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[Imrahil_]

Corto81 wrote...

LegendaryBlade wrote...

Mike Laidlaw said in an interview with Gamespot that a return to the RPG style of Dragon Age: Origins is unlikely, proclaiming "The big key is to not adjust 180 degrees again, because we've done this."
- http://www.gamespot....oughts-6305575/  There's a few other snippits in there that are worth reading.

Companies are just dumb sometimes, CEOs who don't understand their market, managers who don't love it or to present their ideas to the bosses.
I'm 100% certain that most of the team that built DA:Origins knows that DA2 is just a mediocre game, unworthy of being mentioned with past Bioware products.

Hence, I'm not speaking out against Mike Laidlaw personally, because he might be saying what he has to because of the bosses, but seriously, HOW DOES THAT QUOTE MAKE SENSE BIOWARE?


"We made a hugely successful game, which got universal critical acclaim, fans loved it and it sold like a motherf*****.
Then we made a 180 degree turn and made a sequel that was, ultimately, a flop. And a bad game.
(Your customers aren't wrong, your sales numbers aren't wrong. It was a flop.
Otherwise we would still be seeing DLCs popping out)
But are we going to make another 180 degree turn and go back to the methods we were using when we built a massively successful game?
Hell no, we're sticking with the crappy method and trying to refine it."

That just makes zero sense.

I agree.  It seems like, "sure they're listening", but the problem is that they're dismissing what they hear.  I don't understand this mindset either.

"We made a game that was a success, by any measure.  Then we made a game that failed, by any measure.  But we're not going back to what worked, we're ploughing ahead with what failed, just tweaking it!"

I... I... just don't get it.  I come back here every once in a while to express my opinion, but it's never actually listened to.  Acknowledged, maybe, but not really listened to.

I keep hoping they'll actually listen, but they don't.  I didn't buy DAII.  It seems more & more that I'm not going to buy DAIII.  Because they don't listen, they only hear.

[LegendaryBlade]

Huntress wrote...

LegendaryBlade wrote...

So lets get on with the massive topic edit, I didn't expect this thread to expand like it did but if it's going to be discussed, it needs an OP that really opens up discussion.

Mike Laidlaw said in an interview with Gamespot that a return to the RPG style of Dragon Age: Origins is unlikely, proclaiming "The big key is to not adjust 180 degrees again, because we've done this."
- http://www.gamespot....oughts-6305575/  There's a few other snippits in there that are worth reading.

Dragonage III is going to be a failure for just this reason, at very least in my opinion. We already know that Dragonage II did not reach the critical acclaim of it's predeccessor, sitting a full nine points lower than it on Metacritic (91 vs 82), which is up from 79 that it was a bit earlier this year. It's no secret that a lot of Origins fans were dissapointed in DA2.

More specificaly, fans of DA:O who are hoping that we will get the proper sequel we wanted in DA3 are more than likely going to be sorely dissapointed. The idea that "DA3 will be what DA2 should of been" is already spreading, and we hardly have any other proof beyond the vague promises that that's going to be the case. I don't have the article link here with me(I will find it later), but in a later article to the one I posted Bioware said that RPGs in that older style are less relevant on the market(despite reception showing the opposite). DA3 will be more of what DA2 was, and that's fine for people who enjoy DAs(Regardless of how they felt about DA:O)

But it should go without saying that if you love DA:O and hate DA2, you will hate DA3 unless steps are taken by the developing staff to greatly improve it over 2.

EDIT: Overhaul Games is releasing an "Enhanced Edition" of Baldur's Gate 1 & 2 later this year (Summer 2012) with hopes to make enough money to build Baldur's Gate 3 in the true spirit of the games that preceed it. If you like DA:O I highly suggest you support them.

1) you are linking a year old review.. I know that things changes every day so am gonna ignore that what was said so long ago.
2) some were dissapointed with Da2, some were dissapointed with DAO, some were dissapointed with Skyrim should I continue? nah here is a hint: everyone is different while some didn't like da2, others did like da2! the same can be said for the others games I have mention.
3) You can tell me how good or bad DA3 is goign to be? because.. da3 is probably still a thought.. can you read minds? or are you more confortable reading coffee cup?
4) Ok you convince me I'll buy Baldurs gate 1 &2 because that will give some capital to make a better DA3.

1) If the official statement is no longer valid, then they should say so. It seems like they may very well stick to their guns though.
2) The difference is that both Skyrim and DA:O were massive critical successes sitting at 91+ points on Metacritic. DA2 fluctuates between an 81 and a 79. So, between a C+ and a B-. Medeocre
3) I can make predictions based off of available information.
4) Buying BG1&2 EE wont raise revenue for DA3 because they are handled by an entirely different company. Overhaul Games.

[Fallstar]

I liked Origins enough that I've stuck around checking these forums even a year after the release of DA:2, if Origins hadn't been such a great experience I'd have given up on this franchise after DA:2's release. And so long as the pre-release trailers and such don't suggest the game is DA:2 mk2, I will buy DA:3. I assume most of the team from Origins is still working on the DA franchise, so Bioware are still capable of putting out a game of Origins' calibre. Which is good enough for me to take the risk and buy it.

Modifié par DuskWarden, 24 mars 2012 - 02:15 .

[MDarwin]

Well I can't trust EA/BW "Advertising Hype" any longer. Therefor, I "might" buy DA3 after it is released. Even if it means that I will miss out on "Awesome Pre-Order" Hyped Goodies!

[Ryllen Laerth Kriel]

Bioware has lost my faith through the DA 2 process. I didn't pre-order DA 2 or even buy it because of quite a few changes they made during development. Playing the demo and trying out the game/getting feedback from friends helped seal the deal on release. I haven't even bought ME 3 yet, and I liked the first two games. I'll likely get ME 3 eventually just to see the end of the story but the Dragon Age thread is dead to me until I see some new life breathed into it.

I'm not afraid of changing successful formulas, change is a natural part of the universe. Afterall there is nothing that is perfect or sacred. There is, however, good change and bad change. DA 2 was full of bad change in my opinion and I can't see myself buying another Dragon Age title unless there are alot of new changes in quality control at Bioware. Aesthetics come and go with the players but I'll play a well built game that doesn't totally thrill me any day. Build a game well again and my faith will be restored Bioware...just don't ask me to blindly trust the company ever again. Reputation is something that is earned over time (therefore priceless) and DA 2 tossed out that reputation for me.

[Relshar]

Ryllen Laerth Kriel wrote...
 I'll likely get ME 3 eventually just to see the end of the story but the Dragon Age thread is dead to me until I see some new life breathed into it.
.

If you want a good ending in ME3, may I suggest you do not finish the game?

[LegendaryBlade]

Relshar wrote...

Ryllen Laerth Kriel wrote...
 I'll likely get ME 3 eventually just to see the end of the story but the Dragon Age thread is dead to me until I see some new life breathed into it.
.

If you want a good ending in ME3, may I suggest you do not finish the game?

Let Marauder Shields kill you 

[Adanu]

Personally, I hope they do a hybrid with DA3. The style of DA2 with a hybrid of gameplay.

[Mike3207]

I don't think there will be as many preorders as previously, people are going to wait on word of mouth. A fair amount of people waited to buy Skyrim until word spread around it was a really good game, me included. There was a bit of wanting to wait and see due to the disappointment a fair amount of people had due to DA2. DA2 fans will buy DA3, no doubt. It's the DAO fans who bought DA2 and were disappointed and the DAO fans who didn't buy who will be inclined to pass on DA3 if it follows the DA2 path.

My point being-if you fix all the bugs and issues with DA2 and bring it over as DA3-it's unlikely disgruntled DAO fans will be inclined to buy. This is the problem I see with Bioware-they think if you fix DA2 all the DAO fans will want to buy that product. I enjoyed DAO, but I'd want to see a product closer to DAO than DA2 for me to purchase DA3.

[Adanu]

Why are people so afraid of change? DO you really want the same thing over and over and over? Go back and play BG if you want the same thing. GO back and play DAO if you want the same thing.

[Pasquale1234]

Adanu wrote...

Why are people so afraid of change? DO you really want the same thing over and over and over? Go back and play BG if you want the same thing. GO back and play DAO if you want the same thing.

I don't think it's fear of change so much as differences in tastes and personal preferences.

If someone dislikes seafood and their favorite steakhouse changes into a seafood restaurant, they are probably not going to want to eat there anymore.

[Yrkoon]

Adanu wrote...

Why are people so afraid of change? DO you really want the same thing over and over and over? Go back and play BG if you want the same thing. GO back and play DAO if you want the same thing.

Thats... not much of an argument. 

For that matter, if we're so hungry for change, why don't we  just drop Dragon age completely and go play something  very different....  like a Shooter, or a Sports game?   That would be a change, wouldn't it?

  But again, that's not much of an argument.  The bottom line here is that the masses do, in fact,  positively respond to  consistancy, rather than change.   Especially when it comes to gaming.  Consistancy from one title to the next is how an IP's fan base grows.  Look at the Elder Scrolls.  Look at Call of Duty. 

But hey, I agree with you.  We need  change.  Message to Bioware:    Please CHANGE.  Make sure  DA3 is nothing like DA2 because I don't want to play that same  crap game again.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 24 mars 2012 - 08:03 .

[Meris]

Adanu wrote...

Why are people so afraid of change? DO you really want the same thing over and over and over? Go back and play BG if you want the same thing. GO back and play DAO if you want the same thing.

If people wanted Baldur's Gate they wouldn't play DA:O. If you think people want DA:O 2, you're sorely mistaken. What we expected was simply a sequel to Dragon Age: Origins that was at least as good as, but hopefully bigger and better. With, hopefully, more player agency.

Instead we got a game about the futility of your actions and less customization.

Modifié par Meris, 24 mars 2012 - 08:32 .

[Realmzmaster]

I want change. I want DA3 to be the blend of DAO and DA2. I like certain aspects of both games. Hopefully the blend will meet my expectations.

[Huntress]

LegendaryBlade wrote...

1) If the official statement is no longer valid, then they should say so. It seems like they may very well stick to their guns though.
2) The difference is that both Skyrim and DA:O were massive critical successes sitting at 91+ points on Metacritic. DA2 fluctuates between an 81 and a 79. So, between a C+ and a B-. Medeocre
3) I can make predictions based off of available information.
4) Buying BG1&2 EE wont raise revenue for DA3 because they are handled by an entirely different company. Overhaul Games.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1) everything changes.. sadly and YES bioware already gave the statment and NO am not going to link it for you, you should have know by now anyway.

2) the similarities is that both were boo and "better games" were named and compared to them, people found mediocrity on them aswell for the if you didn't know... but, guess what.. the grass is always greenner the other side, and when people talk out of their b.. and don't like what they read they go: trololol point to fishes jumping in a river or remember that going to the deeproads was actually "fun" meh! When in reallity one game is full of not very memorable characters and the other one is full of mod skiping stuff...

3)The information thats out there is bioware stoped making stuff for da2 and want everyone to check pax east. is that new to you? Strange .. you didn't predict that something like that would happen.. i didnt... but am not prophet... by the way the way you are making predictions is very similar to  Prophets of doom.

Prophet1:The earth is Flat!..
Person: what about mountains?
prophet1: they are obstacles!

4) And you really thought i didn't knew that?

[ReshyShira]

I'm expecting another flop. DA2 was a flop, ME3 destroyed the series with the terrible ending, and there is no indication of this attitude changing. I will not be pre-ordering it, and only if it's a return to 'origin' style gameplay I will not be picking it up.

Sorry bioware that's the truth, I played Origins through to the end several times but I couldn't even get past the first six hours of 2.

[Zubie]

Adanu wrote...

Why are people so afraid of change? DO you really want the same thing over and over and over? Go back and play BG if you want the same thing. GO back and play DAO if you want the same thing.

So then why are you asking for more of DA2's style?

I don't think many people care if the games change here and there. Though changing most of what made DAO successful in the first place, after just one game mind you, was a little mind boggling. But like I said, I don't care if the game changes a bit. just so happens DA2's changes were bad.

Modifié par easygame88, 24 mars 2012 - 09:38 .

[xnode]

Reading on in this thread, as far as what killed DA2 for me was alot of things, However most of those I have read and known to play the dlc's for DA2 made the game what DA2 should have been on it's own merit. Alot of things fixed, nice variances in enviorments etc... I have no doubt they will change things a bit more in DA3, but I understand the comment many don't like about how they won't 180 back to DAO.

If they keep to the ideas that made the DLC alot better, add customization and a few other things I could easily see enjoying DA3. In the end I only wish for land ownership, I think it's time for our RPG's to be bigger ! well ok, at least feel like you are working toward something more in the game Yeah yeah, you know I will push this land ownership deal till the game comes out lol... it would just be epic

[PaddlePop]

Plaguemaster wrote...

A Tale of Fail. Part 2.
Srsly, they failed miserably with DA2 sales and insist on going LESS profitable way and sticking with poor quality product.
Way to go, BioWare. After Mass Effect 3 people will not be as enthusiastic and loyal as before.

At this stage, Bioware has become like Lionhead to me (i.e. a joke). I don't even care about their next games. Dragon Age 3 could as well be Fable 4 for all I care.

[Taritu]

In DA:O, which was originally made for the PC, the consoles had wave attacks due to console limitations, while the PC didn't. Since all games going forward are being made primarily for consoles running on massively outdated hardware, they will all have wave attacks. The issue is whether the wave attacks will be done better (like in the DLC) or with teleporters.)

The Xbox needs a next gen. That will solve a lot of issues (but not the issue of Laidlaw, who I think must be a great person in person, wanting to make action RPGs, and not RPGs.)

As for Knowles, seriously, anyone who has worked in a corp knows that what people say publicly about why they left means nothing. In almost all cases there is no % for someone leaving, or the company, to badmouth each other, none.

As for DA3, it is in the "no preorder" bin, and probably in the bargain bin, bin.

ME3 got a preorder because I was invested in the story of Shepard. Since neither Hawke (who I liked, even if I disliked Act 3) nor the Warden is the protagonist of DA3 and since the world is nowhere near as engaging as the ME universe (its ok, but it doesn't really do it for me), I have no reason to "trust Bioware".

Bioware needs a win with their next game, or the brand is going to start really smelling to high-heaven. And since EA has renamed a pile of studios Bioware...

[kingtigernz]

PaddlePop wrote...

Plaguemaster wrote...

A Tale of Fail. Part 2.
Srsly, they failed miserably with DA2 sales and insist on going LESS profitable way and sticking with poor quality product.
Way to go, BioWare. After Mass Effect 3 people will not be as enthusiastic and loyal as before.

At this stage, Bioware has become like Lionhead to me (i.e. a joke). I don't even care about their next games. Dragon Age 3 could as well be Fable 4 for all I care.

I just can't wait to see the next catch phrases Bioware comes up with for DA3.I certainly hope the awesome button makes another appearance.And you are right Bioware is becoming a joke it's sad really.

[Ariella]

Darth Death wrote...

T3HB3N wrote...

Don't knock it 'til you've tried it.

That theory doesn't work with the current BioWare. They seem to be on a losing streak as of late. Not trying to be a hater, but very hard to maintain faith in them. 

Really? Last I checked ME 3 was busting records left and right, and I haven't seen anything that says TOR is doing poorly. Not only that, the major controversy for ME3 is being dealt with by Bioware in rewriting the ending. Check Kotaku for the details, which includes a letter from Ray.

It isn't Bioware that's on a losing streak but the people who can't change with the times, and when that happens rather than offering contructive criticism we get what happened to Ms. Helpern.

[Adanu]

easygame88 wrote...

Adanu wrote...

Why are people so afraid of change? DO you really want the same thing over and over and over? Go back and play BG if you want the same thing. GO back and play DAO if you want the same thing.

So then why are you asking for more of DA2's style?

I don't think many people care if the games change here and there. Though changing most of what made DAO successful in the first place, after just one game mind you, was a little mind boggling. But like I said, I don't care if the game changes a bit. just so happens DA2's changes were bad.

I'm not saying for more of the same. I'm asking for people to keep an open mind and give things a chance before they pan it if something is different.

I know, it's a hard concept to get.

[Yrkoon]

Ariella wrote...

It isn't Bioware that's on a losing streak but the people who can't change with the times,

The "innovations" argument, is it?  Sales figures don't support your hypothesis.  Maybe because true art is timeless, and will sell regardless of the so-called  "changing times".


 But perhaps we should take this theory of yours to CEOs of franchises who don't do 180s with their sequels.   Lets go  rub Skyrim in Tod Howard's face and try to convince him that its humongous financial success was just an  illusion; that fans  have changed; that the same-old, same-old doesn't cut it anymore.   Or go tell the producers of COD to change with the times since their series of games hasn't changed one bit, even though their games continue to enjoy increasing sales.


Enough of this nonsense.  DA:O worked.  It was a winning formula.  Bioware then changed that formula, and the result was a dramatic drop in sales for the sequel.    Lets connect the dots now, instead of posting  social theory.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 25 mars 2012 - 05:17 .

[Adanu]

Yrkoon wrote...

Ariella wrote...

It isn't Bioware that's on a losing streak but the people who can't change with the times,

The "innovations" argument, is it?  Sales figures don't support your hypothesis.  Maybe because true art is timeless, and will sell regardless of the so-called  "changing times".


 But perhaps we should take this theory of yours to CEOs of franchises who don't do 180s with their sequels.   Lets go  rub Skyrim in Tod Howard's face and try to convince him that its humongous financial success was just an  illusion; that fans  have changed; that the same-old, same-old doesn't cut it anymore.   Or go tell the producers of COD to change with the times since their series of games hasn't changed one bit, even though their games continue to enjoy increasing sales.


Enough of this nonsense.  DA:O worked.  It was a winning formula.  Bioware then changed that formula, and the result was a dramatic drop in sales for the sequel.    Lets connect the dots now, instead of posting  social theory.

the COD devs DID change with the times. It was called Medal of Honor for a while.

DA:O was only tolerable because it was a decent story. I HATED the combat.