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[Own-u-4-life]

Correct me if im wrong but at that point he isn't Indoctronated but after the encounter with harbringer.... So this thread is useless !

[Sibbwolf]

Holiday wrote...

 Do you remember the Prothean VI on Thessia that Kai Leng took to the Cerberus station? If you do, then you'd also remember that it was able to discern between people who were indoctrinated and people who weren't. It stated that both the Illusive Man and Kai Leng were indeed indoctrinated, while at the same time, stated that Shepard wasn't indoctrinated. There you go. Indoctrination theory disproven.

Nope. It isn't disproven.

Indoctrination is a process, not a switch. Indoctrinated indicates that the process has reached a critical point - the individual is no longer the master of their own actions.

Shepard may be in the process, but not at that point when encountering the VI.

[Jaze55]

Agamo45 wrote...

The theory isn't perfect, but it's about the only way for BW to salvage the mess they made.

Why do peopl keep saying that? Why does everyone all of a sudden thing they are better writers then Bioware?

It's extremely arrogant. I am not even saying anything AGAINST the indoc theory this time for 1 reason.

Someone made 1 point that now I CAN accept it ONLY because THIS is dumb.

A big super weapon - that you need to jump into or shoot to make go off. That is THE only reason I am now OK with it. 
I STILL thing it's a delusional theory. I still think people who are seeing "hints' and "proof" and this it was "intended" are completely insane. But it can fit. 

BUT - can we PLEASE stop telling BW how to fix it, and let's see what THEY come up with, instead of being arrogant pricks telling them what do do?

[GBGriffin]

MassEffected555 wrote...

Agamo45 wrote...

The theory isn't perfect, but it's about the only way for BW to salvage the mess they made.

Why do peopl keep saying that? Why does everyone all of a sudden thing they are better writers then Bioware?

It's extremely arrogant. I am not even saying anything AGAINST the indoc theory this time for 1 reason.

Someone made 1 point that now I CAN accept it ONLY because THIS is dumb.

A big super weapon - that you need to jump into or shoot to make go off. That is THE only reason I am now OK with it. 
I STILL thing it's a delusional theory. I still think people who are seeing "hints' and "proof" and this it was "intended" are completely insane. But it can fit. 

BUT - can we PLEASE stop telling BW how to fix it, and let's see what THEY come up with, instead of being arrogant pricks telling them what do do?

Because they wrote a poor ending. Arrogant or not, people have actually written better endings and posted them on the forums.

Also, they opened a suggestion thread for people to make suggestions. They're supposedly welcoming input based on this.

[Drake-Shepard]

wtbusername wrote...

yumesama wrote...

Holiday wrote...

 Do you remember the Prothean VI on Thessia that Kai Leng took to the Cerberus station? If you do, then you'd also remember that it was able to discern between people who were indoctrinated and people who weren't. It stated that both the Illusive Man and Kai Leng were indeed indoctrinated, while at the same time, stated that Shepard wasn't indoctrinated. There you go. Indoctrination theory disproven.

The Theory is that the ending is the actual indoctrination attempt, and IF you wake up in the rubble of londin after it (the "best" ending in the strategy guide"), then you beat the indoctrination. 

If you don't wake up, you've succumbed to the indoctrination illusion, and you let the reaper illusion control your actions from there on out.

The VI says that Shepard isn't indoctrinated because he isn't. He still controls his own actions. Until the indoctrination attempt at the end.

This. A thousand times.

Which is about the amount I have made a thread to make this clear.

People still choose to remain oblivious.

for some reason it is more likely then BW made 40 plot holes to some people.....

[bwFex]

Holiday wrote...

 Do you remember the Prothean VI on Thessia that Kai Leng took to the Cerberus station? If you do, then you'd also remember that it was able to discern between people who were indoctrinated and people who weren't. It stated that both the Illusive Man and Kai Leng were indeed indoctrinated, while at the same time, stated that Shepard wasn't indoctrinated. There you go. Indoctrination theory disproven.

This argument has been brought up so many times I've lost count.

First of all, most indoctrination theorists don't believe Shepard was indoctrinated until the London scene.

Second, even if Shepard was in the early stages of indoctrination, we still don't know how a VI actually detects indoctrination, and it's entirely possible that Shepard's level of indoctrination simply wasn't over the trigger threshhold.

Next counterpoint?

Modifié par bwFex, 20 mars 2012 - 03:00 .

[Mcjon01]

The biggest plot hole in the Indoctrination Theory is that anything at all happens after being hit by Harbinger's beam. This is also the biggest plot hole in the standard interpretations of the ending.

Taking a stream of molten metal accelerated to near light speed, right to the face? You're dead, the end. Survival is ridiculous.

[Raanz]

hehe nice try.

The Prothean VI detected "indoctrinated". Meaning, this individual is already indoctrinated.

The theory is about the end of the game and the "attempt" at indoctrination. Were they successful or not.
As someone already pointed out....it's not a switch it's a process. Re-read the codex entries about it.

[KevShep]

Raanz wrote...

hehe nice try.

The Prothean VI detected "indoctrinated". Meaning, this individual is already indoctrinated.

The theory is about the end of the game and the "attempt" at indoctrination. Were they successful or not.
As someone already pointed out....it's not a switch it's a process. Re-read the codex entries about it.

You forget about quick indoctrination....Implants! Remember that Shepard has reaper tech in him and they mite have been waiting for the right moment to try to indoctrinate him.

Modifié par KevShep, 20 mars 2012 - 03:28 .

[v0rt3x22]

Holiday wrote...

 Do you remember the Prothean VI on Thessia that Kai Leng took to the Cerberus station? If you do, then you'd also remember that it was able to discern between people who were indoctrinated and people who weren't. It stated that both the Illusive Man and Kai Leng were indeed indoctrinated, while at the same time, stated that Shepard wasn't indoctrinated. There you go. Indoctrination theory disproven.

Wrong and if you took a little time to actually read the material you'd come to realize that the indoc theory revolves around Shepard being indoc'ed in the end of the game - not during the VI.

[Agamo45]

MassEffected555 wrote...

Agamo45 wrote...

The theory isn't perfect, but it's about the only way for BW to salvage the mess they made.

Why do peopl keep saying that? Why does everyone all of a sudden thing they are better writers then Bioware?

It's extremely arrogant. I am not even saying anything AGAINST the indoc theory this time for 1 reason.

Someone made 1 point that now I CAN accept it ONLY because THIS is dumb.

A big super weapon - that you need to jump into or shoot to make go off. That is THE only reason I am now OK with it. 
I STILL thing it's a delusional theory. I still think people who are seeing "hints' and "proof" and this it was "intended" are completely insane. But it can fit. 

BUT - can we PLEASE stop telling BW how to fix it, and let's see what THEY come up with, instead of being arrogant pricks telling them what do do?

Considering how bad the ending was, both story-wise and writing wise, I don't see what's so arrogant about that. As someone else said, fans wrote better endings than the **** that the BW writers put out.

[jkflipflopDAO]

Mims wrote...

But you could also make the good counter argument of: if the protheans had the technology to accurately predict indoctrination, why did they keep getting infiltrated?

/not for or against the theory.

It had been over 100 years of war by the time they made that VI. There are no leaders at that time, just generals.

[Jaze55]

Drake-Shepard wrote...

the second time you find the VI. Vendetta says

'security over-ridden...i can comply'

or some crap like that.

Why would he say that to shepard. Is shepard further along the indoctrination now..after Thessia the writers made a point to show him extra hopeless and depressed. Even i thought...thats a bit much...stop whining!

He also says ' You have come to rescue me from indoctrinated forces"
He only says "defense is down i will comply" when asked what the catalyst was.


Conviently forgot that part eh?

[Madosu]

Or maybe Shepard wasn't indoctrinated until when Harbinger blasts him/her in the face

[jkflipflopDAO]

Madosu wrote...

Or maybe Shepard wasn't indoctrinated until when Harbinger blasts him/her in the face

So if the whole point is to stop shepard, why would you bother screwing with his mind at all when Shep is laying there unconcious? He's literally knocked out RIGHT THERE. All Harby has to do is step on him or hit him with the laser. 

But Harby instead decideds the best way to stop Shepard is to start indoctrinating him while he's knocked out, and then fly away leaving the path to the beam undefended? Nope, sorry. I don't buy it at all.

Modifié par jkflipflopDAO, 20 mars 2012 - 03:48 .

[Jaze55]

Agamo45 wrote...

MassEffected555 wrote...

Agamo45 wrote...

The theory isn't perfect, but it's about the only way for BW to salvage the mess they made.

Why do peopl keep saying that? Why does everyone all of a sudden thing they are better writers then Bioware?

It's extremely arrogant. I am not even saying anything AGAINST the indoc theory this time for 1 reason.

Someone made 1 point that now I CAN accept it ONLY because THIS is dumb.

A big super weapon - that you need to jump into or shoot to make go off. That is THE only reason I am now OK with it. 
I STILL thing it's a delusional theory. I still think people who are seeing "hints' and "proof" and this it was "intended" are completely insane. But it can fit. 

BUT - can we PLEASE stop telling BW how to fix it, and let's see what THEY come up with, instead of being arrogant pricks telling them what do do?

Considering how bad the ending was, both story-wise and writing wise, I don't see what's so arrogant about that. As someone else said, fans wrote better endings than the **** that the BW writers put out.

The arrogant part is the 897 twitter tweets linking to the theory. The arrogant part is the 749 comments linking the theory on the facebook page. The arrogant part is the 489 threads "proving" to everyone it's the correct ending.

I think Bioware and everyone esle knows about the theory already. It is arrogant. I am on your side about getting the endings changes and I think it arrogant. What do you think people on the other side think? It's really nothing but fuel for them. Honestly every time I see a thread about it it makes me want to do everything in my power to stop the movement. Its having the reverse effect on me, it is indoctrinating me to the other side. You know, the one that keeps telling us to STFU. 

Modifié par MassEffected555, 20 mars 2012 - 03:48 .

[scrapmetals]

Uuuuh, logic, you're doing it wrong.

You guys remember those things called the Collectors? Who were indoctrinated Protheans? That no VI was able to detect?

[ArkkAngel007]

Agamo45 wrote...

The theory isn't perfect, but it's about the only way for BW to salvage the mess they made.

It's a nice theory, but it isn't the only way for BW to salvage this, if they can even manage that with how furious people are.

And while I don't agree with the negative remarks toward the theory from some people, I will say this: it isn't to provide an alternate or additional ending.  It's just there to explain the plot-holes and odd occurences after Harbringers beam.  Yes, I realize quite a few have gotten overzealous and taken it further.  But that's all it is.

If it's true, great, give us some real closure.  If it's false, fine, but give us an explanation and some closure.

[jkflipflopDAO]

scrapmetals wrote...

Uuuuh, logic, you're doing it wrong.

You guys remember those things called the Collectors? Who were indoctrinated Protheans? That no VI was able to detect?

What are you talking about? As far as I know, we've never seen a collector come in contact with a Prothean VI.

[ArkkAngel007]

scrapmetals wrote...

Uuuuh, logic, you're doing it wrong.

You guys remember those things called the Collectors? Who were indoctrinated Protheans? That no VI was able to detect?

Ironic post here 

It's pretty clear the indoctrinated agents weren't Collectors.  That's like calling a Marauder an indoctrinated agent.

The Collector's were a part of the Reaper attack on Eden Prime, not the subterfuge.

Modifié par ArkkAngel007, 20 mars 2012 - 03:52 .

[jkflipflopDAO]

ArkkAngel007 wrote...

scrapmetals wrote...

Uuuuh, logic, you're doing it wrong.

You guys remember those things called the Collectors? Who were indoctrinated Protheans? That no VI was able to detect?

Ironic post here 

It's pretty clear the indoctrinated agents weren't Collectors.  That's like calling a Marauder an indoctrinated agent.

The Collector's were a part of the Reaper attack on Eden Prime, not the subterfuge.

LOL it's a little obvious by that stage, no?

[KaeserZen]

Some people just don't get the indoctrination theory, do they...

[scrapmetals]

ArkkAngel007 wrote...

scrapmetals wrote...

Uuuuh, logic, you're doing it wrong.

You guys remember those things called the Collectors? Who were indoctrinated Protheans? That no VI was able to detect?

Ironic post here 

It's pretty clear the indoctrinated agents weren't Collectors.  That's like calling a Marauder an indoctrinated agent.

The Collector's were a part of the Reaper attack on Eden Prime, not the subterfuge.

"While studying Collector data in the lab aboard the Normandy SR-2, Mordin Solus determines that the Reapers indoctrinated
the Protheans and compensated for their growing lack of ability due to
prolonged indoctrination through cybernetic modifications"

jkflipflopDAO wrote...

scrapmetals wrote...

Uuuuh, logic, you're doing it wrong.

You guys remember those things called the Collectors? Who were indoctrinated Protheans? That no VI was able to detect?

What are you talking about? As far as I know, we've never seen a collector come in contact with a Prothean VI.

Javik was carrying a VI. Collector's were on his planet. Who's to say they didn't come into contact with those VIs?

Modifié par scrapmetals, 20 mars 2012 - 03:54 .

[Asenkah]

annoyingpoodle wrote...

seeing thessia fall broke shepard and that's when the indoctrination started to really take hold. When he was on the cerberus base and talked to the VI the second time it said "security protocols overridden I will comply" which is implying that Shepard is now indoctrinated and the VI would not normally have responded to him.

I think this holds the most weight with the "theory" at least. Since after Thessia is when Shep has the deam where s/he catches up to the child and burns with him as well, yet somehow also stands outside and witnesses it. Also the kids face during this part is somewhat telling, almost the same animation he makes when you chose the Control option at the end.

[ElementL09]

Holiday wrote...

 Do you remember the Prothean VI on Thessia that Kai Leng took to the Cerberus station? If you do, then you'd also remember that it was able to discern between people who were indoctrinated and people who weren't. It stated that both the Illusive Man and Kai Leng were indeed indoctrinated, while at the same time, stated that Shepard wasn't indoctrinated. There you go. Indoctrination theory disproven.

Funny, if Prothean VI could actually sense Indocturnation, then why were the Protheans getting infiltrated by Indocturnated spies?  Can Indocturnation be so subtle that a VI couldn't detect? 

I see alot people saying the theory is false and providing some evidence, but I don't see anyone actually making sense of the ending that we already got.  I would really like to see that.