150 réponses à ce sujet

[TheBlackBaron]

 If anything killed DA2, it was likely sales numbers for the DLC weren't deemed high enough for EA to sink resources into a full expansion pack. Pure speculation on my part, as I don't have access to those figures.
 
Similarly, all signs points to Witch Hunt originally being an expansion for DA:O that was cut short because the higher ups (whoever that may be) wanted a quick turnaround on the development of DA2, to help recoup the costs of DA:O's five year development cycle. 
I can't text wall like Brock does, sorry. 

Modifié par TheBlackBaron, 22 mars 2012 - 08:35 .

[Deviija]

I think there is plenty of closure in the DA franchise where the main characters are concerned. Although I did not care much for the character of Hawke and the story of Hawke, I did appreciate it and the colorful adventure it offered. The story ended, Hawke's origins were discovered further in DLC, and she rode off into the sunset to do whatever other adventures call her. That's the thing. Being told Hawke or the Warden disappear/venture off is not lacking closure. It is telling that there is another adventure, something else afoot, in the future of the franchise. The current chapters of their lives, that which is set in the time of DA:O for Warden and DA2 for Hawke, comes to a complete close with the ending of their games.

It is somewhat akin to saying that my highschool years were a distinct adventure, one that had closure once I graduated. I leave with friends and family, and everything is roses and successful. That does not mean, however, that my life suddenly stops right there. Or that the roses and success continues forevermore, and I have nothing else further in life to pursue. After a time, I embark on the college adventure, then the marriage adventure, then the economy crisis home ownership adventure, and so on and so on. Point is, we're just seeing a clip of a person's life during each game. They don't just retire and stop living after that point, or stop being a hero. The world still has many battles, adventures, and distressing crises to see to.

Those that are uncomfortable with a story telling you that your character goes off and disappears or moves on to adventures yet unknown/untold, I can understand and empathize, sure. Some people may have it in their minds that 'this is my character, and she would stay in Kirkwall as the Viscount no matter WHAT!' Maybe saving 'Hawke disappears' to be part of the narrative or commentry present in DA3 would've been better, thus allowing players to entertain their dreams for their character after DA2. But alas, it is what it is. Something is brewing in Thedas, and it's just saying there is a reason.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

David Gaider wrote...

The idea that a character might move onto a new story is not really a lack of closure-- for the character, perhaps, but not the story. Wondering what a character is going to do next is not a lack of closure... or, at least, not the sort we would worry about. I don't really see a requirement to end a story with "and the character went on to be happy and nothing of interest occurred to them again", and players wanting to know more is understandable but not really an issue.

One of the objections isn't that the game ends with the hero leaving, as that's all part and parcel of many a fantasy adventure story: The Hero doesn't settle down. It does matter how it's expressed though. Saying "The Hero left and had other adventures" is one thing, but DA2 had basically two story-states Hawke could have left Kirkwall in, and neither provide(d me) with that satisfying 'Game Complete' feeling. It either dribbled away into "And (Viscount?) Hawke left when his fortunes changed in a mysterious direction," or "Hawke left as a fugitive, and someone might have chased her. Who knows?"

Both of these when there's a great damn problem now decorating the courtyard of the Gallows.

It's a major loose thread, and you'd think we'd have the option to not leave insanity-inducing relics full of evil magic lying around after how that worked out last time.

If it features in the next game I'll probably facepalm harder than I did when Anders said: "It's full of dark magic!" and Hawke promptly replied: "Cha-CHING!"

[Garrion86]

Closure would have been great.

[Corker]

Arguably, the best point for closure on Hawke's personal story was not the end of Act 3, which was the best point of closure for Kirkwall's story.

"The Story of How Hawke Became Champion of Kirkwall" ended nicely at the end of Act 2.

"How the Great War Began" ended nicely at the end of Act 3, but that was also the end of Chapter 1 of "The Story of the Champion of Kirkwall's Involvement in the Great War."

And I think that's your disconnect.

Modifié par Corker, 22 mars 2012 - 10:13 .

[Shatriya]

My post is directed to David Gaider. First I would like to say I have enjoyed DAO, Awakengings and DA2 very much. Also the books helped me understand a lot of the background, which is important to me (probably important because I tend to be a huge history buff in whatever venue I am in).

Was I terribly surprised or huge disappointed no more DA2 content? Nope. I am somewhat of a realist. The problem is from when DA2 was released it was either implied or understood that Hawke's story was not complete and there would either BE a expansion or DLC addressing that.

That is one huge mistake that was even an issue. Reason is, people tend to expect it to be delivered. Regardless of time or financial issues, which I think is the case here. Always give yourself an out when dealing with those that are buying the product. Whether my interpretion is right or wrong, my only disappointment is the fact the implication was we would experience in a game environment the finishing of DA2. Just hope that doesn't happen again in a future game whether it be DA3 or something else.

I was unhappy with very few aspects of DA2. One was how Anders was handled. Only way you can actually spare Anders is to side with the mages. I tried sparing him on templar side and I still had to kill him anyway which didn't make me happy. I suppose there couldn't be any other outcome but still!

I think you and the rest of the development staff did an awesome job. I love reading books and in a way playing DA2 is like participating in a book and really experiencing what is going on. I thought I loved DAO but DA2 really caught and held my attention. Still redoing my toons because each play through I found a better way to do something.

In conclusion, I am still very happy with DA2 and eagerly await what is next to come. Thank you for being such an awesome writing and visionary.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Shatriya wrote...

I was unhappy with very few aspects of DA2. One was how Anders was handled. Only way you can actually spare Anders is to side with the mages. I tried sparing him on templar side and I still had to kill him anyway which didn't make me happy. I suppose there couldn't be any other outcome but still!

To be fair, this was a bug. A patch fixes this.

[Maria Caliban]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

Both of these when there's a great damn problem now decorating the courtyard of the Gallows.

Gave it to Merrill. Nothing bad will come of that.

[Dutchess]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

Shatriya wrote...

I was unhappy with very few aspects of DA2. One was how Anders was handled. Only way you can actually spare Anders is to side with the mages. I tried sparing him on templar side and I still had to kill him anyway which didn't make me happy. I suppose there couldn't be any other outcome but still!

To be fair, this was a bug. A patch fixes this.

That's not entirely true. It was a bug that you could not convince Anders to join you when fighting for templars while he was at full rivalry. When you have taken the friendship path with him, he will still refuse. 
And can you not still spare Anders by telling him to go away? I'm not sure because I haven't really tried that option.

[Silfren]

Darth Krytie wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

Even when it does come to what the fans need/want... which fans? I know someone could respond to that by saying "us, the ones here on the forums"... but I don't think it's a stretch to say that there is no unison in that opinion. It's not a singular thing, even among those most committed (either for or against). So spending all our time trying to discern a single opinion to that is counter-productive.

This. This so so much. Every single time someone invokes the "fan" wants/needs/desires, I seriously get annoyed  because there is no consensus on it and most of the time, whatever it is they're claiming "all the fans want" isn't really what I want in a game.

I feel this especially when people invoke "what the fans want" in regards to eliminating LGBT content. I keep thinking, "stop talking for me, please."  (I like being represented, plzkthnx)

I always find it amusing from the standpoint that Bioware games are about telling stories, whatever else can be said about gameplay and the depth of player involvement in how the stories unfold.

I don't know any writer of fiction, fantasy or otherwise, who interviews their readers and writes their plots precisely with fan preference in mind.  Generally, fans read the books and either like it or hate it or whatever.  There's always a group that complains and actually goes out of their way to demand that the story be changed, but these people tend to be few and far between, if exceedingly loud and obnoxious.  I certainly don't think anyone expects a writer to, in the middle of a series, go out of their way to determine what the majority of fans want, and write the story to suit them.  No, they pretty much write the story they want to tell, and people either like it or not.

A story-driven game like those put out by Bioware operate the same way.  There are other factors to consider, obviously, but as far as the story?  Whether there should be cliffhangers, or the protagonists receive definitive closure, and the question of LGBT, etc?  It's Bioware's prerogative to tell the story however they like and the only input fans have the right to is whether to buy it or not.  Fans who think they should actually have the right to dictate the direction of the story, or how the story is told, really need to be out there designing their own games or writing fanfiction.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

renjility wrote...
That's not entirely true. It was a bug that you could not convince Anders to join you when fighting for templars while he was at full rivalry. When you have taken the friendship path with him, he will still refuse.

This is correct, but I didn't see a problem with this as, mechanically, Friend-Anders has been supported by Hawke to fight for mage rights. His agruments against the Chantry has been galvanised by his friend. Why would he back down? In contrast, Rival-Anders ostensibly has a Hawke who doesn't support his beliefs. The constant lack of support contributes to his backing down.

I have problems of my own regarding how Anders was handled (mostly as a plot device), but not backing down from what he strongly believes isn't one of them. That's good characterisation in my books, especially because it's been influenced by the PC.

And can you not still spare Anders by telling him to go away? I'm not sure because I haven't really tried that option.

As far as I'm aware, only a friend on the mage path can do that. I haven't tried every angle either. The enemy waves get tedious after a few replays of the last quest.

Maria Caliban wrote...

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

Both of these when there's a great damn problem now decorating the courtyard of the Gallows.

Gave it to Merrill. Nothing bad will come of that.

Besides a vaguely Merrill-shaped lawn ornament, you mean?

[FieryDove]

monimakitten wrote...

But why make  both the warden and Hawke disappear. I guess thats what leaves us wondering. Are we missing some great adventure they are having without us:blink:

This is my pet peeve. My awakenings wardens and Hawke went "poof". I don't like poof...unless it has tons of butter.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Silfen wrote...

I don't know any writer of fiction, fantasy or otherwise, who interviews their readers and writes their plots precisely with fan preference in mind.

You might be surprised how many contemporary authors allow their stories to be influenced by their readers. Interviews though? Probably not.

It's unwise to compare a book to an interactive cRPG anyway, as one medium requires direct participation that tangibly influences how the story unfolds and what characters do and how characters react to your input, while the other does not -- the story always progresses in the same way in the same order of events every time.

It's Bioware's prerogative to tell the story however they like and the only input fans have the right to is whether to buy it or not.

"Yes" to the first, "ORLY?" to the second. I thought we had a right to say what we like and don't like, what we think works and what we think doesn't. I do that to books too, but don't expect them to be rewritten. I do want to like the next book though.

Fans who think they should actually have the right to dictate the direction of the story, or how the story is told, really need to be out there designing their own games or writing fanfiction.

No doubt some are doing just that. Others are content to say "We think Bioware can do it better than this. Here's where we think you went wrong."

ME3's in a unique position, but having not played it myself I don't know what to say about it. If fans were officially promised one thing but given another, I'd see that as a problem and think they may have a right to be angry. This is why the devs here have to be so careful about what they confirm or leave vague, and while this alleged transparancy that's being proposed for DA3 is nice, it doesn't come without the risk of an internet lynch mob. :/

[Dejajeva]

I dig that my warden and Hawke disappeared. I imagine them sometimes off together, with some of their past companions, holed up and preparing because of some new big bad the general public doesn't know about yet...and my yet to be determined new character is exactly what they need to get the world out of this mess and them I'm recrui....well nevermind. As you can see, I make up my own endings, and I'll make it fit into the premise of DA3 once I play it, have no doubt.

[Davillo]

So they admit that they didn't do the expack because nobody would buy it except the nerds on this forum and frankly that is not allot of people, makes sense but still it's a shame for whole dragon age2.

[Nadia]

I like how DA2 ends. Especially now compared to ME3 . Hawke and his followers fought a good fight,and I got the information that Hawke's love interest stayed with him and they didn't die. Only thing I'd like more closure on is story about Morrigan and Architect from DAO and this mysterious dissapearance of Hawke and Warden, but it's pretty convienent because I will not think most the time while playing the next game: "Why Warden or Hawke can't come and help this guy save the world (or something)?" ;-)

[Dutchess]

David Gaider wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...
I don't like Hawk, but to be fair toward those who care about him, yes, he lacked closure to me. He becomes viscount but disappears a while after, so it's not true that it is fine. Why did he need to vanish while he was the viscount ?

See, this is what I mean.

The idea that a character might move onto a new story is not really a lack of closure-- for the character, perhaps, but not the story. Wondering what a character is going to do next is not a lack of closure... or, at least, not the sort we would worry about. I don't really see a requirement to end a story with "and the character went on to be happy and nothing of interest occurred to them again", and players wanting to know more is understandable but not really an issue.

And I know that's not necessarily the sentimenet being expressed. Someone might feel the ending they did receive wasn't satisfactory... but, again, that's not the same thing as lacking closure in the narraive. Which makes it difficult for me, when people talk about this, to discern whether they're talking about one thing or the other.

But it's cool. Discussing one's feelings isn't a science, after all.

As I said, I don't mind the idea of a character moving onto a new story, but the way it was done felt cheap somehow. Remove the part with Leliana, and it would have been fine. Not a great ending perhaps, but fine. It would have seemed more finished, because throwing in this big mysterious new plot thing actually collides with "wondering what a character is going to do next". It interferes with what the player could come up with what the character would do, because apparently the writers of the game have something specific in mind, something that connects the Warden and Hawke, some kind of big abduction mystery or something like that. I don't mind the idea of that. Great if you have an exciting plan, but I do mind that it is so suddenly thrown in at the very end of the game, screaming FIND OUT WHAT IS GOING ON BY BUYING DA3 at me. That is what makes it unsatisfactory for me. Does the next game really need this kind of cliffhangers to be found worthy of buying? There already has been a mystery introduced that still remains unclear (Flemeth) and the beginning of a new great problem (mage-templar war). Both have my interest. Personally I don't feel like I needed a cliffhanger like this to be convinced to purchase a new DA game. 

The mystery of Hawke's disappearance could easily have been introduced in the new game, since that game is probably going to address the issue anyway. In that way you give the player the freedom to imagine what happens with Hawke when DA2 is finished, providing closure to the central story of DA2 at the same time (= Meredith has been defeated, mage-templar war has begun, and no last-minute big mystery introduced). I don't care if the next game messes up what I had imagined for my Hawkes. I do not hold my "headcanon" as sacred. But nothing has been gained by throwing it in the player's face already. Cliffhangers are well-suited for tv shows, when you get the next episode over a week or so, or at the end of summer. For a game, where you will have to wait two years or more for the story to continue, it is not so great.

[Arthur Cousland]

I just hate that Bioware pulled the plug on DA: Origins dlc, when they supposedly had over 2 years of dlc planned, then they canceled the DA2 expansion to focus on DA3. DA2 sorely needs an expansion, and now it will be forever incomplete.

I'd like to hope that if Bioware are going to give DA2 an early death, just like Origins, it will be worth it with DA3 being the best DA game yet.

[Taritu]

David Gaider wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...
I don't like Hawk, but to be fair toward those who care about him, yes, he lacked closure to me. He becomes viscount but disappears a while after, so it's not true that it is fine. Why did he need to vanish while he was the viscount ?

See, this is what I mean.

The idea that a character might move onto a new story is not really a lack of closure-- for the character, perhaps, but not the story. Wondering what a character is going to do next is not a lack of closure... or, at least, not the sort we would worry about. I don't really see a requirement to end a story with "and the character went on to be happy and nothing of interest occurred to them again", and players wanting to know more is understandable but not really an issue.

And I know that's not necessarily the sentimenet being expressed. Someone might feel the ending they did receive wasn't satisfactory... but, again, that's not the same thing as lacking closure in the narraive. Which makes it difficult for me, when people talk about this, to discern whether they're talking about one thing or the other.

But it's cool. Discussing one's feelings isn't a science, after all.

To me the issue with Hawke was that she made no decisions that seemed to matter at the end.  I wanted an end where she made decisions that mattered.  (I won't go into the whole discussion of why her decisions didn't matter, that's been hashed over.)  I felt like her life was essentially meaningless, just a really really good fighter caught up in events beyond her.  I would have liked an expansion so I could feel she ended by doing something that mattered.

Just my opinion, I'm aware many disagree.  The funny thing is, I actually really liked Hawke (sarcastic version).  Felt like it wasn't the story I thought it was, and that sort of thing (and endings) can wreck the memories of something someone otherwise enjoyed.  (For me, everything up to but not including the fight with the Arishok (for gameplay reasons) was good.  After that, blech.)

[Taritu]

Stanley Woo wrote...

PresidentCowboy wrote...

What was the delay in getting the news to us on the cancellation of DA2 if it wasn't a recent thing?

There was no "delay." We decide what to say and when we're going to say it. Repeatedly requesting, demanding or begging for information doesn't change that. Sorry.

A truly remarkable statement.  Really.

[Taritu]

You promise one thing and you deliver another (Hawke's choices matter - the promise/ no they don't -- the reality) and it will always cause problems. ME3 is finding this out, bigtime.

DA3 really needs to be good for the sake of the franchise. Step 1, don't cram the development time too short. Step 2, align expectations with the actual product.

[NedPepper]

Deeply disappointed. The story is unfinished. Of course, this is no win situation. Those of us who stood by this game got screwed. Those who bashed this game....were never going to buy it anyway. And many claim to be done with Dragon Age, period. Now...everyone is disappointed. Again, it's no win. You guys at Bioware have had a lot of those recently. Yeesh.

[NedPepper]

David Gaider wrote...

renjility wrote...
The ending felt more unfinished due to Leliana's remark about the Warden and Hawke both disappearing, which is apparently "no coincidence". That turned the ending more into an odd and unexpected cliffhanger, raising a little too many questions for many people.

Sure, but the existence of questions-- even new ones-- does not mean an ending has not occurred. Characters do move off into the sunset, their lives not quite finished and going onto other adventures outside of the narrative... being personally invested in that tale, and left wondering what those "other adventures" might be, is understandable (and complimentary). Not complete closure, sure... but then again I'm not certain "complete closure" is always required.

Just my opinion, of course. I don't think there's an accepted route for this sort of tale, especially considering the differences between this sort of story and a regular one.

Since we're being candid, I have a question to this response.  Did you, as lead writer, intend to end Hawke's story with his disappearance and Leliana's cliffhanger speech?  If so, why even make an expansion?  This is all very frustrating.  Then again, as someone who loved the game and supported it, I guess I haven't time to mourn it.  I remember defending Dragon Age 2 in that I believed you guys were going for a serialized style of storytelling through DLCs.  (A comic book approach.) And someone pulled the plug before you could finish the story.  That's the way it feels. 

I'd be happy with another book, but you can't finish Hawke's story in a book.  That's the point of PLAYING THE GAME.  A part of me wants to rant about the fanbase for destroying the game before it even launched...the horrible things said on this forum....about both DA 2 and now Mass Effect 3...and how it affects the strength of the IP.  But I'm quite frankly tired of it.  This just bums me out.