190 réponses à ce sujet

[Lassandra]

Yeah you could say this wasn't the same because of the trilogy but there was a great deal of pressure to keep Fallout 3 within the same spirit as Fallout and Fallout 2. There were a few things they missed but overall they got it right. Dunno. Strange comparison here. Focusing on the owning up to mistakes is really the relevant thread though.

[Kastrenzo]

Vurculac wrote...

blacqout wrote...

All Fallout 3 did was resurrect your character and then drop him in an entirely unrelated questline.

Would that satisfy those of you "demanding" a new ending to Mass Effect 3. Seriously, what Bethesda did does not set a precedent for what you're trying to achieve here.

Of course not...Fallout 3 had more of a sandbox feel to it so no, and ending like that would not work for ME 3.

It's just the principle.

Both games are RPGs, but that's probably all they share in common.

FO3's extension was more out of a wish for people to be able to continue roaming around and playing after the ending.

But the principle still remains, The developers listened to a seemingly simple request. this is yet to be seen in this instance, Coming from a Company that brags about how it's made monumental changes to the series based on it's fans. *Tali and Garrus were -never- intended to be potential LIs, but because of fan interest/pressure, they did it anyway*

Now they've got the biggest uproar/whatever you want to call it in this series history, well... we'll see

[Kastrenzo]

All Dead wrote...

blacqout wrote...
For BioWare to "fix" their ending will require significantly more work.

So it requires more work to add an extended epilogue to your ME 3 endgame (and possibly rewrite/re-VO/re-animate the Cataylyst scene with already available art assets) than to craft an entirely new large quest like Broken Steel?


Right.

Jeez most of the real work involves people sitting around a table discussing the plot forks. I'm not an expert or a profesisonal game developer, but I know enough that to make it in game, it's just a matter of getting your resources, putting them to use, and then polishing it

I mean, I picture Infinity ward coming up with map ideas by having a bunch of devs sitting around a table snorting cocaine going "OK GUISE WHERES SOME COOL PLACES TO HAVE A GUNFIGHT?"

[Zenyattaa]

sangy wrote...

Thanks for the post OP.

That is cool that Todd Howard can be so down to earth and appreciate his fans enough to restructure his team's work to make a partially broken game complete. Of course, I'm sure some folks complained it was probably fine the way it was. I'm sure the majority was on ship for the change.

I'd like to think some at Bioware are like this and would be willing to do this for the fans. It's not asking them to remake the whole game because most of it was awesome. With "16" different endings I'm sure we can keep what those who like the ending want and alter at least half of those to get what the majority wants.

IGN says they shouldn't change "their" game. Well, I'd agree with that if they made it for themselves. They made this game to sell. Therefore, you want to make it something that the customers love. Take care of your customers and they'll take care of you.

Problem is 95%of us bought it already, thus its sold. They don't care beyond that.
The ending quite frankly sucked. I felt like I was bombing the entire galaxy back to the stoneage. An issue made worse because, as I later found out...its completely unavoidable. No matter what you do the mass relays are destroyed. (That in a  nutshell is why I detest the ending. Huge build up. Absolutely no satisfaction what so ever. ME1 and 2 I still play because they're enjoyable. ME3, not a chance in hell I'll be replaying it anytime soon.)

So basically we have the remains of the entire galaxy's fleet stranded in the sol system with no way home.

Aside from milking malcontented customers through DLC that -might- make the ending less bitter, but probably wont, they have no reason to care, at all. This isn't about closure perse. Its about giant glaring plotholes and an ending that makes less sense than a soup-sandwitch.

Modifié par Zenyattaa, 20 mars 2012 - 11:10 .

[Kastrenzo]

lagged double post. whoops

Modifié par Kastrenzo, 20 mars 2012 - 11:09 .

[Qutayba]

BioWare used to be up there with Bethesda in my book. The gap between them (in my affections, anyway) seems to be widening. They're not perfect, but Bethesda still "gets" their fans.

Whether they really like the existing ending or think that withholding the ending (a la Indoc Theory) is a clever idea, BioWare has clearly succumbed to a solipsistic group-think. If the Retake movement can shock them out of that, we have done our job, and maybe, just maybe, will save the reputation of the company.

[blacqout]

All Dead wrote...

blacqout wrote...
For BioWare to "fix" their ending will require significantly more work.

So it requires more work to add an extended epilogue to your ME 3 endgame (and possibly rewrite/re-VO/re-animate the Cataylyst scene with already available art assets) than to craft an entirely new large quest like Broken Steel?


Right.

Uhm, yeah? You are familiar with what was actually changed in Fallout 3, right.

Broken Steel was an add-on just like Operation Anchorage and Mothership Zeta. Both were entirely unrelated to the main story, and would have been released even if the miniscule change to the game's ending wasn't created.

Broken Steel was not, in any way, a revised ending for Fallout 3.

[vometia]

Zenyattaa wrote...

Problem is 95%of us bought it already, thus its sold. They don't care beyond that.

It's all very well for them to say "we've got your money now lol", but it's not a good way of getting repeat business.  Yeah, I'm complaining now and, yeah, I'll get fed up sooner or later, but that doesn't mean I've gone back to being a good little customer: it means I've simply gone.  I'm not going to be so petulant as to say "I'll never buy another EA game again!" but it'll be significantly harder to sell to me if they don't sort this out, and I'll certainly buy fewer games from EA.  It's worth spending money to keep your customers happy if you want to keep them, and trying to fob us off with non-answers and promotions they would've done anyway is just adding insult to injury.

They really need to sort it out, and sooner rather than later.  But, hey, if hubris is their thing I'm fine with that too, just not in a way that involves parting with more money.

[vometia]

blacqout wrote...

Broken Steel was not, in any way, a revised ending for Fallout 3.

I'd say my character no longer being dead was a bit of a revision, but maybe I'm just being picky.

[Yalision]

blacqout wrote...

All Dead wrote...

blacqout wrote...
For BioWare to "fix" their ending will require significantly more work.

So it requires more work to add an extended epilogue to your ME 3 endgame (and possibly rewrite/re-VO/re-animate the Cataylyst scene with already available art assets) than to craft an entirely new large quest like Broken Steel?


Right.

Uhm, yeah? You are familiar with what was actually changed in Fallout 3, right.

Broken Steel was an add-on just like Operation Anchorage and Mothership Zeta. Both were entirely unrelated to the main story, and would have been released even if the miniscule change to the game's ending wasn't created.

Broken Steel was not, in any way, a revised ending for Fallout 3.

I agree with you 100%. It wasn't a revised ending in the sense that you turn on the purifier and you get a different ending sequence thann you did originally and its still game over. However, it did change the ending. Why? Because the ending no longer exists and you are allowed to experience the "epilogue" to your actions first hand following that incident.

Lets not pretend to know what goes on behind closed doors, though, in order to create content. Unless you happen to work for a AAA game studio as a senior developer in your field we have no idea what tools or just how much work goes into any individual piece of content they plan to make.

And I mean no offense in this response, it's easy to look at something you disagree with and keep pushing your opinion but at some point you have to agree to disagree and find a common ground to keep conversation healthy and productive. The forums are full of people passionate about what they want to see right now and it's a good idea to stop and say, "hey, you know this company found itself in a similar situation in regards to the finale of their game, should they change it in any way/remove it/etc, or stand by their product?" Bethesda has set the precedent and fans unhappy with the conclusion such as myself hope to have it updated if not changed completely.

There is no invalid opinion on either side, because they are just that. Opinions.

Modifié par Yalision, 20 mars 2012 - 11:20 .

[Evil_medved]

blacqout wrote...

All Dead wrote...

blacqout wrote...
For BioWare to "fix" their ending will require significantly more work.

So it requires more work to add an extended epilogue to your ME 3 endgame (and possibly rewrite/re-VO/re-animate the Cataylyst scene with already available art assets) than to craft an entirely new large quest like Broken Steel?


Right.

Uhm, yeah? You are familiar with what was actually changed in Fallout 3, right.

Broken Steel was an add-on just like Operation Anchorage and Mothership Zeta. Both were entirely unrelated to the main story, and would have been released even if the miniscule change to the game's ending wasn't created.

Broken Steel was not, in any way, a revised ending for Fallout 3.

Wat. Broken steel finished story, giving you choice to destroy BoS Or Enclave, its also showed how capital wastelad startes to change with clean (or poisoned) water flowing.

[LpBronco]

I played the first 2 games a dozen times between them and this one left me with "why bother". I admit to being disturbed by some of the choices I faced and watching characters to whom I'd grown attached die and the ending put me off entirely. It's been almost 2 weeks now since I completed the first play through and I still can't get the game off my mind. I payed a premium price for the game and I'd pay that much again to have a conclusion I could live with.

[Kastrenzo]

Qutayba wrote...

BioWare used to be up there with Bethesda in my book. The gap between them (in my affections, anyway) seems to be widening. They're not perfect, but Bethesda still "gets" their fans.

Whether they really like the existing ending or think that withholding the ending (a la Indoc Theory) is a clever idea, BioWare has clearly succumbed to a solipsistic group-think. If the Retake movement can shock them out of that, we have done our job, and maybe, just maybe, will save the reputation of the company.

Well, the thing is Bioware games look to the fans for their opinions on new content.
Bethesda, with the exception of occasional DLC, Leaves it entierley up to the community to make what they want, there are a lot of hugely ambitious projects for Skyrim, Oblivion, and Fallout NV/3, from community mod teams.

needless to say, that just doesn't work here.
People write their own stories with what they're given, but they still become incredibly attached to their charachter, their friends and relationships in that story.

I mean. Skyrim was good in it's own league and all, but comparing their companion system to ME3s is comparing bananas to grapes. they're too different.

That being said, I'd side with ME every day on the matter of charachterization. I don't think I ever got so attached to a video game charachter as I did with Tali'Zorah in ME2/ME3. I can't say the same for the bethesda games, considering most Charachters have like 5 lines of dialogue.

[Kastrenzo]

Damn this site is really starting to lag,

Double post deleted

Modifié par Kastrenzo, 20 mars 2012 - 11:35 .

[Silver-Gryphon]

From my perspective at least the vanilla Fallout 3 ending made sense. Ok yeah it was a bit bleak but new concepts and characters weren't dumped on you at the last moment, there were no plot holes you could drive a cruise ship through and most importantly there was closure for the whole "Lone Wanderer" story arc.

If Bethesda felt the need to improve upon that then why the hell can't Bioware admit at the very least that their cherished ME3 endings are flawed, at best.

[Seryndras]

Lunaluxlepus wrote...

 For those who haven't seen it, please spare some time watching

Todd Howard's DICE 2012 presentation. 
( )

Not only its educative, its full with humor and candor that I really appreciated.

After watching that, I couldn't help but respect and admire Mr. Howard's and Bethesda Softworks' game development principles and core ideas. 


In the video he says that, one of the most important thing in a game is that the gamer should be able to take pride in what he/she have achieved in the game. Ego-striking design, he called it.

ME3 ending severely lacked that part.

Just finished watching, fantastic keynote! Quoting you again so people might see the link, really worth your time I think.

[Skirlasvoud]

I didn't even think the ending of fallout was that bad.

They didn't hammer me and raise my hopes with advertisements promising different endings. I didn't invest in a Triology. My Avatar was faceless.
FA3 was... acceptable. Hell, it even had more Endings than ME3 had and they didn't even try.


And that they'd now reconsider and do it so honestly? I have to admit I'm not the biggest FA3 fan so it didn't affect me much, but I have MUCH more respect for those fellow than I do currently Bioware.

[DomerPyle]

Fulgrim88 wrote...

Kyazain wrote...

..Ever had any emotional attachment to an Elder Scrolls character? Name one...

Adoring Fan. i was emotionally attached to throwing him off Dive Rock.

Modifié par DomerPyle, 20 mars 2012 - 11:41 .

[Priisus]

*contains Fallout 3 spoilers obviously*

I was one of those who actually don't buy Broken Steel because I was perfectly fine with Fallout 3's vanilla ending. Yeah Fawkes... what the hell dude, just walk in there for me and Sarah because you're like radiation immune and you'll save both of us right there by walking inside. Didn't happen of course... so my good karma Lone Wanderer chose to take the sacrifice because what Fawkes said made sense too... It was her parent's work, and she should be the one to finish it, it's her destiny. At least, she left the world as a better place, she restored a crucial way of life to the Capital Wasteland. Maybe the epilogue slides help... not because we want the devs to left the world open to our imagination. We want to be told because it's the world that the devs created and that we players shaped. So yes my Lone Wanderer died but the epilogues let me know what happen to the world that my Lone Wanderer helped to shape.

Now if we look at Mass Effect 3, you can say that the current ending as it is, has Shepard in quite a similar situation as the Lone Wanderer. Maybe it's his/her destiny after all and that s/he should be the person who shaped the future of the galaxy, organics and synthetics... even if there are other alternatives... it's his/her destiny.. s/he should end it... right right right?!

Well eff that...

That was my reasoning initially but there's no way I can accept the ME3 ending as it is. Too many freaking plotholes (which had been discussed to death) and I completely agree with all of them. In the end I just felt that whatever Shepard accomplished during the course of ME3 (the Krogan-Turian conflict, the Genophage, the Quarian-Geth conflict)... All those legacy are undone whichever color endings I chose... So what Shepard did throughout the whole ME, ME and ME3... none of them matter because of the state of the galaxy that s/he chose at the ending. This is not closure at all.

I've been a long-time Bethesda follower... Why their current-gen games are so successful is because they look at community's contribution... Just look at the difference between Morrowind and Skyrim, so many features in Skyrim are actually Morrowind modder's ideas. Although I don't like Skyrim and Oblivion as much as I like Morrowind, the core game is still there and I am greatly enjoying them.

They can say well this is how we envisioned Fallout 3 to be and we want to keep it as it is. It is enough for people like me who are fine with the vanilla ending. But I am glad that they actually went out to produce an alternative for people who don't, especially since this is the last I'll see of that character. And this is the Lone Wanderer alone we're talking, one game is enough for us to get attached to our PCs... But Shepard... it is one hell of 3 games/5 years ride with him/her. I think Shepard deserves better... that's all.

[die-yng]

Said this since the first day.
All this artisitc license stuff is bull**** and changing the ending won't set any bad example, as it has been already done before more than once.

Bioware should man up and confess.
"Yes we screwed up and not only made all endings basically the same, but our intented ending clearly is not what by far the majority of the fanbase wants.
We disappointed you guys, but we'll make it up to you."

What good is BW's pride, if it destroys the trust and the good relationship between customer and developer and severely diminishs your fanbase?

[SomeoneStoleMyName]

Its risky, and it takes courage - to admit you are wrong. Personally I have been very vocal about my dislike for the ME3 ending as has many others. I agree though that we should give Bioware some time.

If Bioware can man up and admit they messed up aswell (regardless of if they actually change the ending or not) that would be a huge step towards recounciling with the fans. But giving us the silent treatment and pretend nothing is wrong is condecending and rude and only further fuels the flame.

Have alot of fans been childish and rude? sure. But Bioware is acting just like it.

Ive always looked up to Bioware, but the ending they served us in addition to their reaction (or lack of it) is unacceptable.

[Wildhide]

The only 2 games I've purchased at full price in the past year were Skyrim and Mass Effect 3. I regret one of those choices, and it's not the one I put over a hundred hours into and still play sometimes. It's the one with the ending so bad I can't convince myself to play its prequels.

[Trishot]

I never really liked the "controls" of Bethesda games. But they acknowledge their mistakes, that deserves praise. BioWare can learn from this