If it had not been for the Reaper intervention, the Quarians would have actually been able to defeat the Geth and reclaim their homeworld. And that is quite an impressive feet.
His mind is an important military asset.
HOWEVER
He is not a good battle commander.
Almost blowing up Shepard or attacking the Geth fleet even though they are receiving upgrades are terrible calls. He loses his ability to think in the heat of the battle when the high stakes are flying infront of him.
Gerrel is an excellent man, but I would have let him do the strategizing/planning of a military invasion, while someone else directed the fleet during the battle itself.
Shooting Gerrel is just as stupid, if not even more stupid than trying to blow Shepard up because it makes no logical sense from a military point of view.
Doesn't the fact that he apparently did not anticipate the Geth going to the Reapers for assistance qualify him as a pretty bad strategist?
Okay, Virmire was a bad example, think of the Racni mission instead.
Xilizhra wrote...
People here seem absolutely fine with letting people die for the greater good (e.g Virmire), but when it happens to them its suddenly unacceptable.
Well, it's not just me, but also Liara, Tali and Legion; additionally, I wasn't killing either Ashley or Kaidan on Virmire, I just couldn't go to both places at once.
I don't punch him because my Shepard isn't unnecessarily violent, but I did tell him off.
Fair enough, that's why I punched him actually, but I haven't seen anyone else mention the other three and I get the impression they were offended that their ego took a hit.
@Phantose Maybe, but seeing as they already thought the Geth were BFFs with the Reapers it can hurt to knock them out of the war early.
Modifié par Finn the Jakey, 21 avril 2013 - 02:04 .
Actually, I think blowing up the dreadnought was the right call, however he should have given Shepard some time/a warning, so my cannon shep was pissed about that, but agreed with the reasoning behind it.
I did punch him on one of my playthrough's though.
I think it is more the opposite. He is a good commander but a weaker strategist. That being said he doesn't know what we know. He's doing the best he can with the information he has. Like previously said he backs down immediatly when he is informed the geth are about to ppwer up.
1. It is not null and void because Koris and Xen admit they violated it and Shep notes they did so at a time they knew the Council could not sanction them because they were too busy. The game makes clear they knew they were violating it and did not care.
Funny, my Shepard instead noted how the Council never gave a damn about them. Their alternative was to wait in space for the Reapers to kill them. We're violating every Council edict ever passed in regards to the Krogan, turning a blind eye to piracy and the like in this war if it means recruiting extra help; overriding the right to privacy by opening private footage to law enforcement, among other things. Ignoring that the Council has been at war with the Geth for years, it's one in a laundry list of Council treaties which no longer apply (the Council doesn't exactly have the best track record in following its own laws, anyway *eyes Thessia*).
2. Incorrect, I believe Raan admits they violated the Treaty of Farixen and send she will apologize to the council after the war.
“We have no embassy on the Citadel, and are no longer signatories to the Treaty of Farixen,” Admiral Han’Gerrel vas Neema said. “Our armaments are none of the Council’s business. Further, these worries are unfounded. We have never had, nor do we plan to have, hostile intent to Council species.”
Personally, I think Farixen is a major reason the war is going so badly. It's another one of the things about Council law which really screwed the galaxy over. A law limiting the production of dreadnoughts is not what we should be concerned about in a reaper invasion. After the first attack on the Citadel, they should have been churning out dreadnoughts as fast as they could mine the metal.
3. Yes I would as I don't needlessly kill people if I can avoid it.
Now I can provide links that 1 and 2 are stated in game but I don't feel like looking for them unless you tell me you will agree once they are provided that the Quarians clearly violated these laws. I don't feel like looking for youtubes if all you are going to do is find some excuse to deny them when the game makes this clear.
The game gives enough roleplaying latitude for both of us to back up our positions. I know this because it's the source we're both citing. We choose different paths. That's the long and short of it.
There's no denying that they're devoted to family and duty; that said, I think Jona's father would have preferred to have lived.
Well, the alternative is that the fleet splinters and a lot more of them die. I would have loved to explain it, but unfortunately, there wasn't time. With "luck," most of them died or were mortally wounded on impact like Jona's father.
I haven't done a playthrough where I chose Koris' crew over the man himself, but from what I've read on these boards, it does sound like you instead play through a sequence where you're clearing the path for multiple survivors.
Fair enough. Agree to disagree.
Also, I made the battle plan to retreat, which he disregarded, and then basically extorted Shala'Raan into disregarding. So I'm rather peeved at him for that.
I don't see retreat as having been feasable in the first place, and even if retreat had succeeded, the Geth would just stay under Reaper control and the Quarians would be left drifting. For better or worse, they're committed. That's just how I see it.
Still want to puncture his suit with a rusty ice pick. If he survives that he has my respect... but I can't allow him going around saying I try to kill him... So I'm going to have EDI record me shooting him in the back of the head. LIVE ON PAY PER VIEW! I'll use the Geth Plasma SMG. I'll tickle him to death. The Quarians need to learn to be obedient sheep like Tali... It's not like Tali had the tendency to jump off a cliff or something. She'll be a good la-
... Tali? Tali? ... oops. Oh well they breed like rats any-.... Oh...
I haven't done a playthrough where I chose Koris' crew over the man himself, but from what I've read on these boards, it does sound like you instead play through a sequence where you're clearing the path for multiple survivors.
Unfortunately, even the survivors I did rescue would have their lives endangered by not having Koris there, so there's a decent chance it'd all be for nothing. This choice is rather more akin to blowing up the Alpha Relay than the Destroy ending.
I don't see retreat as having been feasable in the first place, and even if retreat had succeeded, the Geth would just stay under Reaper control and the Quarians would be left drifting. For better or worse, they're committed. That's just how I see it.
The point is to take the chance to remove the Civilian Fleet in an orderly manner, not the entire Migrant Fleet. Which would have been very helpful for Koris and his crew, I would think.
1. At around 15-20 seconds, of the vid, both Koris and Xen admit they violated the non-agression treat. Shep then notes they did so at a time they could not be sanctioned. Your Shep is free to defend them and say the Council are a**holes because the Council are in fact a**holes. However, the treaty is not null and void as you claimed. You simply have the option of disregarding the fact they violated it but the violation is clear and stated in game.
2. At around 6 minutes, Raan admits they put cannons on liveships and Shep notes they violated the Treaty of Farixen because they essentially converted them into Dreadnaughts. Raan admits she can apologize once the war is over. The article you cite even notes the Council thinks they violated it as that is why they are sending Inspectors. Shep is a Spectre ie he works for the Council not the Quarians and the Council think it is a violation and he is within his right to punish them for it. Once again, you are free to ignore it in your game but once again, I am not incorrect. I stated they violated the Treaty because they did from the perspective of the Council.
And if you had said the game allows us to choose different paths then I would agree with you as I just did above. I simply noted the game makes clear they violated both treaties from the Council's perspective and as a Spectre ie a representative of the Council I am well within my rights to punish them for it. You said null and void and incorrect when all you had to say is that you personally choose not to punish them for these violations despite having the authority to do so. The point of being a Spectre is to uphold the Council's Laws so it does not matter what the Quarians think, it matters what the Council thinks. But again, you are free to ignore your duty because again no one is claiming the Council are not douchebags. However, you knew that when you accepted Spectre status in ME3.
I haven't done a playthrough where I chose Koris' crew over the man himself, but from what I've read on these boards, it does sound like you instead play through a sequence where you're clearing the path for multiple survivors.
Unfortunately, even the survivors I did rescue would have their lives endangered by not having Koris there, so there's a decent chance it'd all be for nothing. This choice is rather more akin to blowing up the Alpha Relay than the Destroy ending.
Which is why saving Koris is the right choice, as tragic as it is for his crew. As I see it, Gerrel made a similar decision regarding the dreadnought - choosing the survival of the fleet over that of the boarding party when circumstances changed. Others are free to their own interpretations; that is mine.
I don't see retreat as having been feasable in the first place, and even if retreat had succeeded, the Geth would just stay under Reaper control and the Quarians would be left drifting. For better or worse, they're committed. That's just how I see it.
The point is to take the chance to remove the Civilian Fleet in an orderly manner, not the entire Migrant Fleet. Which would have been very helpful for Koris and his crew, I would think.
According to Xen (if you choose the "I don't blame them" dialogue option in the shuttle at the start of the mission), "even Koris recognized the need for the Civilian Fleet. The invasion would be stalled without a supply chain, after all."
The military depends on the civilians for food, fuel, and logistics distribution. The civilian fleet, in turn, depends on the military for protection. It's an indivisible symbiotic relationship. Take all three Liveships out of the system, and the military fleet has no food. Leave even one Liveship behind, and 1/3rd of the civilian fleet has to stay behind with it.
@Phantose Maybe, but seeing as they already thought the Geth were BFFs with the Reapers it can hurt to knock them out of the war early.
In theory, sure. But if you better take into account the possibility of Reaper intervention in your battle plan in that case, and he clearly did not.
If anything, he got very lucky on that account because all the Reapers did was provide upgrades and send 1 Destroyer to co-ordinate. Had the Reapers committed some of their own forces, there wouldn't have been a Rannoch arc, just wreckage of the Migrant fleet.
Which is why saving Koris is the right choice, as tragic as it is for his crew. As I see it, Gerrel made a similar decision regarding the dreadnought - choosing the survival of the fleet over that of the boarding party when circumstances changed. Others are free to their own interpretations; that is mine.
Except the Reaper War is more important than the Geth/Quarian conflict. Gherel risked killing people critical to the Reaper War. Critical. He risked a Galactic incident by killing allied military personnel. Shep is a commander of the Alliance, Garrus is a special advisor to the Turian Miliatry, James also in the Alliance, etc. He is not just risking the lives of his people. He is risking the lives of Allied personnel which any sensible leader would know is not a good idea.
Having said that, you are of course free to ignore that but that is no small crime. That could easily be construed by the Humans or Turians as an act of war if Shep or Garrus are on the mission with Tali.
According to Xen (if you choose the "I don't blame them" dialogue option in the shuttle at the start of the mission), "even Koris recognized the need for the Civilian Fleet. The invasion would be stalled without a supply chain, after all."
The military depends on the civilians for food, fuel, and logistics distribution. The civilian fleet, in turn, depends on the military for protection. It's an indivisible symbiotic relationship. Take all three Liveships out of the system, and the military fleet has no food. Leave even one Liveship behind, and 1/3rd of the civilian fleet has to stay behind with it.
Bleh. Why didn't Koris just refuse to move the Civilian Fleet along with the rest of it, then? He could have stopped the war altogether. And are you saying that none of the other ships have any ability to store food? I think the entire mission chain only takes place over... half a day, maybe? It certainly seems to be implied that the nighttime on Koris' mission and sunrise in the Priority mission are on the same cycle.
1. At around 15-20 seconds, of the vid, both Koris and Xen admit they violated the non-agression treat. Shep then notes they did so at a time they could not be sanctioned. Your Shep is free to defend them and say the Council are a**holes because the Council are in fact a**holes. However, the treaty is not null and void as you claimed. You simply have the option of disregarding the fact they violated it but the violation is clear and stated in game.
Fair enough. In light of all the other Council treaties we're throwing out the window (in regards to, say, the Krogan), I'm willing to let it slide. Again, their alternative was to wait around in space to get killed. No Council resolution is worth that.
2. At around 6 minutes, Raan admits they put cannons on liveships and Shep notes they violated the Treaty of Farixen because they essentially converted them into Dreadnaughts. Raan admits she can apologize once the war is over. The article you cite even notes the Council thinks they violated it as that is why they are sending Inspectors. Shep is a Spectre ie he works for the Council not the Quarians and the Council think it is a violation and he is within his right to punish them for it. Once again, you are free to ignore it in your game but once again, I am not incorrect. I stated they violated the Treaty because they did from the perspective of the Council.
And if you had said the game allows us to choose different paths then I would agree with you as I just did above. I simply noted the game makes clear they violated both treaties and as a Spectre ie a representative of the Council I am well within my rights to punish them for it. You said null and void and incorrect when all you had to say is that you personally choose not to punish them for these violations despite having the authority to do so. The point of being a Spectre is to uphold the Council's Laws so it does not matter what the Quarians think, it matters what the Council thinks. But again, you are free to ignore your duty because again no one is claiming the Council are not douchebags. However, you knew that when you accepted Spectre status.
What I'm saying is that I question if Farixen even applies to them to begin with. According to Gerrel in the link I provided, it doesn't - they can't violate it if they aren't signatories to it. Shepard might simply be wrong in claiming they violated it. It wouldn't be the first time.
In reply, Raan is simply saying, in the context of a war which threatens the survival of her species, "who gives a damn?" I'm inclined to agree with her.
Why should they care about a law which doesn't apply to them, meant to restrict the development of dreadnoughts so as not to let anyone challenge Turian martial superiority, when the galaxy is crawling with Reapers? To quote Admiral Helena Cain: "Is this what the two of you have been doing for the past six months? Debating the finer points of Colonial law? Well, guess what? We're at war! And we don't have the luxury of academic debate over these issues."
EDIT: I'm off to play DA:O. I might jump back in later.
Again, let's be clear, the Council are douchebags. I have argued that repeatedly and noted how stupid it is the Quarians keep trying to appease those a**holes. However, my comments are in the context of Shep as representative of the Council. He is a Spectre not a Quarian officer. His duty is to the Council not the Quarians. Personally, I would like to blow the Council to sh*t but the below is simply my discussing the options in the context of Shep being a Spectre of the Council not a Quarian officer.
The Krogan situation is different because Victus ie a leader of a Council Race agreed to it. The Salarian's disagreed and the Asari didn't bother to show up. The Alliance also agreed so in reality the Council Races are 2-1 in favor of it with one no vote. With respect to the Non-Agression Treaty, no council race agrees to the Quarians attack on the Geth so again as a Spectre, I can choose to uphold the Council Laws that the Quarians have clearly violated and admitted to me in person they violated.
With respect to the Treaty of Farixen, the Council thinks it is a violation. This is clear in the article you cite and this is clear as Shep says the Council would consider it a violation in the vid. Again, Shep is not an officer for the Quarians. He is an officer of the Council. What Gherel thinks is largely irrelevant in his role as Spectre. As long as the Council thinks it is a violation then he is justified in punishing the Quarians especially after Raan basically admits to it but is like so what.
None of the above means from the Quarian perspective they should care. From their perspective they are free to tell the Council to F off but again Shep is an officer of the Council not the Quarians. He has more than enough grounds in that role to punish the Quarians and Gherel who is clearly the ring leader for these violations. Whether he does or not is up to the player. Given my Shep also considers him unreliable as he doesn't listen to other people then he is a liability who has committed crimes that I can punish him for.
His only salvation is the game does not allow me to. I probably wouldn't honestly kill him but my renegade Shep would arrest him for these violations and his almost killing an officer of the Alliance (me) and a officer of the Turians (Garrus) and have him detained on the Normandy for the duration of the War. The Quarians are in no position to do anything really as they need my help against the Geth. Once I save their a**es and make peace then I can decide whether he has any real value in the War against the Reapers or whether he can't be trusted. If the Quarians raise a fuss though considering how docile they have been when up against the Council I doubt they would, I would simply say Gherel will never see the outside of a prison alive unless they agree to help.
Strategy is the big picture, tactics is the small short term picture.
Gerrel firing on the dreadnought with Admiral Zorah, myself in it showed he has no grasp of the big picture.
You can win every battle and still loose the war if you dont have a long term plan.
Excellent tactician I give you that, but with such a short term vision that his "galant" tactics are a result of stepping into trouble after trouble due to his lack of long term planning.
Strategy without tactics is just the most bloody path to victory... tactics without strategy is just noise before defeat.
Xilizhra wrote... Bleh. Why didn't Koris just refuse to move the Civilian Fleet along with the rest of it, then? He could have stopped the war altogether. And are you saying that none of the other ships have any ability to store food? I think the entire mission chain only takes place over... half a day, maybe? It certainly seems to be implied that the nighttime on Koris' mission and sunrise in the Priority mission are on the same cycle.
I think it's because the Civilian Fleet relies on the Patrol Fleet and the Heavy Fleet for protection, without them to defend it the Civilian Fleet are sitting ducks.
See, Gerrel is the ultimate example with what can go wrong with power and corruption. His personality is built upon the notion that the Quarians are Aryan perfection (look up the 'ideology' if you're not familiar with it), and as such he has a black & white view of reality. If you stand with the Quarians, you're an honorary Quarian; If you stand against the Quarians, you're already dead. Anyone Gerrel dislikes is against his perceived perfection, an insult to it, if you will. From ME1 I was expecting Gerrel to stab me in the back.
And lo, in ME3, it happened. The Geth are an affront to Gerrel's perfection, an insult to him. Naturally, he believes that anyone should want to die in order to defend his perfection. He's very, very confused when you get back to the Normandy and you're rather angry about almost having died. He just doesn't understand. He expects you to die for his causes, willingly. This is also exhibited in his attitude regarding the liveships. The liveships are to be fitted with thanix cannons, to put themselves on the front lines and do whatever damage they can before they're blown to smithereens. Obviously, the civilians are happy to die for Gerrel's cause. (Koris disputes this.)
If you look at earth's history, they're clearly borrowing from some of the worst dictators with some of the most outright psychopathic mindsets ever. Look at Xen, for example. She's the kind of person who'd fit well as the aide to a psychopathic dictator, as all she's interested in is slavery. She's caught up in the notion of Aryan perfection as much as Gerrel is, except she sees non-Quarians as potential slaves. This is the kind of mindset they have, and it's very acidic and poisonous, it brings the Quarian people down. To not realise that, to me, is to disrespect the likes of Creator Megara who stood with the geth, realising that the quest for Aryan perfection was wrong.
It's depressing really because Gerrel is far, far too good at charming players into thinking in his nasty, psychopathic little ways. So what happens is that you have more people thinking like Gerrel than Koris. Koris is a total bro, and Tali is really fun and cool, I dig her. But people don't think like Tali or Koris, they think like Gerrel. And they think that's good. I... can't wrap my mind around that. That's like playing New Vegas and trying desperately to convince me that Caesar's Legion are the good guys, or playing Skyrim and trying to convince me that the Imperials aren't needlessly fascistic or the Nords aren't ridiculously racist.
So yeah, I punched Gerrel. I punched him because he's a monster. I punched him because of all of the monsters he reminds me of. I punched him in the stead of Legion, Koris, Tali, Creator Megara, and the Quarian civililans. Shepard's fist was guided by them, it was a small justice.
Xilizhra wrote... Bleh. Why didn't Koris just refuse to move the Civilian Fleet along with the rest of it, then? He could have stopped the war altogether. And are you saying that none of the other ships have any ability to store food? I think the entire mission chain only takes place over... half a day, maybe? It certainly seems to be implied that the nighttime on Koris' mission and sunrise in the Priority mission are on the same cycle.
I think it's because the Civilian Fleet relies on the Patrol Fleet and the Heavy Fleet for protection, without them to defend it the Civilian Fleet are sitting ducks.
Exactly that. It was the "Javik philosophy."
Koris: So, I'm not sure about this whole war thing... my people don't like it. Gerrel: Oh, that's fine. You can opt out whenever you like. Koris: ...really? Gerrel: Yes, Koris. I'm not an evil man. But if you don't stand with us, then you're notus. Do you understand? Koris: What are you saying, Gerrel? Gerrel: I merely mean that if you're not us, then you can't expect us to be there to defend you... but you're free to do your own thing. Koris: I see... so death by Terminus pirates, or death in your silly little war. That's how it is? Gerrel: Now you're getting it! That's how it is. Koris: You're an unfeeling monster Gerrel, you have no soul. Gerrel: Yes yes. Now go prepare your ships to become glass cannons for our glorious agenda.
I wish someone from bioware could confirm if saving the Geth dreadnaught is supposed to be possible, or if it's another one of those bugs where the import forgets your previous decisions. Like how Conrad always acts like you were an ass to him in ME1, when in fact it's just the import is bugged.
The final movie showing the galactic fleets moving to Earth has a gaping hole on the top right that's obviously for a very, very large ship.
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