281 réponses à ce sujet

[Luigitornado]

How about this: when did video games ever stop being art?

Movies, music, comic books, and novels: all art. Stop being childish.

[JasmoVT]

So apparently you think books, music, movies, etc are not art. You seem to not understand what art is. Lots of art is mass produced. All video games are art at least to the extent of how well they blend story arc, visuals and sound. Some video games are not very good art, some are very good art. Mass Effect games are very good art. True they are not the Mana Lisa, but they are not a velvet Elvis either.

[Wolder88]

Video games are art according to my point of view. The logic fallacy lies in thinking that art should never be changed. Using the same argument you can claim that HD TV is a violation of the classic movie media, or that patching a game to use higher levels of graphic is wrong. This one of the cases where capitalism could do some good, give the people what they want; Ending DLC.

[Quietness]

Yttrian wrote...

Art is not beyond criticism.

The entire idea is a red herring we are fighting over for the sake of semantics.

Stop.

This is well put and true ^^

[MattFini]

Also, the "artistic integrity" of ME3 goes out the window at the very end with the "buy some DLC" prompt. Shameless.

[MB957]

my post from another thread on a similar topic....

well..as an artist..I can say that there are many different levels and forms of art. I trained for years as a "fine artist"...mostly painting. fine art is what people usually think of when they think museum, old art books, portraits in oil and canvas, marble sculpture etc.

there is also "commercial artist" these people usually create art images for business and corp. use. they may or may not be trained fine artists. there is a lot of crossover.

there is the "starving artist" usually these are the idealists, who "suffer for their art" Ive done it myself! it can be rewarding...but ya go hungry alot. one guy even shot himself with a gun..every year...to "create the art of human suffering and pain" oki. to each his own ya know.

there are "folk artists" these people usually strive to preserve and protect a community heritage of some sort. as per my roots...cajun art...tells the story of my people and their struggles as well as triumphs thru the years

there are many many levels of artists. gaming is full of artists. but is a video game art? possibly. as an artist..I would like to think so.

but art is also a business. and once art is up for sell, it is subject to the nuances of the marketplace. thats just reality.

it drives me crazy when someone likes my art...but wont buy it cuz it "doesnt match their sofa" so...they come back a week later..and wow! there is a new piece..similar to the one they liked..but now it "matches the sofa" they think I am some kind of "creative genius" and they buy their art and love it! Im no genius. Im hungry. I got bills to pay.

there is a story we heard in art history class...about leonardo da vinci. when leo was painting his masterpiece, the last supper, the guy who hired him, some higher up in the church, was getting impatient and trying to rush da vinci. well..the guy comes by one day, giving leo all sorts of trouble, telling him to hurry up. da vinici told him he was almost done, but had one portrait left to do...the face of judas,.. and asked the guy if he knew anyone who could model it for him...

the guy got the hint and left him alone.

art is a funny thing. its objective and subjective, and gets all mixed up!

in ME universe, we have all been artists, co creating our worlds. for me, we all have a say in this.

we are all artists and ME is a canvas for all of us!

imagine on!

[Team Value]

MattFini wrote...

Also, the "artistic integrity" of ME3 goes out the window at the very end with the "buy some DLC" prompt. Shameless.

So much this.

You can't betray every "artistic principle" in the book and then when people complain use the "You can't criticize it; it's art!" defense (not that that defense holds any water anyway).

[Ultra Prism]

Games are made to suit the customers' needs and desires ... but no the endings are so lame that I feel shame to tell anyone about playing ME series ... to find out their choices dont matter ... ARGHHH i am dying geez

[GreyhameBioware]

Art has been changed in the past due to fan/consumer feedback. If art is not considered good, people just don't make money off it, and it wallows away in the artists basement no matter how 'artsy' it is. If the artist can't take critiques and defends their art saying that it means something to them, so they won't change it, that's their prerogative, but they may never ever make money just doing art.

An author who write horrible endings for their books and will never consider changing them will probably never get published no matter how good the rest of the book is.

Art is not something that can't be criticized and can't be asked to be changed. Using that defense shows a lack of understand of what art is.

Modifié par GreyhameBioware, 20 mars 2012 - 01:40 .

[MB957]

GreyhameBioware wrote...

Art has been changed in the past due to fan/consumer feedback. If art is not considered good, people just don't make money off it, and it wallows away in the artists basement no matter how 'artsy' it is. If the artist can't take critiques and defends their art saying that it means something to them, so they won't change it, that's their prerogative, but they may never ever make money just doing art.

An author who write horrible endings for their books and will never consider changing them will probably never get published no matter how good the rest of the book is.

Art is not something that can't be criticized and can't be asked to be changed. Using that defense shows a lack of understand of what art is.

Indeed!

as an artist..let me say that art can be criticized!  alot...lol!!  as you said...to use the "art cant be criticized" defense does show a misunderstanding of what art is.  and it must come from non artists, because EVERY  artist I know, understands the role criticizim plays in our work.

heck..in school...we spent entire days "critiqueing" each others work..  artists are trained to criticize..lol..art!

so ..as an artist..when I hear "art cant be criticized because its art"  I just giggle a lil bit and wish I could invite them to a galley opening..lol

[1stormseekr]

Video games are consumer products that are made up of different forms of "art". The gaming "art" industry is the only one where you can't look,feel,or listen to the complete work of "art" before you buy it.
If they want to call it art find,but let me pay the price of a movie ticket to and play the whole thing before i decide to buy it.

[AveryChim]

Philosophically speaking, an essential, defining characteristic of 'art' is that it serves no practical function. Therefore, it can be argued that any work made to generate profit, can't be classified as art.

Also given that mass effect 3's main purpose was to generate profit, there's no reason to use "it's art" as a defense. I don't think there should be any ethical problems with changing the ending of a commercial product. Consumers paid for the product, meaning they should have the right to complain as much as they want if they are not satisfied with the product.

Sure, we can't demand it, it's ultimately up to the developer/publisher, but we can inform them that if they wish to keep this group of customers, they need to address our problems with the ending.

[SomeoneStoleMyName]

That this is art:

http://en.wikipedia....untain_(Duchamp)

Proves an "art" excuse is pointless.

[Klijpope]

Art has to be criticised (in the full meaning of that term). It is what it is for; one of art's purposes is to stimulate discussion, debate, and controversy (job done, in this case ).

And it is true that art can be altered after it is 'finished', and many works have been. People have used LOTR as a comparison, but The Hobbit is somewhat better. After LOTR had been published he went back to make it segue better into the follow up. He had to stop when he realised he was drastically changing the tone of the piece, from fairytale whimsy to dark and sombre - so in the end, he just changed a few details so that the continuity worked.

But a large campaign demanding that a creator MUST change their ending is unprecedented. Even us Han-shot-firsters are not actively campaigning for Lucas to stop messing with his work - we just like to complain loudly about it. This is... interesting.

[Klijpope]

AveryChim wrote...
Philosophically speaking, an essential, defining characteristic of 'art' is that it serves no practical function. Therefore, it can be argued that any work made to generate profit, can't be classified as art.

Not true whatsoever. Disproved many times in this thread already.

SomeoneStoleMyName wrote...

That this is art: 

http://en.wikipedia....untain_(Duchamp)

Proves an "art" excuse is pointless.

You're going to need to explain what you mean here; as it is, you just look like you're showing your ignorance as to what 'Fountain' was actually about.

[SomeoneStoleMyName]

Klijpope wrote...

AveryChim wrote...
Philosophically speaking, an essential, defining characteristic of 'art' is that it serves no practical function. Therefore, it can be argued that any work made to generate profit, can't be classified as art.

Not true whatsoever. Disproved many times in this thread already.

SomeoneStoleMyName wrote...

That this is art: 

http://en.wikipedia....untain_(Duchamp)

Proves an "art" excuse is pointless.

You're going to need to explain what you mean here; as it is, you just look like you're showing your ignorance as to what 'Fountain' was actually about.

I mean, if Bioware is gonna say "Its art" about the ending. And art can be a urinal. Then that means Bioware could replace the starchild with a glowing turd and still call it art. It wont make it less bad.

Actually, replacing the starkid with a glowing turd would be an improvement, because that would bring comic relief - so you can laugh abit to counter the crying after watching the credits in disbelief at how horrible the ending was.

[Avissel]

You can't really defend anything on the bases of "it's art"
Because what exactly "art" is, is a highly subjective thing.

[sodoffusillygit]

Generalizing games as art is like generalizing movies as art. Some games can be considered art. Flower and Braid come to mind. But would anybody call Call of Duty or Gears of War art? Does anybody consider anything Michael Bay has made art?

[Klijpope]

SomeoneStoleMyName wrote...
I mean, if Bioware is gonna say "Its art" about the ending. And art can be a urinal. Then that means Bioware could replace the starchild with a glowing turd and still call it art. It wont make it less bad.

Actually, replacing the starkid with a glowing turd would be an improvement, because that would bring comic relief - so you can laugh abit to counter the crying after watching the credits in disbelief at how horrible the ending was.

OK, so you don't understand what Marcel Duchamp was on about then. Fair enough, but an uninformed opinion not as useful as an informed one.

sodoffusillygit wrote...

Generalizing games as art is like generalizing movies as art. Some games can be considered art. Flower and Braid come to mind. But would anybody call Call of Duty or Gears of War art? Does anybody consider anything Michael Bay has made art?

So who decides what is art? You?

All films are art, all books are art, all games are art. Whether they are good or bad art is open to debate, but trying to say one film/book/game is art and one isn't is an endlessly pointless argument.

[Smiley556]

The thing is. Mass effect is a product, we are the consumer. Wether or not you consider it art. We are paying customers and that gives us the right to complain if we are not satisfied with the product. Even if you want to consider Mass effect art, if I were to commission an artpiece and it turns out wrong (ie. the things said about mass effects ending in interviews before we bought it, that didnt turn out to be true) I will tell the artist to redo it or fix it. I'm the one paying for it. But the comparisons to the mona lisa, I dont know about you, but I didnt pay to have the mona lisa made so I have no right to complain about it.

[Yttrian]

Art is not beyond criticism.

Whether ME3 is or isn't has no consequence.

This is a red herring... let this thread die.

[Klijpope]

Smiley556 wrote...

The thing is. Mass effect is a product, we are the consumer. Wether or not you consider it art. We are paying customers and that gives us the right to complain if we are not satisfied with the product. Even if you want to consider Mass effect art, if I were to commission an artpiece and it turns out wrong (ie. the things said about mass effects ending in interviews before we bought it, that didnt turn out to be true) I will tell the artist to redo it or fix it. I'm the one paying for it. But the comparisons to the mona lisa, I dont know about you, but I didnt pay to have the mona lisa made so I have no right to complain about it.

Just out of interest, do you ask for a refund from the cinema after watching a movie you hate (or better still, a movie you quite like, but with an ending that appalls you)?

I was forced to watch Transformers 3 at the cinema (I made a friend go and see X-Men: First class). To me, that film was not merely awful, it was insulting, and once Nimoy had used "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few", it had molested my childhood. I spent the final 20 minutes screaming obscenities at the screen at the top of my voice (no one else could hear - the film was too loud).

Yet, I did not ask for my money back. I had watched it until the end. Neither did I start a campaign to get that line excised from the movie. It was three hours of pure drek.

On the other hand, with ME3, for even the most vocal detractors, it was 20-40 hours of fun, or even brilliance, marred by 10 minutes of debatable narrative and a goofed up cinematic.

[twystedspyder]

My problem with he "art" "defense" is that it is a falicy in and of itself. It just doesn't apply in any real sense.

If we were to apply it, we then basically assume that game developers are free to promise quality but deliver bunk while the consumer has no right to voice their dissaproval and request some sort of adequate resolution. "Our customers cannot voice their dislike of our story because we have artistic freedom." No, you are free to present us with an amaturish piece of rushed writing but we are also free to call you out on it.

Welcome to the concept of the marketplace. Welcome to the free world.

There is simply no defending art if the artist is Requiring money for the privilage of viewing their product. I'm an artist, and if I am paid to paint a mural of an ocean scene for a seafood resturaunt and I decide to put a big mermaid Jesus there that is depicted turning all the fish into pork, the resturaunt owner that hired me is well within their rights to demand I change it or ask for their money back. I can always make him take me to court and try to prove something like they weren't specific enough with their request, but I can't just say, hey man, "art" and expect them to say, "oooooh, yeah sorry, I didn't realize this was art. Do you want a little extra cash to paint some sunfish a few months from now but instead just add some smurfs or maybe some sexual organs hidden in the coral?"... I can also just refuse to be paid or refuse the job entirely, but once I enter into a business transaction, I have accepted a responsibility as a producer on behalf of a paying consumer. Artists can take risks for the sake of their freedom of expression, sure but they are risking their livelyhood when the do so.

100 years from now you can look back at the Mass Effect Series and defend it as art, but the living artist is still responsible for engaging fairly in the free market... Unless they are content to starve for the sake of their artistic freedom.

Sheesh.

** EDIT ** Kind of went on a rant there  I'm actually not a supporter of requesting your money back for a movie/book that you don't like, though I feel that you would certainly be within your rights to do so as a consumer(good luck with that).  The same applies to Mass Effect 3.  I am in my rights to vocalize my disgust with how Bioware phoned in an ending and even request that they consider fixing what they sold us.  I can also chose never to purchase their products blindly ever again.  That is my right.  Just as it is their right to simply ignore me as a customer.  I do not, however, feel that any sort of refund is justifiable, at least not in this case.  The game itself was well worth playing for the gameplay/story up until the ending, though not worth owning for many as the replay value of the entire series has been ruined in my opinion.  I've purchased plenty of games that I was unhappy with, but  none that were the finale of a series that I've passionately cared about for 5 years.  **END EDIT**

Modifié par twystedspyder, 20 mars 2012 - 03:23 .

[AveryChim]

Klijpope wrote...

AveryChim wrote...
Philosophically speaking, an essential, defining characteristic of 'art' is that it serves no practical function. Therefore, it can be argued that any work made to generate profit, can't be classified as art.

Not true whatsoever. Disproved many times in this thread already.

Disproved by what? Your assumptions that "art" exists in mass media?

Also, its a theroy, there's nothing to disprove (you can argue against it) unless you can quantify a constant quality that can define art as a whole. It is arguable whether or not games can be classified as art.

[Koolgool]

Ugh, discussions on art... they were never go anywhere because art is a very opinionated thing. If you don't think it's art, it's not art to you, but it might be to someone else. Art is so vague, there's nothing out there that you can say "yep, this is art, no one can disagree with that" because there will always be someone who doesn't agree... and they're not wrong for it.

EVEN if Mass Effect 3 is "art", it's a game first. With how the game is wrapped up so sloppily, I can't call it art. It's a product we paid for. Not just sixty dollars (or eighty dollars), but all the money we spent on the previous two games and DLC. We were promised a branching ending where our decisions actually mattered, and we didn't get any of that. We got three different colored versions of one ending that leaves EVERYTHING to speculation, wrapping up virtually nothing.

Modifié par Koolgool, 20 mars 2012 - 03:11 .