80 réponses à ce sujet

[Maria Caliban]

Eyeofanger wrote...

...make da3 story the greatest story ever written...

No pressure, guys.

[namedforthemoon]

David Gaider wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

"Yes, it's a big issue... because "garbage in, garbage out", right? It doesn't help if we write things that take advantage of imported data if that data isn't properly there to be imported. We've got some ideas on the table, but I don't think we can comment on any of it right now. Know that this is a big issue, however, especially insofar as the writers are concerned." -- David Gaider

"I can't talk methods, but I can talk goals: We would like you to be able to import choices in a way that is error-proof. Which is to say, not ignoring the DA world you've helped shape." -- Mike Laidlaw

These statements deserve repeating, apparently.

The question is how we will do the import, not whether we will. The problem is that our "beginning point" has bugs that date back to DAO... and even though some of those were fixed in the original game, many people have saves that date from before those fixes. So if you don't have a clean starting point, what you import won't affect how we use it (which was the case with many peoples' Zevran encounter in DA2).

So we'll figure it out. No flailing required.

I think the best way is not to import a save game file, which could be buggy, but to have the option to input your choices through a menu at the beginning, and the game plays out based on what you chose.

For example:

1. Who did you choose to rule Ferelden?

a. Anora
b. Alistair

2. Who did Hawke side with?

a. Templars
b. Mages

etc.

I think this would be best, because in some cases (like me) Your computer dies and you lose your original save game files and you don't have time to play through the game and do everything over again. This way you can just input what you did. Also, it makes it easier if you decide you want to change things up, like have Anora on the throne instead of Alistair, or to do the Dark Ritual with Morrigan when originally you didn't.

[SuperiorOlive]

I feel like there is an obvious answer to the import problem, and I know its been suggested before. Have us import our files, and then let us edit a checklist to make sure everything is the way we want it. Or skip the import altogether and go straight to the checklist. Having the import file itself would be useful though in case they want Hawke or the Warden to make a cameo, and get the appearance right. And, of course, for those who don't care or are playing DAIII as their first game in the series, this would all be optional.

Don't want us to know which past decisions will have an impact on the story going forward? Of course not! Put in a bunch of dummy flags with no bearing at all.

If there's a better option, I'd love to hear it, but this is the only way I can think of to make sure DAIII gets it right where DAII failed.

Modifié par SuperiorOlive, 22 mars 2012 - 09:40 .

[RedSonia]

HiroVoid wrote...

It's more important to you'll about a line about the previous game than what's actually in the game in its entirety?

In a game which is supposed to be a continuation of the previous ones, yes. If you're going to ignore the more than 60 hours I spent with DA:O, just make a completely different game and give it another name and setting, and I'll like it better.

One of the reasons I wasn't able to finish DA2 was the fact that Bioware didn't bother to fix the import bugs from DA:O. If all the things my Warden did were worthless, I would have prefered them to ignore them and not making references.

David Gaider wrote...

(...) The problem is that our
"beginning point" has bugs that date back to DAO... and even though some
of those were fixed in the original game, many people have saves that
date from before those fixes. So if you don't have a clean starting
point, what you import won't affect how we use it (which was the case
with many peoples' Zevran encounter in DA2).

Those problems have been fixed? Where and how? I have been watching and updating every single time (my DAO playthrough had all the DAO patches) and actually in the last DA2 patches the Zevran romance bugs have not even been addressed.

The manual check import sounds ok to me. And whatever is not addressed in those checks shouldn't been even mentioned in the game. For me, it is all about continuity. If I don't have a sense of continuity, I don't think a sequel deserves being called so.

[Marko GW]

David Gaider wrote...

These statements deserve repeating, apparently.

The question is how we will do the import, not whether we will. The problem is that our "beginning point" has bugs that date back to DAO... and even though some of those were fixed in the original game, many people have saves that date from before those fixes. So if you don't have a clean starting point, what you import won't affect how we use it (which was the case with many peoples' Zevran encounter in DA2).

So we'll figure it out. No flailing required.

First of all, thanks for taking time to post on my thread.

I am glad to hear that the import thing will not be taken out, since as somebody else mentioned we put in a lot of gameplay hours in Origins and DA2 and we want them to have some impact.

There are good suggestions here about how it should be taken care of the import. The one I like the best is to have the option to import the save file and have a check list where we can see what has been imported, and if there are some mistakes to be easy to fix them. That said, I know that your programers know much more about this and how it should be taken care of than us here, but suggestions won't hurt.

Closure I think is the main thing i.e. the things we import have a meaning and be resolved, not just cameos or mentioning of some characters and situation just for the sake of it.

I honestly believe that you can and will make DA3 the best balance of Origins and DA2, the later one although being a dissappointment to many does have some good inovations, not many but a couple of solid ones.

My trust in you is solely based and it still caries over from DA: O being the best game I have ever played.

[Urzon]

I wouldn't mind doing a checklist if that can easily avoid the game being buggy. I just want my choices to matter. I don't care how they are imported into DA3. Not to mention, i'm sure it would save the developers alot of time if they can bypass all the import bugs.

They can just ask a question when you hit "New Game" button; if you played DAO/DAA, DA2, and any and all DLCs or not, and if so; would you like to input your choices (or choices you would have made on the DLCs). The whole questionaire that would take a whole 5-10mins maybe. Which is alot less time it takes to customize your hero. In my case anyway.

Heck, you can classy up the checklist by making it into a short story. The player can just fill in the blanks with his or her choices as the story progresses.

Modifié par Urzon, 22 mars 2012 - 12:18 .

[Eski.Moe]

I really can't sympathise with the importance that people choose to place on Importing. I understand it in Mass Effect as that was marketed as a trilogy in which your choices shaped the world (however superficial it is is of no consequence). Dragon Age is a series in which we've been told time and time again that it's more about the world than the characters. It isn't about the Warden, it isn't about Hawke, it's about Thedas and the issues within.

I don't know, I feel as if this places a handicap on the game and that we can receive a stronger product if (about to use the 'c' word, brace yourselves!) they decided on canon and moved forward with the world as such. Have multiple decisions and different ways that the end-state can be within the game but decide on a set path when embarking on a sequel.

The amount of decisions that you can make was a lot in Origins and yeah there was a couple as well in DA2 and as the series progresses, it all just becomes more convoluted trying to keep track of everything. In this kind of scenario, they can place a bigger focus on the Dark Ritual whereas they can't really do it if relying on Imports (different decisions and so on). There just isn't enough of a point. That's just the way I see it, personally.

Though, I have to admit, the user above does have a point if we're gonna be sticking with the Importing model. In order to avoid bugs or just the inconvenience of having to go through the games again, a questionnaire or checklist would be awesome in order to quickly make decisions and see how the world is.

Modifié par Eski.Moe, 22 mars 2012 - 12:42 .

[Marko GW]

Well if they decide to use a canon story, what is the point of making all those decisions?

I mean if it's about the world and not the characters what is the point in playing if every world-shaping decision your character makes get scrapped.

But enough on canons, Gaider said they are not taking out the import option and that is solid assurance on the subject. Now I just want to know which decisions will make an impact on future story.

[Dutchess]

Eski.Moe wrote...

I really can't sympathise with the importance that people choose to place on Importing. I understand it in Mass Effect as that was marketed as a trilogy in which your choices shaped the world (however superficial it is is of no consequence). Dragon Age is a series in which we've been told time and time again that it's more about the world than the characters. It isn't about the Warden, it isn't about Hawke, it's about Thedas and the issues within.

I don't know, I feel as if this places a handicap on the game and that we can receive a stronger product if (about to use the 'c' word, brace yourselves!) they decided on canon and moved forward with the world as such. Have multiple decisions and different ways that the end-state can be within the game but decide on a set path when embarking on a sequel.

The amount of decisions that you can make was a lot in Origins and yeah there was a couple as well in DA2 and as the series progresses, it all just becomes more convoluted trying to keep track of everything. In this kind of scenario, they can place a bigger focus on the Dark Ritual whereas they can't really do it if relying on Imports (different decisions and so on). There just isn't enough of a point. That's just the way I see it, personally.

Though, I have to admit, the user above does have a point if we're gonna be sticking with the Importing model. In order to avoid bugs or just the inconvenience of having to go through the games again, a questionnaire or checklist would be awesome in order to quickly make decisions and see how the world is.

I think this is largely something the developers have brought upon themselves, because they were the ones to make promises regarding our choices in previous games. Had they never put such emphasis on the subject themselves, I think it would be less of an issue when they decide to remove the impact of previous decisions. But now they have assured many times the player's decisions will matter, so it comes across as a let-down and weak when they are suddenly saying it is oh so very difficult to pull it off. There's no way they could not know this beforehand, so in my opinion this is more their own fault. Personally I would not have thought it such an issue had they not made all these promises.

Alas, I am glad to see David Gaider addressed this and says they are still willing to let the choices be carried on. 

Modifié par renjility, 22 mars 2012 - 01:30 .

[Adynata]

esper wrote...


It is among the things that would make me quit the game:

3. If the non-games media become so important that you have to have them to understand the lore in the game.

I have to agree on all your list items, but especially this one. It was really annoying in ME3 to not know what the relevance of this person or that place is to the lore because I don't have the desire to read their comic books or fantasy novels (I read for a living and it has taken all joy out of reading for pleasure).

[SuperiorOlive]

Adynata wrote...

esper wrote...


It is among the things that would make me quit the game:

3. If the non-games media become so important that you have to have them to understand the lore in the game.

I have to agree on all your list items, but especially this one. It was really annoying in ME3 to not know what the relevance of this person or that place is to the lore because I don't have the desire to read their comic books or fantasy novels (I read for a living and it has taken all joy out of reading for pleasure).

I understand where you both are coming from, and that some people simply don't enjoy reading books/comics or whatever other media they venture into. That's fine, and for that reason I think they should keep major events out of such media unless they intend to fully explain relevant events in-game, through dialogue or codex entries.

However, as someone who greatly enjoys reading, I love the depth that something like a novel adds to the games. Sure, the novels aren't the pinnacle of achievement in the fantasy genre, but they are fairly entertaining light reading and they make the world of Thedas and its people more real to me. And that additional knowledge helps me enjoy the games more and fit them into the context of the world.

I don't think players should be forced to read this stuff to understand the game, but I also don't see how it would hurt anyone to include a character from Asunder in a cameo or as a companion in the next game, for example. The game has to explain who your companions are and where they came from no matter what, so it doesn't make much difference if some people get the added satisfaction of having met one of them before. Of course, the game can't act as if we already know this person since most players won't have a clue who they are beforehand. I don't know what you're referring to in ME, but maybe that was the type of problem?

Modifié par SuperiorOlive, 22 mars 2012 - 09:15 .

[slashthedragon]

I think the problem of importing what you did in 2 to 3 is more of an issue in terms of places than characters. What I mean is, 3 could conceivably go without mentioning any characters from 2, if you never go near the areas where 2 was set. But if Kirkwall or Starkhaven is discussed/travelled to, you need to include the data as to whether your Hawke is a Viscount or not in Kirkwall, and whether or not Sebastian has gone back to Starkhaven.

I absolutely don't want 3 to bring back characters from 2 in ways that:
a) ignores what Hawke did with them in 2
kills off Hawke/companions or mentions their deaths in 3
c) mysteriously resurrects characters from 2 that the player killed, ie no 'lol I survived your stabbing me in the back because I'm special'

So I'm kind of torn about any future mentions of characters from 2 just because they could f*ck them up so badly and/or completely negate what I played in 2. On the other hand, I'm really going to miss the characters, and a satisfying epilogue to their stories, from 2. The expansion pack REALLY would have been the best way to go

ETA: and no including characters from 2 in novels/comics that are set after the end of 2.

Modifié par slashthedragon, 23 mars 2012 - 05:12 .

[jb1983]

David Gaider wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

"Yes, it's a big issue... because "garbage in, garbage out", right? It doesn't help if we write things that take advantage of imported data if that data isn't properly there to be imported. We've got some ideas on the table, but I don't think we can comment on any of it right now. Know that this is a big issue, however, especially insofar as the writers are concerned." -- David Gaider

"I can't talk methods, but I can talk goals: We would like you to be able to import choices in a way that is error-proof. Which is to say, not ignoring the DA world you've helped shape." -- Mike Laidlaw

These statements deserve repeating, apparently.

The question is how we will do the import, not whether we will. The problem is that our "beginning point" has bugs that date back to DAO... and even though some of those were fixed in the original game, many people have saves that date from before those fixes. So if you don't have a clean starting point, what you import won't affect how we use it (which was the case with many peoples' Zevran encounter in DA2).

So we'll figure it out. No flailing required.

Before I say anything (since this is going to be a pretty harsh critique), I do have to say that (1) I'm extremely impressed that the main players in the DA series are on here taking feedback and interacting with the fans. That says a lot. And (2) DA:O was probably one of the best RPG games I've ever played. 

That being said, I think starting with a clean slate might be best. I honestly think that DA2 messed up the series so much that in order to save the series, you almost have to begin anew (part of this was because Origins had so many different outcomes that any sequel was bound to collapse at some point). 

But if I'm fully honest, I think the biggest problem you're running into is that you're going with multiple characters over a short period of time. The reason this is a problem is that so many factors are introduced into the world that it's nearly impossible to make a player's choice matter. In other words, and I could be wrong and missing something here, but the only ways I can see the DA series working is:

1) Forget choices, take that out completely, and have the player follow a singular path (or allow choices, but the choices only impact how people treat you). This would take away a major appeal of the game, but would allow easier programming in the future

2) Stick to one character in one context, with few additions of companions. This, to me, makes the most sense. If nothing else, you could use DA3 to go back and revisit the Warden, allowing you to make an easier import from DA:O and even DA2. Introducing a new character would be nice, but once DA4 comes along, you're faced having to import decisions from three different people - a nearly impossible task. 

3) Continue Hawke's story, but I'm not sure how viable that is...

4) Keep allowing for new players, but spread it out over centuries rather than a few months. At that point, it becomes easy to explain why everything has tended towards where it is. You sided with the mages, so you begin DA3 100 years later where Mages are free. You sided with the Templars, so you begin DA3 100 years later when Mages are enslaved. This would change dynamics in the story of DA3, but wouldn't change the game itself, merely how characters respond. 

5) (What I think is the best solution for ALL your games, not just DA) Plan ahead on where you want to go with a game. Rather than making it up as you go along, write out, "Hey, we want to have x number of games that tell this story. This is where we want the story to end up and conclude, so how do we get there?" This gives you a Point A, Point B, Point C, and Point D throughout the trilogy, or however many games you add. Then you can add in choices that allow for a unique story to be told for the player, but with everything being guided to these ultimate conclusions. This makes importing much easier because the player will end the first game at Point B no matter what (Point B will simply look slightly different for each person, but won't be massively different). Plus, it gives you a sense of direction on where you're going with the next game. Once you conclude the trilogy, if it's a blockbuster and EA is begging you to keep it going, you can sit down and storyboard another three games that have new characters, but set within the same universe. The whole point is you should really start storyboarding these games, but also be flexible enough to change them should your fanbase reject the story (though that rarely happens with Bioware...just elements of stories get rejected). 

Essentially, and again my insight could be limited, but I just don't see the DA series making it. I think the idea of importing decisions becomes a near impossibility at some point because you're introducing new companions in every single instance.

Anyway, sorry for going off on a tangent. This post probably belongs somewhere else, but I saw the thing about "importing" and began nerd-ranting (not raging though, which is a good thing). I hope what I said is helpful and not just purely stupid, as it's coming from a gamer and not someone who is involved in the business of making the games. 

[slashthedragon]

jb1983 wrote...

4) Keep allowing for new players, but spread it out over centuries rather than a few months. At that point, it becomes easy to explain why everything has tended towards where it is. You sided with the mages, so you begin DA3 100 years later where Mages are free. You sided with the Templars, so you begin DA3 100 years later when Mages are enslaved. This would change dynamics in the story of DA3, but wouldn't change the game itself, merely how characters respond. 

I thought about this, but even then you run into major problems, just deciding on who won the war (unless they say eventually the two sides reached a compromise).
It is problematic because you'd have to have a mages won and Templars won version of the game, which would include different people in power, differents in the societal structure, even differences in how NPCs treat you and your companions, depending on who is/isn't a mage/mage supporter/Templar supporter.
And with something like a 'Templars won' ending, you may not even be able to (logically) choose to play as a a mage.
Problems, problems...

[RedSonia]

Eski.Moe wrote...

I really can't sympathise with the importance that people choose to place on Importing. I understand it in Mass Effect as that was marketed as a trilogy in which your choices shaped the world (however superficial it is is of no consequence). Dragon Age is a series in which we've been told time and time again that it's more about the world than the characters. It isn't about the Warden, it isn't about Hawke, it's about Thedas and the issues within.

I don't know, I feel as if this places a handicap on the game and that we can receive a stronger product if (about to use the 'c' word, brace yourselves!) they decided on canon and moved forward with the world as such. Have multiple decisions and different ways that the end-state can be within the game but decide on a set path when embarking on a sequel.

The amount of decisions that you can make was a lot in Origins and yeah there was a couple as well in DA2 and as the series progresses, it all just becomes more convoluted trying to keep track of everything. In this kind of scenario, they can place a bigger focus on the Dark Ritual whereas they can't really do it if relying on Imports (different decisions and so on). There just isn't enough of a point. That's just the way I see it, personally.

Though, I have to admit, the user above does have a point if we're gonna be sticking with the Importing model. In order to avoid bugs or just the inconvenience of having to go through the games again, a questionnaire or checklist would be awesome in order to quickly make decisions and see how the world is.

Everybody has their opinions but honestly, as I said before, if  you have a sequel, things which happened in the first game matter a lot, or you should be doing a different game. I mean, I know in Mass Effect you have the same character and it is a more linear storyline, but as I said in another post, Mass Effect fans wouldn't understand, even if playing with a different character, that BOTH Ashley and Kaidan had a cameo in the second part. As it happens in DA2 with some characters who died in some players playthoughs. Of course it isn't about the Warden or Hawke, but what the things they did had consequences, and if they're mentioned, they should be accurate.

And if you don't want them to matter, then don't bring them back. I understand Dragon Age is more settled on a world than about characters but for me, it would have made much more sense that DA2 didn't have cameos of characters of DAO or Awakening (and much less to have them as main characters as with Anders) than they appearing and not aknowledging the events in your previous game. It just defies all logic. If that was the original idea, just don't mention anything, or just vage references as "The warden was an elf and sacrificed him/herself", instead of making us meet his/her lover or that character she/he killed or saw die and make the player think "WTF????". As I said, for that it is better to make a completely different game.

Or as it has been suggested, bring the story ahead in the future. All the people we meet is already dead (wich few exceptions maybe like Flemeth) and their deeds are legend, so any inconsistences may be understood, and there will be not so many import troubles.

[Kidd]

Import checklist, no import at all, I care not. If a canon is set, it'll make it so much easier to continue writing in this series (I can just imagine the import spreadsheet of a potential future Dragon Age 8.... "In Dragon Age 5, the Anders Lord could flip over a rock if they wanted to. Is this rock flipped Yes/No?"). If it's not... well then I have my past choices to look forward to any way =)

Either way I feel is perfectly fine and there's pros and cons either way. I'll be happy.

[Adanu]

Marko GW wrote...

You remember Origins, Bioware??? The RPG of the year, the game that everybody loves... why did you mess with stuff like that???

Speak for yourself. I had a lot of issues with Origins that DA2 improved on, including the screwed combat.

[BlankPage]

David Gaider wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

"Yes, it's a big issue... because "garbage in, garbage out", right? It doesn't help if we write things that take advantage of imported data if that data isn't properly there to be imported. We've got some ideas on the table, but I don't think we can comment on any of it right now. Know that this is a big issue, however, especially insofar as the writers are concerned." -- David Gaider

"I can't talk methods, but I can talk goals: We would like you to be able to import choices in a way that is error-proof. Which is to say, not ignoring the DA world you've helped shape." -- Mike Laidlaw

These statements deserve repeating, apparently.

The question is how we will do the import, not whether we will. The problem is that our "beginning point" has bugs that date back to DAO... and even though some of those were fixed in the original game, many people have saves that date from before those fixes. So if you don't have a clean starting point, what you import won't affect how we use it (which was the case with many peoples' Zevran encounter in DA2).

So we'll figure it out. No flailing required.

Yes.. Swooping-- Flailing is bad.. 

[slashthedragon]

KiddDaBeauty wrote...

Import checklist, no import at all, I care not. If a canon is set, it'll make it so much easier to continue writing in this series (I can just imagine the import spreadsheet of a potential future Dragon Age 8.... "In Dragon Age 5, the Anders Lord could flip over a rock if they wanted to. Is this rock flipped Yes/No?"). If it's not... well then I have my past choices to look forward to any way =)

Either way I feel is perfectly fine and there's pros and cons either way. I'll be happy.

Butterfly effect
That's why you can't realistically import data from one game to another too many times.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Perfect imports are impossible with the bugs from pre-patched games.

Just include a dev console in DA3's character creation/import that players can use to set flags from previous games, if they so desire. Lock them in once the game starts. It's not the best solution, but at this point the players are the only ones capable of ensuring their world settings are correct. Bioware need only give them the tools.

Modifié par Shadow of Light Dragon, 24 mars 2012 - 08:50 .

[Marko GW]

If you want canon then what is the point of making any decision in the DA world?

I mean, what is the point of putting Anora if they decide that Alistair should be king in future titles?

What is the point of rejecting the Dark Ritual with Morrigan if they decide that in DA4 you should play as the god child descendant from the Hero of Ferelden?

What is the point in playing as female (which I like to do for my second character) if the Grey Warden and Hawke are perceived as male in DA3 and so on?

What was the point in killing Leliana and/or Anders?

What is the point in making decision what to do with Morrigan at the end of Witch Hunt if it never gets closure on the story or even mentioned again?

Why would you play hundreds of hours and thinking about decisions on Origins, Awakening, Amgarak and Witch Hunt if the Warden you shaped (personality and appearance) doesn't even matter anymore?

We were told that we will shape the face of Thedas, that said I don't expect every little decision to matter and have it's own impact on the future world, but some of them are too big just to retcon or put in a canon that states otherwise.

[Giltspur]

namedforthemoon wrote...

I think the best way is not to import a save game file, which could be buggy, but to have the option to input your choices through a menu at the beginning, and the game plays out based on what you chose.

For example:

1. Who did you choose to rule Ferelden?

a. Anora
b. Alistair

2. Who did Hawke side with?

a. Templars
b. Mages

etc.

I think this would be best, because in some cases (like me) Your computer dies and you lose your original save game files and you don't have time to play through the game and do everything over again. This way you can just input what you did. Also, it makes it easier if you decide you want to change things up, like have Anora on the throne instead of Alistair, or to do the Dark Ritual with Morrigan when originally you didn't.

Yeah, it seems that way to me too (though I don't have access to all of the ideas/problems Bioware does).  It seems at character creation they could have pre-made backgrounds like DA2 had, a custom background generator that takes you to a new screen and just lets you choose everything and an import that that takes what isn't known as a potential bug and lets you set everything else (that is at risk for being bugged) or perhaps review your import for errors and edit it (since player review doesn't require bug prediction). 

[Liveshiptrader]

If Hawke or the Warden is the protagonist then I'm all for the idea of importing or being given the option to make changes at the start but if it's a new character I would prefer they have a canon story because the choices I made for those other characters wouldn't feel important and be something the writers worry about over just writing a good story.