285 réponses à ce sujet

[DeinonSlayer]

Only my "idiot Shep" punched him. One got angry but restrained herself, and the other two encouraged the attack (one of whom makes peace, the other siding with the Quarians on account of the Geth VI making it impossible).

According to the Codex, it takes days for the Migrant Fleet to traverse a relay (time they don't have after the dreadnought is knocked out). Even if some flub in the space-time continuum made a withdrawal possible, the Geth would simply remain under Reaper control, and the Migrant Fleet would then be left fully-laden with nowhere to go in a galaxy full of reapers - the exact circumstances which forced them to invade in the first place.

Cheap sentiment aside, retreat is a foolish and short-sighted move. That dreadnought was a lost cause the instant the Geth decided to hand the keys over to the Reapers. Better to destroy it now while you can than let it come back online and start tearing into your only allies in the system once more.

[SinerAthin]

I punched him.

His enthusiasm to destroy the enemy is admirable, but he rushed ahead and almost blew up Shepard, something that would have severely damaged the war effort against the Reapers.

The man lacks patience.
Destroying the Dreadnought was vital, but he should have waited till Shepard & Boarding party was green before blowing it up.

There's a fine line between being rash and careful, and he was too rash.


He is also suicidal.
When he is warned that Reaper upgrades are about to be uploaded into the Geth fleet, he still continues to attack. There is no reason to be found in such a decision other than pure madness.

Modifié par SinerAthin, 21 avril 2013 - 01:25 .

[remydat]

Galbrant wrote...

I'd kill him if they let me... I couldn't care less if the whole Quarian fleet turns against me. Nobody tries to kills the Shepard and gets away with it.... Unless you're Kai Leng with plot armor and the ability to lower everyone's IQ to a single digit.

You put a bullet in Gherel and you tell them, Spectre status confirmed and what are they going to do?  Gherel risked the Galaxy and as a Spectre, I took him down.  Koris, Tali, Raan and Xen don't have the balls to stand up to the Council and I as a Spectre represent the Council.  Hell these dudes don't even have the balls to stand up to me when I allow the Geth upload and their entire fleet becomes a fireworks display in the sky.  Do Tali or Raan get mad at me and attack me?  No, they commit suicide.  Even Legion had the balls to try and choke me out.  The Quarians?  Without Gherel they are puss and boots.

Modifié par remydat, 21 avril 2013 - 01:26 .

[Exile Isan]

Finn the Jakey wrote...
Yes, kill the leader of one of your allies, that'll work out just fine.

Well, isn't that what Garrel tried to do?

[remydat]

Finn the Jakey wrote...

Yes, kill the leader of one of your allies, that'll work out just fine.

You mean like how Gherel tried to kill me?  As a Spectre, I am well within my rights to kill him or did you miss that Spectres get rid of threats to the the Galaxy with impunity?  

Modifié par remydat, 21 avril 2013 - 01:36 .

[Samtheman63]

yes

i would have shot him if there was an option to

[Xilizhra]

People here seem absolutely fine with letting people die for the greater good (e.g Virmire), but when it happens to them its suddenly unacceptable.

Well, it's not just me, but also Liara, Tali and Legion; additionally, I wasn't killing either Ashley or Kaidan on Virmire, I just couldn't go to both places at once.

I don't punch him because my Shepard isn't unnecessarily violent, but I did tell him off.

[DeinonSlayer]

remydat wrote...

Galbrant wrote...

I'd kill him if they let me... I couldn't care less if the whole Quarian fleet turns against me. Nobody tries to kills the Shepard and gets away with it.... Unless you're Kai Leng with plot armor and the ability to lower everyone's IQ to a single digit.

You put a bullet in Gherel and you tell them, Spectre status confirmed and what are they going to do?  Gherel risked the Galaxy and as a Spectre, I took him down.  Koris, Tali, Raan and Xen don't have the balls to stand up to the Council and I as a Spectre represent the Council.  Hell these dudes don't even have the balls to stand up to me when I allow the Geth upload and their entire fleet becames a fireworks display in the sky.  Do Tali or Raan get mad at me and attack me?  No, they commit suicide.  Even Legion had the balls to try and choke me out.  The Quarians?  Without Gherel they are puss and boots.

Gerrel is the only leader on the Admiralty Board who knows how to wage war. Raan is a cop who is in over her head. Side with her in the conversation between her and Gerrel, and the Quarian WA takes losses; side with Gerrel and they gain 25 points. Thing is, military leaders can only act on the information they have. The only way the Quarians die is if Shepard encourages the upload and chooses not to inform Gerrel that it's taking place. On the other hand, Koris' voiced strategy for Quarian survival was to simply keep drifting in their fleet - which is no strategy at all. They can't contribute to the wider war effort as long as they do so, and an encounter in space with a single Reaper would likely have been the death of them all.

Perhaps things could have been different if both sides had made more effort to communicate; in the absence of that, at least Gerrel and Xen tried to get things done to the best of their ability.

And for the record, "Spectre" means nothing. Shepard is ultimately just a human with a gun. People who look on such a title and think it gives them a "right" to do whatever they want, to whoever they want, for whatever reason, are precisely the kind of people who shouldn't have that kind of power. I have problems with the Council for even thinking it has the right to appoint agents with that kind of power.

[remydat]

Finn the Jakey wrote...

No, he wasn't deliberately trying to murder Shepard because of some grudge.

Where do you get that just because he did not intend to murder me that makes it ok?  He knew I was on the ship and if not for Legion he might have suceeded in killing me and Tali.  Let's see.

1.  Violated the Treaty that forbid them to provoke the Geth.

2.  Violated the Treaty of Farixen when they put guns on their liveships.

3.  Threatened the entire Galaxy by firing on a ship that one of the people critical to the Reaper War was on.

Any of the above allows me to summarily execute him as a Spectre.  All 3 of them and this is pretty much a slam dunk.  I put a bullet in him and ask the rest of the Quarians present if they want to be executed as well for their violations of Council Law that threatened the Galaxy.

Modifié par remydat, 21 avril 2013 - 01:45 .

[Xilizhra]

Gerrel is the only leader on the Admiralty Board who knows how to wage war. Raan is a cop who is in over her head. Side with her in the conversation between her and Gerrel, and the Quarian WA takes losses; side with Gerrel and they gain 25 points. Thing is, military leaders can only act on the information they have. The only way the Quarians die is if Shepard encourages the upload and chooses not to inform Gerrel that it's taking place. On the other hand, Koris' voiced strategy for Quarian survival was to simply keep drifting in their fleet - which is no strategy at all. They can't contribute to the wider war effort as long as they do so, and an encounter in space with a single Reaper would likely have been the death of them all.

Tali had the best strategy, but then Gerrel cut off its development with the attack. What's more, the entire Board had previously met Legion in my own playthrough. Gah.

[DeinonSlayer]

Xilizhra wrote...

People here seem absolutely fine with letting people die for the greater good (e.g Virmire), but when it happens to them its suddenly unacceptable.

Well, it's not just me, but also Liara, Tali and Legion; additionally, I wasn't killing either Ashley or Kaidan on Virmire, I just couldn't go to both places at once.

I don't punch him because my Shepard isn't unnecessarily violent, but I did tell him off.

I doubt Koris' crew appreciated being abandoned to the Geth, but that, too, serviced the greater objective.

That and Virmire were situations where the problem was that Shepard couldn't be both places at once. For Gerrel, it was the choice of eliminating the threat of the dreadnought now, or waiting until the boarding party (three people that he knows of - Legion's presence is never communicated to the Quarians) made it off and risking the ship coming back online to unstoppably tear into the fleet. Instead of location, time was the critical factor.

I have to wonder if people would reject Gerrel's haste so strenuously if it were an anonymous gaggle of Quarian marines forming the boarding party instead of Shepard.

[remydat]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Gerrel is the only leader on the Admiralty Board who knows how to wage war. Raan is a cop who is in over her head. Side with her in the conversation between her and Gerrel, and the Quarian WA takes losses; side with Gerrel and they gain 25 points. Thing is, military leaders can only act on the information they have. The only way the Quarians die is if Shepard encourages the upload and chooses not to inform Gerrel that it's taking place. On the other hand, Koris' voiced strategy for Quarian survival was to simply keep drifting in their fleet - which is no strategy at all. They can't contribute to the wider war effort as long as they do so, and an encounter in space with a single Reaper would likely have been the death of them all.

Perhaps things could have been different if both sides had made more effort to communicate; in the absence of that, at least Gerrel and Xen tried to get things done to the best of their ability.

And for the record, "Spectre" means nothing. Shepard is ultimately just a human with a gun. People who look on such a title and think it gives them a "right" to do whatever they want, to whoever they want, for whatever reason, are precisely the kind of people who shouldn't have that kind of power. I have problems with the Council for even thinking it has the right to appoint agents with that kind of power.

Koris is fine as a leader except he needs backbone which I don't really need.  I need people who will follow orders which Koris can do.  He was pretty much right in his assessments every single time when it came to this dumb war.  Tali even admits this.  The Civilian Fleet would have been dead long ago without him.  Xen pretty much admits this.  Gherel routinely ignores orders.  He is a liability.  As I said to Finn.

1.  Violated the Treaty that forbid them to provoke the Geth.

2.  Violated the Treaty of Farixen when they put guns on their liveships.

3.  Threatened the entire Galaxy by firing on a ship that one of the people critical to the Reaper War was on.

Any of the above allows me to summarily execute him as a Spectre.  

Modifié par remydat, 21 avril 2013 - 01:47 .

[Exile Isan]

Finn the Jakey wrote...
No, he wasn't deliberately trying to murder Shepard because of some grudge.

But he did try to kill Shepard, Tali, and whoever else you have with you, in my case Garrus, plus Legion. Even if it was as collateral damage he did not care a damn bit about the life of the leader of his allies. So you expect Shepard to care about his life? I love how it's okay for Garrel to think this way, but not for Shepard? Besides if he had been successful in killing Shepard and Co. the Geth still would have wiped them out, because they are still under Reaper control.

I was content with punching him and booting him off the Normandy, but if other players what to kill him more power to them.

[Xilizhra]

I doubt Koris' crew appreciated being abandoned to the Geth, but that, too, serviced the greater objective.

Quarians are a highly collectivist culture; I doubt many of them would be that upset about dying if it saved their admiral and their fleet.

That and Virmire were situations where the problem was that Shepard couldn't be both places at once. For Gerrel, it was the choice of eliminating the threat of the dreadnought now, or waiting until the boarding party (three people that he knows of - Legion's presence is never communicated to the Quarians) made it off and risking the ship coming back online to unstoppably tear into the fleet. Instead of location, time was the critical factor.

I know why he did what he did. It was just a bad call.

[Spartas Husky]

Han had a small window, if you indicated the plan was to retreat, he wasted it. With their upgrades gone temporarily they could have put the entire fleet safely beyond the relay and away from the Geth further minimizing casualties.

BUt instead he decided to take out their price flagship, and what did it got him in return?... more deaths, more senseless killing.

There is a difference on knowing how to wage war, and a very different in knowing if you should wage it. He is a warmonger who forces weaklings hands for his own glory hunt.

They could have just as easily fired at the dreadnought as they were retreating to inflict heavy damage.

If I had the touch I would have beat him to a pulp and have Javik drag him out.

NOW, in the event firing on the dreadnaught was the plan it still leaves the question as to why didn't he engage as we were getting to safety. You dont bomb the place your spec ops just disable until they have placed some distance between them and the target.

--------
Had he waited until we said we are exiting the ship at this moment, and then he orders his ships to fire. Then there is a slightly different story. BUt the fact he places one of the admirals at risk, my entire crew just to get his quick glory fix is ridiculous.

[DeinonSlayer]

remydat wrote...

Finn the Jakey wrote...

No, he wasn't deliberately trying to murder Shepard because of some grudge.

Where do you get that just because he did not intend to murder me that makes it ok?  He knew I was on the ship and if not for Legion he might have suceeded in killing me and Tali.  Let's see.

1.  Violated the Treaty that forbid them to provoke the Geth.

Null and void. The Council itself has been at war with them for nearly three years.

2.  Violated the Treaty of Farixen when they put guns on their liveships.

A treaty to which they haven't been subject since the Council kicked them to the curb three centuries earlier. And is a Reaper invasion really the time to be b*tching about people slapping guns on anything they can? Udina orders that human civilian ships be armed in the wake of the Reaper invasion.

3.  Threatened the entire Galaxy by firing on a ship that one of the people critical to the Reaper War was on.

That's the real sticking point, isn't it? Again, I must wonder if people would object to Gerrel's actions so strenuously had it been some anonymous Quarian marines in Shepard's place.

Any of the above allows me to summarily execute him as a Spectre.  All 3 of them and this is pretty much a slam dunk.  I put a bullet in him and ask the rest of the Quarians present if want to be executed as well for their violations of Council Law that threatened the Galaxy.

I sincerely hope you didn't choose Control.

[Phatose]

Yeah, I decked him.

It's not a matter of whether or not it was the appropriate strategy.

It was a matter of him not bothering to mention that he intended to blow the ship up immediately before I went over there.

[Exile Isan]

Finn the Jakey wrote...

People here seem absolutely fine with letting people die for the greater good (e.g Virmire), but when it happens to them its suddenly unacceptable.

Um, no. My Shepard was not made that Garrel tried to kill her, she was made that he almost killed Legion, Tali and Garrus. Two of her best friends and her lover. And don't tell me that I'm "fine" with leaving Ashley on Virmire, because I'm not. It was one of the hardest choices I ever made in a videogame.

[DeinonSlayer]

Xilizhra wrote...

I doubt Koris' crew appreciated being abandoned to the Geth, but that, too, serviced the greater objective.

Quarians are a highly collectivist culture; I doubt many of them would be that upset about dying if it saved their admiral and their fleet.

There's no denying that they're devoted to family and duty; that said, I think Jona's father would have preferred to have lived.

That and Virmire were situations where the problem was that Shepard couldn't be both places at once. For Gerrel, it was the choice of eliminating the threat of the dreadnought now, or waiting until the boarding party (three people that he knows of - Legion's presence is never communicated to the Quarians) made it off and risking the ship coming back online to unstoppably tear into the fleet. Instead of location, time was the critical factor.

I know why he did what he did. It was just a bad call.

Fair enough. Agree to disagree.

Maybe if more had been communicated to them beyond "the Reaper signal is offline," things would have ended differently. Again, people can only act on the information they have.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 21 avril 2013 - 01:53 .

[SinerAthin]

remydat wrote...

Koris is fine as a leader except he needs backbone.  He was pretty much right in his assessments every single time when it came to this dumb war.  Tali even admits this.  The Civilian Fleet would have been tend long ago without him.  Xen pretty much admits this.  Gherel routinely ignores orders.  He is a liability.  As I said to Finn.

1.  Violated the Treaty that forbid them to provoke the Geth.

2.  Violated the Treaty of Farixen when they put guns on their liveships.

3.  Threatened the entire Galaxy by firing on a ship that one of the people critical to the Reaper War was on.

Any of the above allows me to summarily execute him as a Spectre.  

Actually, Gerrel is a decent strategist.

If it had not been for the Reaper intervention, the Quarians would have actually been able to defeat the Geth and reclaim their homeworld. And that is quite an impressive feet.

His mind is an important military asset.

HOWEVER

He is not a good battle commander.

Almost blowing up Shepard or attacking the Geth fleet even though they are receiving upgrades are terrible calls. He loses his ability to think in the heat of the battle when the high stakes are flying infront of him.


Gerrel is an excellent man, but I would have let him do the strategizing/planning of a military invasion, while someone else directed the fleet during the battle itself.

Shooting Gerrel is just as stupid, if not even more stupid than trying to blow Shepard up because it makes no logical sense from a military point of view.

[remydat]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

1.  It is not null and void because Koris and Xen admit they violated it and Shep notes they did so at a time they knew the Council could not sanction them because they were too busy.  The game makes clear they knew they were violating it and did not care.

2.  Incorrect, I believe Raan admits they violated the Treaty of Farixen and send she will apologize to the council after the war.

3.  Yes I would as I don't needlessly kill people if I can avoid it.

Now I can provide links that 1 and 2 are stated in game but I don't feel like looking for them unless you tell me you will agree once they are provided that the Quarians clearly violated these laws.  I don't feel like looking for youtubes if all you are going to do is find some excuse to deny them when the game makes this clear.

[Xilizhra]

There's no denying that they're devoted to family and duty; that said, I think Jona's father would have preferred to have lived.

Well, the alternative is that the fleet splinters and a lot more of them die. I would have loved to explain it, but unfortunately, there wasn't time. With "luck," most of them died or were mortally wounded on impact like Jona's father.

Fair enough. Agree to disagree.

Also, I made the battle plan to retreat, which he disregarded, and then basically extorted Shala'Raan into disregarding. So I'm rather peeved at him for that.

[remydat]

SinerAthin wrote...

Actually, Gerrel is a decent strategist.

Umm, no.  Any idiot can decide to go to war when they have a weapon that disables the enemy and allows them to be killed without firing back.  There is no strategy in that.  A strategist would think about what could possibly go wrong.  Oh I don't know.  Maybe the Reapers who one faction of the Geth have already allied with might intervene.  Think that is possible Sun Tzu Gherel?

Modifié par remydat, 21 avril 2013 - 01:58 .