jkflipflopDAO wrote...
scrapmetals wrote...
Uuuuh, logic, you're doing it wrong.
You guys remember those things called the Collectors? Who were indoctrinated Protheans? That no VI was able to detect?
What are you talking about? As far as I know, we've never seen a collector come in contact with a Prothean VI.
Modifié par Unit-Alpha, 20 mars 2012 - 03:55 .
Asenkah wrote...
annoyingpoodle wrote...
seeing thessia fall broke shepard and that's when the indoctrination started to really take hold. When he was on the cerberus base and talked to the VI the second time it said "security protocols overridden I will comply" which is implying that Shepard is now indoctrinated and the VI would not normally have responded to him.
I think this holds the most weight with the "theory" at least. Since after Thessia is when Shep has the deam where s/he catches up to the child and burns with him as well, yet somehow also stands outside and witnesses it. Also the kids face during this part is somewhat telling, almost the same animation he makes when you chose the Control option at the end.
Darknessfalls23 wrote...
Does anyone else have the feeling on April 1st 2012 Bioware will be like " SURPRISE That wasn't the real ending."
Guest_ConVito_*
MassEffected555 wrote...
Asenkah wrote...
annoyingpoodle wrote...
seeing thessia fall broke shepard and that's when the indoctrination started to really take hold. When he was on the cerberus base and talked to the VI the second time it said "security protocols overridden I will comply" which is implying that Shepard is now indoctrinated and the VI would not normally have responded to him.
I think this holds the most weight with the "theory" at least. Since after Thessia is when Shep has the deam where s/he catches up to the child and burns with him as well, yet somehow also stands outside and witnesses it. Also the kids face during this part is somewhat telling, almost the same animation he makes when you chose the Control option at the end.
NO FALSE
Stop leaving out stuff
He says
VI-
"You have come to rescue me from indoctrinated forces"
Shep or Liara askes or says "Tell me what the catalyst is"
VI- "Defense protocal disabled I will complay"
Dont leave **** out just to make if fit the theory.
Modifié par ULS 980, 20 mars 2012 - 04:12 .
ConVito wrote...
MassEffected555 wrote...
Asenkah wrote...
annoyingpoodle wrote...
seeing thessia fall broke shepard and that's when the indoctrination started to really take hold. When he was on the cerberus base and talked to the VI the second time it said "security protocols overridden I will comply" which is implying that Shepard is now indoctrinated and the VI would not normally have responded to him.
I think this holds the most weight with the "theory" at least. Since after Thessia is when Shep has the deam where s/he catches up to the child and burns with him as well, yet somehow also stands outside and witnesses it. Also the kids face during this part is somewhat telling, almost the same animation he makes when you chose the Control option at the end.
NO FALSE
Stop leaving out stuff
He says
VI-
"You have come to rescue me from indoctrinated forces"
Shep or Liara askes or says "Tell me what the catalyst is"
VI- "Defense protocal disabled I will complay"
Dont leave **** out just to make if fit the theory.
Ignoring the fact that you decide to disregard every explanation people have given for this, you've found one plothole in indoctrination theory. Congratulations. Compare that to the million plotholes if the ending is taken at face value. And you still insist on believing the latter?
Modifié par MassEffected555, 20 mars 2012 - 04:12 .
Holiday wrote...
Do you remember the Prothean VI on Thessia that Kai Leng took to the Cerberus station? If you do, then you'd also remember that it was able to discern between people who were indoctrinated and people who weren't. It stated that both the Illusive Man and Kai Leng were indeed indoctrinated, while at the same time, stated that Shepard wasn't indoctrinated. There you go. Indoctrination theory disproven.
ULS 980 wrote...
Couple things that have been bugging me.
Can we stop calling it an "indoctrination attempt". That implies the Reapers try indoctrination on an individual many times until they finally "crack them", like trying to throw cards into a hat. It also implies failure to indoctrinate someone, which isn't the case. Indoctrination always works (until, if the theory is correct, now). A closer analogy would be like putting a cup under a dripping faucet, where a full cup is full indoctrination.
Harbinger's not "attempting to indoctrinate Shepard". At the end, I think Harbinger just thought he killed Shepard. The only reason (again, if we subscribe to the theory) we get an "indoctrination sequence" is because at that point, Shepard's mental state is so battered that the indoctrination is finally starting to take real hold on his thoughts.
Doesn't really affect anything, I just think the phrase "indoctrination attempt" sounds incredibly stupid.
Secondly, Shepard's indoctrination (assuming the theory is correct) does not start when he's knocked out at the end. Indoctrination does not work that way. It's not a switch that Reapers flip and ten minutes later someone's indoctrinated. It's a subtle and drawn out process that doesn't draw attention to itself.
It more likely starts around the time he was knocked out on that base in Arrival, sitting a few rooms away from a massive Reaper artifact. Which explains part of why Shepard is second guessing himself and having nightmares and whatnot throughout ME3.
Lastly, the Prothean VI, as has already been stated, DOES recognize Shepard as indoctrinated (according to the theory), or at least partially so. Not on Thessia, but on TIM's base where Shepard asks him what the Catalyst is and the VI replies with "My security protocols have been overridden, I will comply", and the only time we've heard the VI use the phrase "Security protocol" is when he locked down because an indoctrinated presence showed up. It's not a statement or something just saying his protocols have been overridden. It's a direct reply to Shepard.
"I will comply" implies that had his protocols not been overridden, he would have refused to talk to Shepard.
Not necessarily throwing my hat into the indoctrination theory (nor saying I don't believe the theory is correct), just trying to clear some things up.
Modifié par terdferguson123, 20 mars 2012 - 04:25 .
Never said people can't resist indoctrination.terdferguson123 wrote...
ULS 980 wrote...
Couple things that have been bugging me.
Can we stop calling it an "indoctrination attempt". That implies the Reapers try indoctrination on an individual many times until they finally "crack them", like trying to throw cards into a hat. It also implies failure to indoctrinate someone, which isn't the case. Indoctrination always works (until, if the theory is correct, now). A closer analogy would be like putting a cup under a dripping faucet, where a full cup is full indoctrination.
Harbinger's not "attempting to indoctrinate Shepard". At the end, I think Harbinger just thought he killed Shepard. The only reason (again, if we subscribe to the theory) we get an "indoctrination sequence" is because at that point, Shepard's mental state is so battered that the indoctrination is finally starting to take real hold on his thoughts.
Doesn't really affect anything, I just think the phrase "indoctrination attempt" sounds incredibly stupid.
Secondly, Shepard's indoctrination (assuming the theory is correct) does not start when he's knocked out at the end. Indoctrination does not work that way. It's not a switch that Reapers flip and ten minutes later someone's indoctrinated. It's a subtle and drawn out process that doesn't draw attention to itself.
It more likely starts around the time he was knocked out on that base in Arrival, sitting a few rooms away from a massive Reaper artifact. Which explains part of why Shepard is second guessing himself and having nightmares and whatnot throughout ME3.
Lastly, the Prothean VI, as has already been stated, DOES recognize Shepard as indoctrinated (according to the theory), or at least partially so. Not on Thessia, but on TIM's base where Shepard asks him what the Catalyst is and the VI replies with "My security protocols have been overridden, I will comply", and the only time we've heard the VI use the phrase "Security protocol" is when he locked down because an indoctrinated presence showed up. It's not a statement or something just saying his protocols have been overridden. It's a direct reply to Shepard.
"I will comply" implies that had his protocols not been overridden, he would have refused to talk to Shepard.
Not necessarily throwing my hat into the indoctrination theory (nor saying I don't believe the theory is correct), just trying to clear some things up.
No, you are wrong, people can resist indoctrination. In the novels it explicitly talks about how when someone resists you can hear a Reaper growl. If you listen closely throughout ME3 you can hear said growl several times througout the game.
Modifié par ULS 980, 20 mars 2012 - 04:28 .
terdferguson123 wrote...
I don't know, I think people can resist Indoctrination. In the novels it explicitly talks about how when someone resists you can hear a Reaper growl. I understand what your saying about the cup analogy, but I think their is sufficient evidence that exists for the other side, that they will try until it works.If you listen closely throughout ME3 you can hear said growl several times througout the game.
Devil's advocate here, maybe, but you gotta admit, if the "growl" was a Reaper making Reaper noises outside, you have to admit the timing was pretty convenient. :UMcjon01 wrote...
How do you know it's the same growl? It was mentioned in a book, nobody ever heard it. And people like to point out the growling sound you hear when the boy disappears in the vent, while ignoring the fact that there's an actual Reaper right outside the building, stomping around doing Reaper things and making Reaper noises.
ULS 980 wrote...
Never said people can't resist indoctrination.terdferguson123 wrote...
ULS 980 wrote...
Couple things that have been bugging me.
Can we stop calling it an "indoctrination attempt". That implies the Reapers try indoctrination on an individual many times until they finally "crack them", like trying to throw cards into a hat. It also implies failure to indoctrinate someone, which isn't the case. Indoctrination always works (until, if the theory is correct, now). A closer analogy would be like putting a cup under a dripping faucet, where a full cup is full indoctrination.
Harbinger's not "attempting to indoctrinate Shepard". At the end, I think Harbinger just thought he killed Shepard. The only reason (again, if we subscribe to the theory) we get an "indoctrination sequence" is because at that point, Shepard's mental state is so battered that the indoctrination is finally starting to take real hold on his thoughts.
Doesn't really affect anything, I just think the phrase "indoctrination attempt" sounds incredibly stupid.
Secondly, Shepard's indoctrination (assuming the theory is correct) does not start when he's knocked out at the end. Indoctrination does not work that way. It's not a switch that Reapers flip and ten minutes later someone's indoctrinated. It's a subtle and drawn out process that doesn't draw attention to itself.
It more likely starts around the time he was knocked out on that base in Arrival, sitting a few rooms away from a massive Reaper artifact. Which explains part of why Shepard is second guessing himself and having nightmares and whatnot throughout ME3.
Lastly, the Prothean VI, as has already been stated, DOES recognize Shepard as indoctrinated (according to the theory), or at least partially so. Not on Thessia, but on TIM's base where Shepard asks him what the Catalyst is and the VI replies with "My security protocols have been overridden, I will comply", and the only time we've heard the VI use the phrase "Security protocol" is when he locked down because an indoctrinated presence showed up. It's not a statement or something just saying his protocols have been overridden. It's a direct reply to Shepard.
"I will comply" implies that had his protocols not been overridden, he would have refused to talk to Shepard.
Not necessarily throwing my hat into the indoctrination theory (nor saying I don't believe the theory is correct), just trying to clear some things up.
No, you are wrong, people can resist indoctrination. In the novels it explicitly talks about how when someone resists you can hear a Reaper growl. If you listen closely throughout ME3 you can hear said growl several times througout the game.
Saren, Shepard, Matriarch Benezia, and TIM prove this.
Just in the end, indoctrination is absolute (until now with Shepard, it would seem).
The only time that it was completely resisted was with Shiala, but that was on a technicality.
Modifié par MassEffected555, 20 mars 2012 - 04:34 .
Yep.MassEffected555 wrote...
ULS 980 wrote...
Never said people can't resist indoctrination.terdferguson123 wrote...
ULS 980 wrote...
Couple things that have been bugging me.
Can we stop calling it an "indoctrination attempt". That implies the Reapers try indoctrination on an individual many times until they finally "crack them", like trying to throw cards into a hat. It also implies failure to indoctrinate someone, which isn't the case. Indoctrination always works (until, if the theory is correct, now). A closer analogy would be like putting a cup under a dripping faucet, where a full cup is full indoctrination.
Harbinger's not "attempting to indoctrinate Shepard". At the end, I think Harbinger just thought he killed Shepard. The only reason (again, if we subscribe to the theory) we get an "indoctrination sequence" is because at that point, Shepard's mental state is so battered that the indoctrination is finally starting to take real hold on his thoughts.
Doesn't really affect anything, I just think the phrase "indoctrination attempt" sounds incredibly stupid.
Secondly, Shepard's indoctrination (assuming the theory is correct) does not start when he's knocked out at the end. Indoctrination does not work that way. It's not a switch that Reapers flip and ten minutes later someone's indoctrinated. It's a subtle and drawn out process that doesn't draw attention to itself.
It more likely starts around the time he was knocked out on that base in Arrival, sitting a few rooms away from a massive Reaper artifact. Which explains part of why Shepard is second guessing himself and having nightmares and whatnot throughout ME3.
Lastly, the Prothean VI, as has already been stated, DOES recognize Shepard as indoctrinated (according to the theory), or at least partially so. Not on Thessia, but on TIM's base where Shepard asks him what the Catalyst is and the VI replies with "My security protocols have been overridden, I will comply", and the only time we've heard the VI use the phrase "Security protocol" is when he locked down because an indoctrinated presence showed up. It's not a statement or something just saying his protocols have been overridden. It's a direct reply to Shepard.
"I will comply" implies that had his protocols not been overridden, he would have refused to talk to Shepard.
Not necessarily throwing my hat into the indoctrination theory (nor saying I don't believe the theory is correct), just trying to clear some things up.
No, you are wrong, people can resist indoctrination. In the novels it explicitly talks about how when someone resists you can hear a Reaper growl. If you listen closely throughout ME3 you can hear said growl several times througout the game.
Saren, Shepard, Matriarch Benezia, and TIM prove this.
Just in the end, indoctrination is absolute (until now with Shepard, it would seem).
The only time that it was completely resisted was with Shiala, but that was on a technicality.
Saren resisted for 2 minutes and just so he can kill himself
Benezia resisted to 2 minutes to give Shep info and then went right back to attacking Shep and team
Tim same as above, or you shoot him.
Shiala it is explained that the Thorium creature indoctrinated her and it overrode the Reaper Indoc. And even then, when the Thorium was killed Shiala still fetl the reaper indoctrination but the effect of the Thorium creature had on the colonly linked everyones mind and this is why she is able to resist the Reaper Indoc.
Modifié par ULS 980, 20 mars 2012 - 04:39 .
thegame30 wrote...
savionen wrote...
I get the feeling the people that keep bringing up the VI question either didn't have the DLC or just ignored Javik.
The Protheans final stand failed because their VI didn't detect sleeper agents.
Agree Javik was clear, besides what about the mass relays in the DLC arrival we learn that if this things are destroy it takes out the system with a supernova... Hello at the end we see all mass relays go boom!
annoyingpoodle wrote...
seeing thessia fall broke shepard and that's when the indoctrination started to really take hold. When he was on the cerberus base and talked to the VI the second time it said "security protocols overridden I will comply" which is implying that Shepard is now indoctrinated and the VI would not normally have responded to him.
Modifié par Terraforming2154, 20 mars 2012 - 04:41 .
ULS 980 wrote...
Yep.MassEffected555 wrote...
ULS 980 wrote...
Never said people can't resist indoctrination.terdferguson123 wrote...
ULS 980 wrote...
Couple things that have been bugging me.
Can we stop calling it an "indoctrination attempt". That implies the Reapers try indoctrination on an individual many times until they finally "crack them", like trying to throw cards into a hat. It also implies failure to indoctrinate someone, which isn't the case. Indoctrination always works (until, if the theory is correct, now). A closer analogy would be like putting a cup under a dripping faucet, where a full cup is full indoctrination.
Harbinger's not "attempting to indoctrinate Shepard". At the end, I think Harbinger just thought he killed Shepard. The only reason (again, if we subscribe to the theory) we get an "indoctrination sequence" is because at that point, Shepard's mental state is so battered that the indoctrination is finally starting to take real hold on his thoughts.
Doesn't really affect anything, I just think the phrase "indoctrination attempt" sounds incredibly stupid.
Secondly, Shepard's indoctrination (assuming the theory is correct) does not start when he's knocked out at the end. Indoctrination does not work that way. It's not a switch that Reapers flip and ten minutes later someone's indoctrinated. It's a subtle and drawn out process that doesn't draw attention to itself.
It more likely starts around the time he was knocked out on that base in Arrival, sitting a few rooms away from a massive Reaper artifact. Which explains part of why Shepard is second guessing himself and having nightmares and whatnot throughout ME3.
Lastly, the Prothean VI, as has already been stated, DOES recognize Shepard as indoctrinated (according to the theory), or at least partially so. Not on Thessia, but on TIM's base where Shepard asks him what the Catalyst is and the VI replies with "My security protocols have been overridden, I will comply", and the only time we've heard the VI use the phrase "Security protocol" is when he locked down because an indoctrinated presence showed up. It's not a statement or something just saying his protocols have been overridden. It's a direct reply to Shepard.
"I will comply" implies that had his protocols not been overridden, he would have refused to talk to Shepard.
Not necessarily throwing my hat into the indoctrination theory (nor saying I don't believe the theory is correct), just trying to clear some things up.
No, you are wrong, people can resist indoctrination. In the novels it explicitly talks about how when someone resists you can hear a Reaper growl. If you listen closely throughout ME3 you can hear said growl several times througout the game.
Saren, Shepard, Matriarch Benezia, and TIM prove this.
Just in the end, indoctrination is absolute (until now with Shepard, it would seem).
The only time that it was completely resisted was with Shiala, but that was on a technicality.
Saren resisted for 2 minutes and just so he can kill himself
Benezia resisted to 2 minutes to give Shep info and then went right back to attacking Shep and team
Tim same as above, or you shoot him.
Shiala it is explained that the Thorium creature indoctrinated her and it overrode the Reaper Indoc. And even then, when the Thorium was killed Shiala still fetl the reaper indoctrination but the effect of the Thorium creature had on the colonly linked everyones mind and this is why she is able to resist the Reaper Indoc.
It just comes down to how useful the Reapers want their victims.
If they just want a mindless drone or something, full on indoctrination.
If they want someone to keep their abilities, they aren't going to fully indoctrinate them or at least exert full control over them, which is what allows people to "resist" indoctrination I guess. Saren stated this pretty much when he said "I needed to make myself useful to Sovereign. If he exerted too much control over me, I'd become less capable".
bwFex wrote...
Holiday wrote...
Do you remember the Prothean VI on Thessia that Kai Leng took to the Cerberus station? If you do, then you'd also remember that it was able to discern between people who were indoctrinated and people who weren't. It stated that both the Illusive Man and Kai Leng were indeed indoctrinated, while at the same time, stated that Shepard wasn't indoctrinated. There you go. Indoctrination theory disproven.
This argument has been brought up so many times I've lost count.
First of all, most indoctrination theorists don't believe Shepard was indoctrinated until the London scene.
Second, even if Shepard was in the early stages of indoctrination, we still don't know how a VI actually detects indoctrination, and it's entirely possible that Shepard's level of indoctrination simply wasn't over the trigger threshhold.
Next counterpoint?
I dunno, I don't see how that disproves the theory.MassEffected555 wrote...
ULS 980 wrote...
Yep.MassEffected555 wrote...
ULS 980 wrote...
Never said people can't resist indoctrination.terdferguson123 wrote...
ULS 980 wrote...
Couple things that have been bugging me.
Can we stop calling it an "indoctrination attempt". That implies the Reapers try indoctrination on an individual many times until they finally "crack them", like trying to throw cards into a hat. It also implies failure to indoctrinate someone, which isn't the case. Indoctrination always works (until, if the theory is correct, now). A closer analogy would be like putting a cup under a dripping faucet, where a full cup is full indoctrination.
Harbinger's not "attempting to indoctrinate Shepard". At the end, I think Harbinger just thought he killed Shepard. The only reason (again, if we subscribe to the theory) we get an "indoctrination sequence" is because at that point, Shepard's mental state is so battered that the indoctrination is finally starting to take real hold on his thoughts.
Doesn't really affect anything, I just think the phrase "indoctrination attempt" sounds incredibly stupid.
Secondly, Shepard's indoctrination (assuming the theory is correct) does not start when he's knocked out at the end. Indoctrination does not work that way. It's not a switch that Reapers flip and ten minutes later someone's indoctrinated. It's a subtle and drawn out process that doesn't draw attention to itself.
It more likely starts around the time he was knocked out on that base in Arrival, sitting a few rooms away from a massive Reaper artifact. Which explains part of why Shepard is second guessing himself and having nightmares and whatnot throughout ME3.
Lastly, the Prothean VI, as has already been stated, DOES recognize Shepard as indoctrinated (according to the theory), or at least partially so. Not on Thessia, but on TIM's base where Shepard asks him what the Catalyst is and the VI replies with "My security protocols have been overridden, I will comply", and the only time we've heard the VI use the phrase "Security protocol" is when he locked down because an indoctrinated presence showed up. It's not a statement or something just saying his protocols have been overridden. It's a direct reply to Shepard.
"I will comply" implies that had his protocols not been overridden, he would have refused to talk to Shepard.
Not necessarily throwing my hat into the indoctrination theory (nor saying I don't believe the theory is correct), just trying to clear some things up.
No, you are wrong, people can resist indoctrination. In the novels it explicitly talks about how when someone resists you can hear a Reaper growl. If you listen closely throughout ME3 you can hear said growl several times througout the game.
Saren, Shepard, Matriarch Benezia, and TIM prove this.
Just in the end, indoctrination is absolute (until now with Shepard, it would seem).
The only time that it was completely resisted was with Shiala, but that was on a technicality.
Saren resisted for 2 minutes and just so he can kill himself
Benezia resisted to 2 minutes to give Shep info and then went right back to attacking Shep and team
Tim same as above, or you shoot him.
Shiala it is explained that the Thorium creature indoctrinated her and it overrode the Reaper Indoc. And even then, when the Thorium was killed Shiala still fetl the reaper indoctrination but the effect of the Thorium creature had on the colonly linked everyones mind and this is why she is able to resist the Reaper Indoc.
It just comes down to how useful the Reapers want their victims.
If they just want a mindless drone or something, full on indoctrination.
If they want someone to keep their abilities, they aren't going to fully indoctrinate them or at least exert full control over them, which is what allows people to "resist" indoctrination I guess. Saren stated this pretty much when he said "I needed to make myself useful to Sovereign. If he exerted too much control over me, I'd become less capable".
Another point the indoc theory seems to conviently leave out. They leave out a lot to support them and make up a lot to support them. I should say twist, not make up. To be fair all the stuff they see IS in the game, its just twisted to fit the theory.
What if shepperd wasn't indoctrinated at that point. Reapers could very well be able to apply indoctrination at varying strengths.Holiday wrote...
Do you remember the Prothean VI on Thessia that Kai Leng took to the Cerberus station? If you do, then you'd also remember that it was able to discern between people who were indoctrinated and people who weren't. It stated that both the Illusive Man and Kai Leng were indeed indoctrinated, while at the same time, stated that Shepard wasn't indoctrinated. There you go. Indoctrination theory disproven.
Modifié par Sunnyhat1, 20 mars 2012 - 04:49 .
Sunnyhat1 wrote...
What if shepperd wasn'T indoctrinated at that point. Reapers could very well be able to apply indoctrination at varying strengths.Holiday wrote...
Do you remember the Prothean VI on Thessia that Kai Leng took to the Cerberus station? If you do, then you'd also remember that it was able to discern between people who were indoctrinated and people who weren't. It stated that both the Illusive Man and Kai Leng were indeed indoctrinated, while at the same time, stated that Shepard wasn't indoctrinated. There you go. Indoctrination theory disproven.
From my point of view shepperd wasn't indoctrinated until right before the ending. Harbinger tries to indoctrinate him as a last resort to hinder him from reaching the citadel. He does it "quick and dirty", wich isn't as perfect as the slow, long term version. And that's the only reason shepperd can break out of it by choosing destroy. He's not immune to it or anything.
My 2 cents.
Sunnyhat1 wrote...
What if shepperd wasn'T indoctrinated at that point. Reapers could very well be able to apply indoctrination at varying strengths.Holiday wrote...
Do you remember the Prothean VI on Thessia that Kai Leng took to the Cerberus station? If you do, then you'd also remember that it was able to discern between people who were indoctrinated and people who weren't. It stated that both the Illusive Man and Kai Leng were indeed indoctrinated, while at the same time, stated that Shepard wasn't indoctrinated. There you go. Indoctrination theory disproven.
From my point of view shepperd wasn't indoctrinated until right before the ending. Harbinger tries to indoctrinate him as a last resort to hinder him from reaching the citadel. He does it "quick and dirty", wich isn't as perfect as the slow, long term version. And that's the only reason shepperd can break out of it by choosing destroy. He's not immune to it or anything.
My 2 cents.
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