384 réponses à ce sujet

[CavScout]

savionen wrote...

CavScout wrote...

ULS 980 wrote...

Mcjon01 wrote...

How do you know it's the same growl?  It was mentioned in a book, nobody ever heard it.  And people like to point out the growling sound you hear when the boy disappears in the vent, while ignoring the fact that there's an actual Reaper right outside the building, stomping around doing Reaper things and making Reaper noises.

Devil's advocate here, maybe, but you gotta admit, if the "growl" was a Reaper making Reaper noises outside, you have to admit the timing was pretty convenient. :U

Convenient for what? Play that mission again. There is Reaper "growling" going on constantly. Why would one, of many, instances of "growling" be convenient?

Isn't it more convenient to take a common place happening, the "growling", and claim to be evidence for some specific event?

It's a specific SFX, at key moments, not used at other places in the game.

LOL, no it's not. It used all the time when Reapers are walking around.

[Bazedragon]

ULS 980 wrote...
1: I'm just saying indoctrination is a continuous and drawn-out process that is ALWAYS successful in the end (at least until Shepard showed up, according to the theory).
Not one where the Reapers keep trying until it works. Like I said, think more like a glass being filled with drops from a faucet as opposed to trying to fling cards into a hat.

Not an easy point to argue, considering the lack of evidence to contradict your point... but also the lack of evidence really to back it up.
No matter when they started trying to indoctrinate Shepard (Beam hit, Arrival, hell even Virmire is a possibility) - considering he is remarkably strong-willed - it's possible he was able to resist their hold long enough to find a way to destroy them (the catalyst, if you take that ending as real); or is continuing to fight them and narrowly manages to push them out (assuming you get the "shepard alive" clip) if you go by indoctrination theory.

[ULS 980]

CavScout wrote...

savionen wrote...

CavScout wrote...

ULS 980 wrote...

Mcjon01 wrote...

How do you know it's the same growl?  It was mentioned in a book, nobody ever heard it.  And people like to point out the growling sound you hear when the boy disappears in the vent, while ignoring the fact that there's an actual Reaper right outside the building, stomping around doing Reaper things and making Reaper noises.

Devil's advocate here, maybe, but you gotta admit, if the "growl" was a Reaper making Reaper noises outside, you have to admit the timing was pretty convenient. :U

Convenient for what? Play that mission again. There is Reaper "growling" going on constantly. Why would one, of many, instances of "growling" be convenient?

Isn't it more convenient to take a common place happening, the "growling", and claim to be evidence for some specific event?

It's a specific SFX, at key moments, not used at other places in the game.

LOL, no it's not. It used all the time when Reapers are walking around.

The sound played is likely directly related to Shepard looking away and/or the boy disappearing.
Like I said though, it probably has nothing to do whatsoever with Shepard being indoctrinated.

It's just something there to signify "Gasp! The boy is gone". Like a loud sound played during a jump scare in a horror movie.

[Vromrig]

Holiday wrote...

 Do you remember the Prothean VI on Thessia that Kai Leng took to the Cerberus station? If you do, then you'd also remember that it was able to discern between people who were indoctrinated and people who weren't. It stated that both the Illusive Man and Kai Leng were indeed indoctrinated, while at the same time, stated that Shepard wasn't indoctrinated. There you go. Indoctrination theory disproven.

Reaching for straws in attempt to refute Indoctrination Theory.  Indoctrination Theory does not presuppose Reaper control at any point in game prior to battle with Harbinger.

Your post fails test of logic.  Data continues to support Indoctrination THeory.  Reapers try, fail, up until ending.  Then, as Shepard is on death bed, they go through final step of attempted indoctrination.

Theory not dependant upon successful indoctrination, only on concept of mental battle.

Theory still valid.  Theory still only valid explanation.

Pretention unnecessary.

[terdferguson123]

Mcjon01 wrote...

terdferguson123 wrote...


I don't know, I think people can resist Indoctrination. In the novels it explicitly talks about how when someone resists you can hear a Reaper growl. I understand what your saying about the cup analogy, but I think their is sufficient evidence that exists for the other side, that they will try until it works.If you listen closely throughout ME3 you can hear said growl several times througout the game.

How do you know it's the same growl?  It was mentioned in a book, nobody ever heard it.  And people like to point out the growling sound you hear when the boy disappears in the vent, while ignoring the fact that there's an actual Reaper right outside the building, stomping around doing Reaper things and making Reaper noises.

You hear the same growl several times when during the Illusive man meeting as well. Listen closely.

[ULS 980]

Bazedragon wrote...

ULS 980 wrote...
1: I'm just saying indoctrination is a continuous and drawn-out process that is ALWAYS successful in the end (at least until Shepard showed up, according to the theory).
Not one where the Reapers keep trying until it works. Like I said, think more like a glass being filled with drops from a faucet as opposed to trying to fling cards into a hat.

Not an easy point to argue, considering the lack of evidence to contradict your point... but also the lack of evidence really to back it up.
No matter when they started trying to indoctrinate Shepard (Beam hit, Arrival, hell even Virmire is a possibility) - considering he is remarkably strong-willed - it's possible he was able to resist their hold long enough to find a way to destroy them (the catalyst, if you take that ending as real); or is continuing to fight them and narrowly manages to push them out (assuming you get the "shepard alive" clip) if you go by indoctrination theory.

I'm pretty sure the games even describe indoctrination as a subtle, long-term process over days or weeks.

From the wiki: "Rana Thanoptis, an asari neuroscientist on Virmire,
goes into more detail. She describes indoctrination as a subtle whisper
you can't ignore, that compels you to do things without knowing why.
Over days, perhaps a week of exposure to Sovereign's signal, the subject
stops thinking for themselves and just obeys, eventually becoming a
mindless servant."

There's no way Shepard started to get indoctrinated at the very end of ME3 (assuming the theory is correct). That's just not how indoctrination works.


I'm not arguing, however, that someone can resist it (at least temporarily). That's confirmed.

[ediskrad327]

yeah but the ending is more stupid so the less stupid theory outweighs the ending

[CavScout]

ediskrad327 wrote...

yeah but the ending is more stupid so the less stupid theory outweighs the ending

It's still the same ending even with indoctrination....

[Vromrig]

It's still the same ending even with indoctrination....

Incorrect. Indoctrination Theory states that story does not conclude upon Shepard decision. Instead, continues, awaiting resolution.

Therefore, not same ending. Further, story does not conclude. Renegade option continues story, but leaves on cliffhanger. Does not constitute resolution.

[Bazedragon]

ULS 980 wrote...
I'm pretty sure the games even describe indoctrination as a subtle, long-term process over days or weeks.

From the wiki: "Rana Thanoptis, an asari neuroscientist on Virmire,
goes into more detail. She describes indoctrination as a subtle whisper
you can't ignore, that compels you to do things without knowing why.
Over days, perhaps a week of exposure to Sovereign's signal, the subject
stops thinking for themselves and just obeys, eventually becoming a
mindless servant."

There's no way Shepard started to get indoctrinated at the very end of ME3 (assuming the theory is correct). That's just not how indoctrination works.


I'm not arguing, however, that someone can resist it (at least temporarily). That's confirmed.

To be honest, considering it's still a largely unknown process, what is really happening is people clutching at straws just as much trying to pinpoint when the process begins as when it begins to really take hold.
Personally I like to think that those "dream sequences" are a mixture of Shepard having nightmares over those he left behind (Kaidan, the "child", Mordin, Legion - in my Sheps' case) mixed with attempts by the reapers to catch him in a weakened state (he probably spent at least 24 hours on the go at a time, often). In the first one (admittedly, probably reading too much in to this) it does sound like the first foghorn you hear is kindof the reaper equivalent if you tried to say "commander shepard" with your mouth wide open and not moving it (try it, I dare you!). But I have probably gone TOTALLY off my point.

[Forgomoth]

Yeah, I've been on every side of the discussion at this point.  When I thought the ending was just fine, it was because I was content with the 120 hours of awesomeness that preceded, and after KotOR 2's ending I've really stopped caring about the ending.  The way I saw it, the entire 3rd game was "the ending" and all previous and current decisions affected the course of the journey.  I thought the last ten minutes was really the ONLY way it could end.  Either you destroy them or control them.  I did not learn about the synthesis option until I beat my second playthrough, and at the time (2:00am) I thought, "Yeah, that sounds like the best option, that must be the best way to end this."

However, after two weeks of denying the many plot holes and shortcuts, I finally gave into the mainstream view and read the reasons why people thought it was a weak ending, and I agreed.  I still don't understand why some people write off the entire game because of the ending (or even sue BioWare in some cases), but I came to realise that the ending was indeed weak... or was it?  Literally 5 minutes after coming to terms that the ending was lackluster, I found and read all about the indoctrination theory.

And I think...  I was indoctrinated.  My reasons for agreeing with the ending were akin to Saren's.  He thought that submission was the only course of action, just as I thought that ME3 could only end the way it did, and I believe that people who hate the ending are in the process of being indoctrinated.  BioWare themselves said that they wanted the ending to be polarizing, either you love or hate it.  That's not much different than indoctrination.  An indoctrinated person is made to think that the given paths are the only ones available, and if you recall, the Catalyst tries to convince you that, of the given paths, one is better than the other, and the one that you originally set out on (destroy the reapers) was, in fact, the worst option.

Some of the plot holes, and lack of context just seem too...  deliberate.  I may be raising false hopes, but I'm quite convinced that the reason why the current ending is in place, is that BioWare isn't actually done making the true ending.  Making an end to the game that accounts for all the decisions you've made is a serious undertaking.  The more I think about it, the harder it sounds to pull off correctly.  Thus, they put in a trick ending, to prepare for the real one.

Or maybe they just failed, and I'm spouting loyalist propaganda (because I'm indoctrinated).

Modifié par Forgomoth, 20 mars 2012 - 05:44 .

[Vromrig]

To be honest, considering it's still a largely unknown process, what is really happening is people clutching at straws just as much trying to pinpoint when the process begins as when it begins to really take hold.
Personally I like to think that those "dream sequences" are a mixture of Shepard having nightmares over those he left behind (Kaidan, the "child", Mordin, Legion - in my Sheps' case) mixed with attempts by the reapers to catch him in a weakened state (he probably spent at least 24 hours on the go at a time, often). In the first one (admittedly, probably reading too much in to this) it does sound like the first foghorn you hear is kindof the reaper equivalent if you tried to say "commander shepard" with your mouth wide open and not moving it (try it, I dare you!). But I have probably gone TOTALLY off my point.

Too zero sum. No need to believe all or nothing. Indoctrination meticulous process. Safe to assume not indoctrinated at beginning of game, but on road to be.

Weakened resolve due to near death experience. Expands mind. Fills with hope. Open to new ideas. Maybe Illusive Man was right? Can control them. Save Earth. And Geth.

But attempts prior still leave impact.

When whipping, skin begins to crack before breaking. Subject will still show signs of degradation before broken skin affect is achieved. Same concept, but mental level.

Morbid analogy, but apt.

[raizathestorm]

Yeah, I caught that, too. He DID, however, say that his security protocols were overwritten. That could be taken and ran with.

[Sunnyhat1]

Forgomoth wrote...

Yeah, I've been on every side of the discussion at this point.  When I thought the ending was just fine, it was because I was content with the 120 hours of awesomeness that preceded, and after KotOR 2's ending I've really stopped caring about the ending.

To be fair here kotor 2 wasnt made by BW. They gave that to Obsidian. Same people that made NWN 2. Obsidian screwed up pretty much every franchise they got their hands on. :S

Modifié par Sunnyhat1, 20 mars 2012 - 05:47 .

[Bazedragon]

Vromrig wrote...

Too zero sum. No need to believe all or nothing. Indoctrination meticulous process. Safe to assume not indoctrinated at beginning of game, but on road to be.

Weakened resolve due to near death experience. Expands mind. Fills with hope. Open to new ideas. Maybe Illusive Man was right? Can control them. Save Earth. And Geth.

But attempts prior still leave impact.

When whipping, skin begins to crack before breaking. Subject will still show signs of degradation before broken skin affect is achieved. Same concept, but mental level.

Morbid analogy, but apt.

I... Yes.. what... Are you a reaper in disguise? Because I think I'm indoctrinated by that post.

[ULS 980]

Vromrig wrote...

To be honest, considering it's still a largely unknown process, what is really happening is people clutching at straws just as much trying to pinpoint when the process begins as when it begins to really take hold.
Personally I like to think that those "dream sequences" are a mixture of Shepard having nightmares over those he left behind (Kaidan, the "child", Mordin, Legion - in my Sheps' case) mixed with attempts by the reapers to catch him in a weakened state (he probably spent at least 24 hours on the go at a time, often). In the first one (admittedly, probably reading too much in to this) it does sound like the first foghorn you hear is kindof the reaper equivalent if you tried to say "commander shepard" with your mouth wide open and not moving it (try it, I dare you!). But I have probably gone TOTALLY off my point.

Too zero sum. No need to believe all or nothing. Indoctrination meticulous process. Safe to assume not indoctrinated at beginning of game, but on road to be.

Weakened resolve due to near death experience. Expands mind. Fills with hope. Open to new ideas. Maybe Illusive Man was right? Can control them. Save Earth. And Geth.

But attempts prior still leave impact.

When whipping, skin begins to crack before breaking. Subject will still show signs of degradation before broken skin affect is achieved. Same concept, but mental level.

Morbid analogy, but apt.

This makes the theory ten times cooler sounding when you describe it in Mordin's voice.

Modifié par ULS 980, 20 mars 2012 - 05:48 .

[Liber320]

Holiday wrote...

 Do you remember the Prothean VI on Thessia that Kai Leng took to the Cerberus station? If you do, then you'd also remember that it was able to discern between people who were indoctrinated and people who weren't. It stated that both the Illusive Man and Kai Leng were indeed indoctrinated, while at the same time, stated that Shepard wasn't indoctrinated. There you go. Indoctrination theory disproven.

It's been stated (forget where, possibly by Javik) that Prothean VIs couldn't detect early stages of indoctrination. Your argument is false

[CavScout]

Vromrig wrote...

It's still the same ending even with indoctrination....

Incorrect. Indoctrination Theory states that story does not conclude upon Shepard decision. Instead, continues, awaiting resolution.

Therefore, not same ending. Further, story does not conclude. Renegade option continues story, but leaves on cliffhanger. Does not constitute resolution.

Even more evidence that the theory is silly... it can't be right until more game is made and released....

[CavScout]

raizathestorm wrote...

Yeah, I caught that, too. He DID, however, say that his security protocols were overwritten. That could be taken and ran with.

No, it just mean TIM was able to get the data they needed.

[Bazedragon]

CavScout wrote...

Vromrig wrote...

It's still the same ending even with indoctrination....

Incorrect. Indoctrination Theory states that story does not conclude upon Shepard decision. Instead, continues, awaiting resolution.

Therefore, not same ending. Further, story does not conclude. Renegade option continues story, but leaves on cliffhanger. Does not constitute resolution.

Even more evidence that the theory is silly... it can't be right until more game is made and released....

Which, in turn means, the current ending is incomplete untill more game isn't made and released.

Oh the paradoxes!

[CavScout]

Liber320 wrote...

Holiday wrote...

 Do you remember the Prothean VI on Thessia that Kai Leng took to the Cerberus station? If you do, then you'd also remember that it was able to discern between people who were indoctrinated and people who weren't. It stated that both the Illusive Man and Kai Leng were indeed indoctrinated, while at the same time, stated that Shepard wasn't indoctrinated. There you go. Indoctrination theory disproven.

It's been stated (forget where, possibly by Javik) that Prothean VIs couldn't detect early stages of indoctrination. Your argument is false

So, you have evidence just don't know where it is.... that's awfuly nice.

[ULS 980]

CavScout wrote...

Vromrig wrote...

It's still the same ending even with indoctrination....

Incorrect. Indoctrination Theory states that story does not conclude upon Shepard decision. Instead, continues, awaiting resolution.

Therefore, not same ending. Further, story does not conclude. Renegade option continues story, but leaves on cliffhanger. Does not constitute resolution.

Even more evidence that the theory is silly... it can't be right until more game is made and released....

Or it could and that's honestly how Bioware intended it to end (and didn't plan on any DLC).
Hence the "Lot's of speculation for everyone".

I mean, you've already resigned to believing Bioware just screwed up this ending beyond belief (which, I'll admit, is perfectly valid), right ?
Is it that much of a stretch to believe they didn't ship it with a "real" ending and just left the ending to be assumed?

Again, not saying the theory is true, just that it does have it's merits.
I mean, I like the theory personally, but I'm not gonna sit here and blindly subscribe to it.
Perfectly fine with trying to poke holes in it and otherwise be skeptical about it. :U

Modifié par ULS 980, 20 mars 2012 - 05:56 .

[Vromrig]

Even more evidence that the theory is silly... it can't be right until more game is made and released....

Incorrect, using words incorrectly. Final scenes of game do not conclude story. Also do not depict logical sequence of events outside of Indoctrination Theory. Therefore, conclusion that what you see is real is illogical, as scenes do not add up.

Like calling chair a bird. All facts point to the chair being a chair. But the manufacturer insists it is a bird. Threw chair, failed to fly. Data concludes it cannot be bird.

Same concept with ending. Cannot be anything but Indoctrination Theory, does not add up logically.

Unless...sabotage?

[Reiisha]

Holiday wrote...

 Do you remember the Prothean VI on Thessia that Kai Leng took to the Cerberus station? If you do, then you'd also remember that it was able to discern between people who were indoctrinated and people who weren't. It stated that both the Illusive Man and Kai Leng were indeed indoctrinated, while at the same time, stated that Shepard wasn't indoctrinated. There you go. Indoctrination theory disproven.

They weren't indoctrinated at the time.

How is that difficult to understand? ;p

[ULS 980]

Reiisha wrote...

Holiday wrote...

 Do you remember the Prothean VI on Thessia that Kai Leng took to the Cerberus station? If you do, then you'd also remember that it was able to discern between people who were indoctrinated and people who weren't. It stated that both the Illusive Man and Kai Leng were indeed indoctrinated, while at the same time, stated that Shepard wasn't indoctrinated. There you go. Indoctrination theory disproven.

They weren't indoctrinated at the time.

How is that difficult to understand? ;p

Or at least indoctrinated to any degree that the VI would be able to recognize.