384 réponses à ce sujet

[ArkkAngel007]

No one said Shepard was indoctrinated at the time. Those that did need to check their own theory.

How hard is it responding within established threads instead of creating a new thread that targets a specific group of players who just have a different view on the endings?

And BioWare did not scrap indoctrination. They scrapped a sequence making the player lose control of their character and trying to fight that due to technical limitations. No where does it say the whole concept is dropped.

I get why people don't want indoctrination to be true. It means that two of the three choices (w/high EMS) put their Shepard in a bad place to put it lightly. However, that isn't an excuse to be doing these types of threads and making all of BSN look like pretentious snobs.

Let people have their speculation, especially if you can't even take the time to do nothing but argue supplemental speculation of the theory that isn't a real piece of it.

[GBGriffin]

Smiley556 wrote...

GBGriffin wrote...

If anything, the fact they basically said they scrapped the idea works better than this argument

They scrapped the idea of making the player lose control of shepard partly/fully in gameplay. If anything this confirms that Bioware was atleast thinking about having shepard indoctrinated.

I'm acknowledging that they considered it, but tbh, I do not think they launched the game with this in mind. I think they rushed it and launched it as is with no current plans for post-ending DLC, which is really the only thing that makes the Ind. theory appealing: the fact that Shep might "wake up" for the final fight.

[lex0r11]

"the indoctrination theory is false and stupid."

you really think people will take you serious?

try to use another way to convey an opinion. calling a theory stupid with an assumption about how tech detects indoctrination in a fictional universe? nobody outside bioware knows that, indoc theory stands as it is until bioware says otherwise. the same goes for 'this is the real ending'.

[S1at3]

Both sides are going to warp and skew the facts to suit their arguements. Wait and see what Bioware says.

[CavScout]

savionen wrote...

I get the feeling the people that keep bringing up the VI question either didn't have the DLC or just ignored Javik.

The Protheans final stand failed because their VI didn't detect sleeper agents.

You're making a jump that all Protheans were some how near the VI.

[KevShep]

Holiday wrote...

 Do you remember the Prothean VI on Thessia that Kai Leng took to the Cerberus station? If you do, then you'd also remember that it was able to discern between people who were indoctrinated and people who weren't. It stated that both the Illusive Man and Kai Leng were indeed indoctrinated, while at the same time, stated that Shepard wasn't indoctrinated. There you go. Indoctrination theory disproven.

no. no. no. no!  Your not seeing it right. Here is what WE mean...

Shepard STARTS to be indoctrinated when he is knocked out by Harbingers laser. after he wakes up everything starts to get very wrong. That "kid" just happends to look like the kid in his dream with no explantion or question why from shepard. Shepard is also out in space with no enviroment suit. If you pick that right option you see Shepard at the end in a pile of rubble and takes a breath. This pile of rubble is the same exact rubble as you see when your runing to the beam of light in london!

[ArkkAngel007]

Smiley556 wrote...

BobbyDylan wrote...

I though he didn't get *snip* indocrinated till the laser hit him. He's currently lying in London, in a subconcouse battle with Harbinger, over his free will.

The Space Magic was just Harbingers way of getting Shepard to relax and lower his defenses.

Infact he doesnt get fully indoctrinated untill you choose the synthesis or control option. Anything before that is attempts at indoctrinating shepard. The idea is, if you choose destroy, shepard never becomes *snip* indoctrinated.

FTFY

Modifié par ArkkAngel007, 20 mars 2012 - 02:29 .

[annoyingpoodle]

CavScout wrote...

Vhalkyrie wrote...

No evidence?  The entire "From Ashes" DLC was about it.  Javik's entire crew was indoctrinated.

If you haven't played the DLC, then check the wiki.

http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Javik

So if Prothean VI was infallible in detecting the indoctrinated, how the heck did his entire crew become compromised?

The DLC does not address if Javik's crew was exposed to a indoctrinated detecting VI. You're making a leap of logic by concluding that VI + Javik's history means "partial" indoctrinated folks are undetectable by the VI.

Javik said that it could not detect sleeper agents of the reapers.

Modifié par annoyingpoodle, 20 mars 2012 - 02:29 .

[CavScout]

annoyingpoodle wrote...

CavScout wrote...

Vhalkyrie wrote...

No evidence?  The entire "From Ashes" DLC was about it.  Javik's entire crew was indoctrinated.

If you haven't played the DLC, then check the wiki.

http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Javik

So if Prothean VI was infallible in detecting the indoctrinated, how the heck did his entire crew become compromised?

The DLC does not address if Javik's crew was exposed to a indoctrinated detecting VI. You're making a leap of logic by concluding that VI + Javik's history means "partial" indoctrinated folks are undetectable by the VI.

Javik said that it could not detect sleeper agents of the reapers.

Please show where  he says this....

[annoyingpoodle]

CavScout wrote...

annoyingpoodle wrote...

CavScout wrote...

Vhalkyrie wrote...

No evidence?  The entire "From Ashes" DLC was about it.  Javik's entire crew was indoctrinated.

If you haven't played the DLC, then check the wiki.

http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Javik

So if Prothean VI was infallible in detecting the indoctrinated, how the heck did his entire crew become compromised?

The DLC does not address if Javik's crew was exposed to a indoctrinated detecting VI. You're making a leap of logic by concluding that VI + Javik's history means "partial" indoctrinated folks are undetectable by the VI.

Javik said that it could not detect sleeper agents of the reapers.

Please show where  he says this....

On thessia

[CavScout]

annoyingpoodle wrote...

CavScout wrote...

annoyingpoodle wrote...

CavScout wrote...

Vhalkyrie wrote...

No evidence?  The entire "From Ashes" DLC was about it.  Javik's entire crew was indoctrinated.

If you haven't played the DLC, then check the wiki.

http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Javik

So if Prothean VI was infallible in detecting the indoctrinated, how the heck did his entire crew become compromised?

The DLC does not address if Javik's crew was exposed to a indoctrinated detecting VI. You're making a leap of logic by concluding that VI + Javik's history means "partial" indoctrinated folks are undetectable by the VI.

Javik said that it could not detect sleeper agents of the reapers.

Please show where  he says this....

On thessia

Proof?

[GBGriffin]

S1at3 wrote...

Both sides are going to warp and skew the facts to suit their arguements. Wait and see what Bioware says.

It does seem silly to argue over it while waiting for an official statement, but seeing as that will probably take some time, at least it gives people something to do, I guess.

[AtlasMickey]

lex0r11 wrote...

"the indoctrination theory is false and stupid."

you really think people will take you serious?

try to use another way to convey an opinion. calling a theory stupid with an assumption about how tech detects indoctrination in a fictional universe? nobody outside bioware knows that, indoc theory stands as it is until bioware says otherwise. the same goes for 'this is the real ending'.

BioWare did say otherwise and they hired Buzz Aldrin to do it. A kid asked him, "did that all really happen?" and he said, "Yes.. it all happened."

[thegame30]

savionen wrote...

I get the feeling the people that keep bringing up the VI question either didn't have the DLC or just ignored Javik.

The Protheans final stand failed because their VI didn't detect sleeper agents.

Agree Javik was clear, besides what about the mass relays in the DLC arrival we learn that if this things are destroy it takes out the system with a supernova... Hello at the end we see all mass relays go boom!

[BobbyDylan]

AtlasMickey wrote...

lex0r11 wrote...

"the indoctrination theory is false and stupid."

you really think people will take you serious?

try to use another way to convey an opinion. calling a theory stupid with an assumption about how tech detects indoctrination in a fictional universe? nobody outside bioware knows that, indoc theory stands as it is until bioware says otherwise. the same goes for 'this is the real ending'.

BioWare did say otherwise and they hired Buzz Aldrin to do it. A kid asked him, "did that all really happen?" and he said, "Yes.. it all happened."

If I'm describing a dream to you, and told you at the bigging, that it was a dream, and you asked me if I was serious and that happened, I'd say yes.

For all we know, Buzz is reaffirming the fact that Shep was indocrinated.

[savionen]

Bioware hasn't made any sort of official statement on Indoctrination that I know of.

The only point they really talked about it was in the documentary, saying they planned on having an indoctrination game mechanic, that they got rid of. Doesn't mean indoctrination is still in the game, doesn't mean they got rid of it either. A shooter is still a shooter if you decide to get rid of a shooter mechanic like a reload animation.

[Vhalkyrie]

CavScout wrote...

The DLC does not address if Javik's crew was exposed to a indoctrinated detecting VI. You're making a leap of logic by concluding that VI + Javik's history means "partial" indoctrinated folks are undetectable by the VI.

So the Protheans were not bright enough to install indoctrinating detection software on their ships to detect sleeper agents.  No wonder they went extinct to allow that security oversight.

[Smiley556]

GBGriffin wrote...

Smiley556 wrote...

GBGriffin wrote...

If anything, the fact they basically said they scrapped the idea works better than this argument

They scrapped the idea of making the player lose control of shepard partly/fully in gameplay. If anything this confirms that Bioware was atleast thinking about having shepard indoctrinated.

I'm acknowledging that they considered it, but tbh, I do not think they launched the game with this in mind. I think they rushed it and launched it as is with no current plans for post-ending DLC, which is really the only thing that makes the Ind. theory appealing: the fact that Shep might "wake up" for the final fight.

And thats a completely valid opinion that might just be true. I dont believe in indoctrination because it is more appealing though, I believe it because it makes more sense than the alternate explenation and because it is how I experienced the ending. As long as no better explenation for the ending is presented, how can I disbelieve the explenation that makes sense?

Meanwhile I'm appaled by biowares behaviour about all this and I too am considering the fact Bioware did **** up and have nothing planned for post-ending DLC. That only makes the way I experienced the ending bring even Less closure. Hell I wish I could believe in the god child space magic explenation, atleast I would have more closure to the story.

Modifié par Smiley556, 20 mars 2012 - 02:42 .

[Walsh1980]

The way I see it, Javik was around at the very tail end of a centuries old war. The infiltration happened at the beginning, since then they came up with ways to detect indoctrination. They would have no reason to have it at the start, the protheans, unlike Shepard's time, were taken by surprise. The reaper's have no need for sleeper agents in Javik's time, all the VI can do is tell you yep that's your friend and now he's trying to kill you.

And yes the relays "go boom" but in an intended, non-catastrophic way than throwing an asteroid into one.

[Drake-Shepard]

the second time you find the VI. Vendetta says

'security over-ridden...i can comply'

or some crap like that.

Why would he say that to shepard. Is shepard further along the indoctrination now..after Thessia the writers made a point to show him extra hopeless and depressed. Even i thought...thats a bit much...stop whining!

[Agamo45]

The theory isn't perfect, but it's about the only way for BW to salvage the mess they made.

[Siven80]

Indoctrination theory is better than believing that the confusing and nonsensical ending really happened.

Could just be a simple hallucination after being hit by the beam though.

[Scam_poo]

Let's say if it's Harbinger personally indoctrinating Shepard, you'd think a Prothean VI (coming from a civilisation getting frequently infiltrated and indoctrinated) could recognize that? Besides, Shepard was never being fully indoctrinated like Kai Leng. The VI could recognize fully ID individuals, but not partially ID ones (Shepard's indoctrination began with the first kid encounter right at the beginning of ME3, where Anderson interrupts Harbinger's ID attempt)

[GamingKoala]

TarielMaeda wrote...

IMO he doesn't become indoctrinated, he just gets hit with it and is resisting it. An "indoctrinated" individual is one that has given in. If Shep hasn't given in yet, he's not indoctrinated. The closest he comes to being indoctrinated is on the Citadel with Anderson and TIM.

This. Not for or against the theory, but this is a good counter argument. 

[wtbusername]

yumesama wrote...

Holiday wrote...

 Do you remember the Prothean VI on Thessia that Kai Leng took to the Cerberus station? If you do, then you'd also remember that it was able to discern between people who were indoctrinated and people who weren't. It stated that both the Illusive Man and Kai Leng were indeed indoctrinated, while at the same time, stated that Shepard wasn't indoctrinated. There you go. Indoctrination theory disproven.

The Theory is that the ending is the actual indoctrination attempt, and IF you wake up in the rubble of londin after it (the "best" ending in the strategy guide"), then you beat the indoctrination. 

If you don't wake up, you've succumbed to the indoctrination illusion, and you let the reaper illusion control your actions from there on out.

The VI says that Shepard isn't indoctrinated because he isn't. He still controls his own actions. Until the indoctrination attempt at the end.

This. A thousand times.

Which is about the amount I have made a thread to make this clear.

People still choose to remain oblivious.