever it is called do they have? I deativated my facebook account

[Milish]

[quote]tenojitsu wrote...

 Riddle me this... SInce when did video games stop being GAMES and become "art?" I understand that designing characters, environments, etc takes an artistic touch, like being able to draw, and writing a good story requires a great deal of skill and talent, but is it really art? In my opinion, books are books, movies are movies, and "art" is painting, sculpture, and other stuff like that. I never learned about books, movies, or video games in any "art" class that I've taken. How come everyone that does anything that requires a bit of skill want to be called an artist? The guy who owns the local BBQ joint makes some mean fried chicken, maybe he's an artist too.

Its a video game, period. Art can't be mass produced, i.e., there is only one Mona Lisa (yes there are copies and if that's where you take your argument just don't even bother). The content of a DVD game that gets pumped out by the thousands is not art, and I'm tired of being told we have to treat Bioware like "artists." I'm sure these are the same people that feel the need to call everyone they know the first time their snot nosed kid goes poopy in the potty, because apparently that's art too (see mass effect 3 ending)
[/quote]

If it's not art than why do you care so much about then ending?

Shouldn't you just strictly be concerned with gameplay

[/quote]

Consider ART a secondary description word. GAmes can be art. Painting can be art. Music can be art. Hell, I'll go as far as saying that the mean chicken can be culinary art too.

If you think art cannot be mass produced, look up Warhol and Hirst.

Why does it scare you so much, that you would treat BW like artists? Like i said before, just because someone is an artist doesn't mean they have 100% right to shaping the final product, especially when it's meant for milions of users and it's interactive. Like i wrote before, consider computer game a commissioned art piece - you pay for it so you have full right in stating your discontent with parts of it, and asking for them to be changed.

[Jackal7713]

bchesson wrote...

tenojitsu wrote...
As far as a "keep the endings the same" movement...I would love to see someone do this.

There is one it's "Keep Mass Effect" on Facebook so they have a movement too....everyone is happy!

All 116 of them.

Edit: sorry the joke was just to tempting.

Modifié par Jackal7713, 20 mars 2012 - 09:26 .

[CDHarrisUSF]

Calling something "art" is completely beside the point. It has no bearing on the discussion, in my opinion. That is the problem I have with someone hiding behind the word "art" as if an artist is somehow beyond criticism. An artist is human. An artist makes mistakes. If an artist tells you what he is attempting to achieve with a particular piece and completely misses the mark, the artist can be said to have objectively failed. All I am telling BioWare is that they really botched the last few minutes of an otherwise stellar (no pun intended) piece of art. Once they are aware of what when wrong, I am relying on their artistic integrity to motivate them to go back and do it right... to do right by not only the fans, but the series itself.

Modifié par CDHarrisUSF, 20 mars 2012 - 09:27 .

[DemGeth]

tenojitsu wrote...

DemGeth wrote...

tenojitsu wrote...

 Riddle me this... SInce when did video games stop being GAMES and become "art?" I understand that designing characters, environments, etc takes an artistic touch, like being able to draw, and writing a good story requires a great deal of skill and talent, but is it really art? In my opinion, books are books, movies are movies, and "art" is painting, sculpture, and other stuff like that. I never learned about books, movies, or video games in any "art" class that I've taken. How come everyone that does anything that requires a bit of skill want to be called an artist? The guy who owns the local BBQ joint makes some mean fried chicken, maybe he's an artist too.

Its a video game, period. Art can't be mass produced, i.e., there is only one Mona Lisa (yes there are copies and if that's where you take your argument just don't even bother). The content of a DVD game that gets pumped out by the thousands is not art, and I'm tired of being told we have to treat Bioware like "artists." I'm sure these are the same people that feel the need to call everyone they know the first time their snot nosed kid goes poopy in the potty, because apparently that's art too (see mass effect 3 ending)

If it's not art than why do you care so much about then ending?

Shouldn't you just strictly be concerned with gameplay

See above post

Maybe I don't get it you don't think movies and books are art?

[Hendrik.III]

Art - at least to me - is creativity, sensation and vision free of monetary motivations. Free of deadlines, target audience and other restraining factors. That's why contemporary music includes so much SUCK. Money and fame seem to be increasingly more important than the joy of making music.

If BioWare/EA wanted to make art they'd given us the ending they intended to give us and taken the time and money to make it perfect. Hell, they'd have risked red numbers to create a jewel - which they would obviously never do.

I applaud their work and enjoyed it very much, but to play the "hands off art" card is just opportunistically  throwing ethics around they REALLY don't care about. It's like a get-out-of-jail card they're trying to play. Seriously, playing that card is turning them into quacks - I wouldn't go there.

Modifié par Hendrik.III, 20 mars 2012 - 09:35 .

[DemGeth]

Oh just read again...that is what you think


Jesus......really?

You need to get some culture in you, that is just beyond sad.

[tenojitsu]

[quote]Milish wrote...



[quote]tenojitsu wrote...

 Riddle me this... SInce when did video games stop being GAMES and become "art?" I understand that designing characters, environments, etc takes an artistic touch, like being able to draw, and writing a good story requires a great deal of skill and talent, but is it really art? In my opinion, books are books, movies are movies, and "art" is painting, sculpture, and other stuff like that. I never learned about books, movies, or video games in any "art" class that I've taken. How come everyone that does anything that requires a bit of skill want to be called an artist? The guy who owns the local BBQ joint makes some mean fried chicken, maybe he's an artist too.

Its a video game, period. Art can't be mass produced, i.e., there is only one Mona Lisa (yes there are copies and if that's where you take your argument just don't even bother). The content of a DVD game that gets pumped out by the thousands is not art, and I'm tired of being told we have to treat Bioware like "artists." I'm sure these are the same people that feel the need to call everyone they know the first time their snot nosed kid goes poopy in the potty, because apparently that's art too (see mass effect 3 ending)
[/quote]

If it's not art than why do you care so much about then ending?

Shouldn't you just strictly be concerned with gameplay

[/quote]

Consider ART a secondary description word. GAmes can be art. Painting can be art. Music can be art. Hell, I'll go as far as saying that the mean chicken can be culinary art too.

If you think art cannot be mass produced, look up Warhol and Hirst.

Why does it scare you so much, that you would treat BW like artists? Like i said before, just because someone is an artist doesn't mean they have 100% right to shaping the final product, especially when it's meant for milions of users and it's interactive. Like i wrote before, consider computer game a commissioned art piece - you pay for it so you have full right in stating your discontent with parts of it, and asking for them to be changed.



[/quote]


As you say, I should be focused on gameplay and not story. As I have already stated, thats what I dont like about the ending. It was clearly misadvertised and doesnt operate in the manner that was descibed. They specifically said, no A, B, C ending, and specifically received an A, B, C ending. They said since it was the last of the trilogy endings could diverge and there would be a vast variety in the ending, depending on how you played. Well, this is clearly not true as well.

As far as being scared of considering Bioware artists, well, I'm scared of them hiding behind the artist argument in order to escape criticism.

As I previously stated, if movies are considered to be art and it is the norm from everyone on the planet to bash, critique, and pick apart every movie that is released, a group of gamers shouldnt be labelled as "entitled children" because critique a video game.

[tjmax]

Milish wrote...

tenojitsu wrote...

 Riddle me this... SInce when did video games stop being GAMES and become "art?" I understand that designing characters, environments, etc takes an artistic touch, like being able to draw, and writing a good story requires a great deal of skill and talent, but is it really art? In my opinion, books are books, movies are movies, and "art" is painting, sculpture, and other stuff like that. I never learned about books, movies, or video games in any "art" class that I've taken. How come everyone that does anything that requires a bit of skill want to be called an artist? The guy who owns the local BBQ joint makes some mean fried chicken, maybe he's an artist too.

Its a video game, period. Art can't be mass produced, i.e., there is only one Mona Lisa (yes there are copies and if that's where you take your argument just don't even bother). The content of a DVD game that gets pumped out by the thousands is not art, and I'm tired of being told we have to treat Bioware like "artists." I'm sure these are the same people that feel the need to call everyone they know the first time their snot nosed kid goes poopy in the potty, because apparently that's art too (see mass effect 3 ending)

If it's not art than why do you care so much about then ending?

Shouldn't you just strictly be concerned with gameplay



Consider ART a secondary description word. GAmes can be art. Painting can be art. Music can be art. Hell, I'll go as far as saying that the mean chicken can be culinary art too.

If you think art cannot be mass produced, look up Warhol and Hirst.

Why does it scare you so much, that you would treat BW like artists? Like i said before, just because someone is an artist doesn't mean they have 100% right to shaping the final product, especially when it's meant for milions of users and it's interactive. Like i wrote before, consider computer game a commissioned art piece - you pay for it so you have full right in stating your discontent with parts of it, and asking for them to be changed.

The role playing game by definition can not be art. Thats like saying playing AD&D is art.

  It is many pieces of art put together to form interactive entertainment. A product to be sold. The fact that it is interactive means the players have a role in how the story is played out and no two stories are exactly alike. This was the premise of the game on its creation and the expectations of its fans and stood true for the first 2 games.

Its also not a movie.

In movies Actors are the role players. They star in movies and contribute by playing the parts of said movie. They sometimes have direct influence to change the direction of the final story from their own visions. In fact there are many movies that have alternate endings and of course directors cuts.

If you consider it art or not, a game is still a consumer product and those consumers have expectations based on past products, advertisement, interviews and reviews. 

If those expectations are not met there is a feeling of being ripped off. People generally do not like being ripped off. 

Modifié par tjmax, 20 mars 2012 - 09:33 .

[az350z]

I said I wouldn't reply - but it amazes me one thing needs to be clarified. By "story" I obviously meant the 5-10 minutes of the ending. By the same token, this doesn't surprise me as I've already had to try make people realize they are complaining about a story rather than a vacuum cleaner. Lumping the entire game of 20-30 hours (plus multiplayer)into a 5-10 segment is - yes, back to that great word - childish.

You didn't pay for an just an ending, most importantly, the massive product is not just a quick cinematic ending.

That is all, all points made, enjoy your revolt against something we do for relaxation and fun, etc.

[Milish]

art in its origin was made precisely for money.there wasn't even the word art per so, just artisan. All the fantastic old paintings we consider great examples of art today were mostly commissions and had to be 'tailored' to expectations (eg. caravaggios paintings were refused by the church coz the characters in them had dirty feet)
it was a job like any other to make sure your family doesn't eat one another. Nowadays the definition of art shifted to somehow fit some sort of 'creative genius' idea.

Of course today everyone is entitled to have their own definition of art.

[tenojitsu]

DemGeth wrote...

Oh just read again...that is what you think


Jesus......really?

You need to get some culture in you, that is just beyond sad.

And this is the typical argument of the people who like the ending. Belittling and personal attacks

[Arppis]

Simpfan wrote...

What art "is" is up to interpretation, as is whether the ending can be shooed away because of it.

But video games are a form of art, just like music is a form of art, and literature and theatre.

Yep, video games infact combine quite many forms of art. Saying that it is not art insults those people who have poured their creativity in it creating these amazing worlds, visuals, music, stories and such.

Infact, for me video games are interactive art pieces as best (yep sometimes they are not really art).

That said, someone can feel that art piece doesn't meet their standards or it gives a lot of negative feelings. So just because something is art, doesn't mean it can't be critizised.

Modifié par Arppis, 20 mars 2012 - 09:35 .

[Nu-Nu]

It is made up of many elements of art and creativity from design to literature. There have been a few games that I really could describe as art, like ICO or Okamii.

Most people believe art is only art if it's expensive or something that can be invested in, but this is just the rich man point of view.

I believe games can be art, but like all art, it is subject to critiques. It is how an artist gets better after all.

[tjmax]

Nu-Nu wrote...

It is made up of many elements of art and creativity from design to literature. There have been a few games that I really could describe as art, like ICO or Okamii.

Most people believe art is only art if it's expensive or something that can be invested in, but this is just the rich man point of view.

I believe games can be art, but like all art, it is subject to critiques. It is how an artist gets better after all.

Art is art when its finished. a games not finished till the players play it.

[tenojitsu]

az350z wrote...

I said I wouldn't reply - but it amazes me one thing needs to be clarified. By "story" I obviously meant the 5-10 minutes of the ending. By the same token, this doesn't surprise me as I've already had to try make people realize they are complaining about a story rather than a vacuum cleaner. Lumping the entire game of 20-30 hours (plus multiplayer)into a 5-10 segment is - yes, back to that great word - childish.

You didn't pay for an just an ending, most importantly, the massive product is not just a quick cinematic ending.

That is all, all points made, enjoy your revolt against something we do for relaxation and fun, etc.

Should a piece of software not behave in the manner in which it was advertised? Lets say it was word processing software. All of the features of the software worked perfectly, allowing you to create the document exactly how you desired. However, the print feature of this software is broken. You get all the way to the end to find out that one of the key features isnt working. Are you justified in being upset and wanting resolution.

Again, and for the last time, my gripe is that they told us one thing, and delivered the exact opposite. If they would have never claimed the ending wouldnt be A, B, C, etc, etc, etc, I wouldnt be complaining about it. Well, perhaps I would complain a little about the bad ending, but I wouldnt feel as if I was sold a product that clearly doesnt work the way I was told it would, and I wouldnt be expecting them to fix it.

[Milish]

The role playing game by definition can not be art. Thats like saying playing AD&D is art.

  It is many pieces of art put together to form interactive entertainment. A product to be sold. The fact that it is interactive means the players have a role in how the story is played out and no two stories are exactly alike. This was the premise of the game on its creation and the expectations of its fans and stood true for the first 2 games.

Its also not a movie.

In movies Actors are the role players. They star in movies and contribute by playing the parts of said movie. They sometimes have direct influence to change the direction of the final story from their own visions. In fact there are many movies that have alternate endings and of course directors cuts.

If you consider it art or not, a game is still a consumer product and those consumers have expectations based on past products, advertisement, interviews and reviews. 

If those expectations are not met there is a feeling of being ripped off. People generally do not like being ripped off. 

Yes a game is a consumer product. It is also art. The point I made earlier was, that you cannot consider art something that you do not have say in, especially if you pay for it.

Just because something is art, doesn't mean it is only artists who have a say as to how it looks. 
Art is a product. As much as some people do not like it, art is nothing else but a product. 
Game is a form of art commission to people and people have full right to demand changes if something was badly resolved.

If you ask me 'paint me a portrait, ill pay' I will. then you say 'sorry I hate the way you painted the nose' and I will be obliged to change it. This doesn't change the fact that the painting is art. But also doesn't change the fact it's a product I made for you and it should comply with your expectations.

Games art much more elaborate than paintings of course, but it still doesn't make them any less of art. In the end of the day BW had a vision for the game and hired people to materialize that vision. That's how art and artists rolled always.

[tenojitsu]

Ok, Mass Effect 3 is art. It is "The Last Supper," with John painted in as a stick figure

[musicaleCA]

az350z wrote...

I don't care what you call it or how far you choose to go. It may be to a lesser extent, but YES, you are on board. And I'm not talking directly to YOU, I mean YOU as a "movement." You ARE intentionally making a scene and that's all that matters. And it remains childish antics.

Forbes rebukes your assertion far better than I can.

As for ME being art: Legally speaking, in the US, it is. The US Supreme Court determined that video games are, by its legal definition, art, and thus are granted similar protections as other forms of art.

That doesn't mean it's above criticism, or that false advertising is somehow kosher now. It just means that, legally-speaking, in the US, it is indeed art.

Modifié par musicaleCA, 20 mars 2012 - 09:44 .

[Milish]

tenojitsu wrote...

Ok, Mass Effect 3 is art. It is "The Last Supper," with John painted in as a stick figure

yeah that about sums it up
As an artist, that's exactly how I felt when I finished the game. So obvisouly I would expect the creators to fix that.

[saracen16]

tenojitsu wrote...

 Riddle me this... SInce when did video games stop being GAMES and become "art?"

They are both.

I understand that designing characters, environments, etc takes an artistic touch, like being able to draw, and writing a good story requires a great deal of skill and talent, but is it really art? In my opinion, books are books, movies are movies, and "art" is painting, sculpture, and other stuff like that. I never learned about books, movies, or video games in any "art" class that I've taken. How come everyone that does anything that requires a bit of skill want to be called an artist? The guy who owns the local BBQ joint makes some mean fried chicken, maybe he's an artist too.

Self-expression is art. And yes, cooking is an art.

Its a video game, period. Art can't be mass produced, i.e., there is only one Mona Lisa (yes there are copies and if that's where you take your argument just don't even bother). The content of a DVD game that gets pumped out by the thousands is not art, and I'm tired of being told we have to treat Bioware like "artists." I'm sure these are the same people that feel the need to call everyone they know the first time their snot nosed kid goes poopy in the potty, because apparently that's art too (see mass effect 3 ending)

Books are art and can be mass-produced.

[darkshadow136]

Jackal7713 wrote...

Simpfan wrote...

What art "is" is up to interpretation, as is whether the ending can be shooed away because of it.

But video games are a form of art, just like music is a form of art, and literature and theatre.

So by that logic the game Tetris is art?

Was Pong art?

How about Mrs. Pacman?

Good point. Also thing to remember Video games are really catorgized as Commecial interactive media product, not art, or literature. Video game may have some art elements, and some storytelling involved, but video games don't fall into the same medium.

[tenojitsu]

musicaleCA wrote...

az350z wrote...

I don't care what you call it or how far you choose to go. It may be to a lesser extent, but YES, you are on board. And I'm not talking directly to YOU, I mean YOU as a "movement." You ARE intentionally making a scene and that's all that matters. And it remains childish antics.

Forbes rebukes your assertion far better than I can.

As for ME being art: Legally speaking, in the US, it is. The US Supreme Court determined that video games are, by its legal definition, art, and thus are granted similar protections as other forms of art.

That doesn't mean it's above criticism, or that false advertising is somehow kosher now. It just means that, legally-speaking, in the US, it is indeed art.

Great article. I havent seen that one yet. Thanks!

[CDHarrisUSF]

Hendrik.III wrote...

Art - at least to me - is creativity, sensation and vision free of monetary motivations.

By your definition, almost no one has ever created true art. Artists have a very long and storied tradition of making a living off their craft. William Shakespeare's works were written to play well to the masses. Leonardo, Raphael, Michaelangelo, Donatello... all of the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles sold and/or commissioned their most famous works of art. They even had their equivalents of a producer like EA to fund the creation of art. The king, the head of the church (sometimes the same person), and some wealthy individuals would patronize artists... sometimes out of love for art, but often to promote the church (or whatever organization the patron represents).

[tenojitsu]

saracen16 wrote...

tenojitsu wrote...

 Riddle me this... SInce when did video games stop being GAMES and become "art?"

They are both.

I understand that designing characters, environments, etc takes an artistic touch, like being able to draw, and writing a good story requires a great deal of skill and talent, but is it really art? In my opinion, books are books, movies are movies, and "art" is painting, sculpture, and other stuff like that. I never learned about books, movies, or video games in any "art" class that I've taken. How come everyone that does anything that requires a bit of skill want to be called an artist? The guy who owns the local BBQ joint makes some mean fried chicken, maybe he's an artist too.

Self-expression is art. And yes, cooking is an art.

Its a video game, period. Art can't be mass produced, i.e., there is only one Mona Lisa (yes there are copies and if that's where you take your argument just don't even bother). The content of a DVD game that gets pumped out by the thousands is not art, and I'm tired of being told we have to treat Bioware like "artists." I'm sure these are the same people that feel the need to call everyone they know the first time their snot nosed kid goes poopy in the potty, because apparently that's art too (see mass effect 3 ending)

Books are art and can be mass-produced.

I agree to disagree. Thanks for the post though!