358 réponses à ce sujet

[Excl]

This also doesn't mention a lot of the other smaller points that seem to point towards the indoc-theory. Things like:

- Ashley asking about Udina being indoctrinated and asking, "How do you fight something that just worms your way into your head?" ... and you respond with, "I don't know ... but we don't have a choice".

- The "dream trees" appearing near the beam to the Citadel only AFTER you get hit with the laser.

- Things like the crucible beam looking like the Citadel elevator beam, and Mako wheels showing up in the Crucible area. And other things that look similar to the ground in London where Shep is supposed to be in this dream state.

You can maybe attribute a few of these things to lazy programming, but a lot of them does seem to point to indoc-theory being true ... and at the very least an intended plot that got pulled at the last minute. Even if it's the latter ... that's something that con be renewed if enough people complain about the current ending.

[Blarghonk]

Mitra wrote...

thegame30 wrote...

Blarghonk wrote...

Also, dunno if it was mentioned or I just haven't seen it mentioned but the save point after you finish the final mission goes back to before the mission, the game play time goes back and you're back at the lvl you were before doing the mission.

yeah my last save is missing almost 2hrs.

Hell yes, I agree! And people, do you remember the color of your screen when TIM arrives? Those strange shades from aside, like bleeding screen or something? And it wents out after you finish TIM (or he commits suicide like in my run).
Hehehe, I'm angry and sad in the same moment, but I believe that we indeed just have to wait a little more (AHHH I HATE THAT!)

Glad to know I wasn't the only one.

Been talking to my friends about the indoc theory since before ME3 (not trying to say we thought of it first) but everything just seems to go along with it. I was kinda peeved that it seems Shep isn't really himself through most of the game. Most of the dialog choices are already made, and my friend noted what if that was the effects of Indoc.

Certainly a better theory then space magic

Edit: Also saw a picture of the beam that takes you up to the citidel and a picture of when you're walking to the choices and they look exactly the same. The stuff that was on earth look like the stuff in the citidel. If I find that pic I'll post.

Modifié par Blarghonk, 20 mars 2012 - 03:53 .

[bytemarks]

0Sion0 wrote...

Good read, very well put and if true - if Bioware intended it this way.... then wow. Greatest mind****, greatest twist, best franchise ever.

Flipside: one would have thought they'd admit it by now and announce something - their image and financial concerns are growing with each passing day. At one point or another that should start to trouble them enough that they would have to speak up and explain a few things. Hasn't happened so far..

When a game is 40 hours long, only the most hardcore fans finish in the first few weeks, let alone days. Give them time. If this is in fact the ending, then they will announce it when they are sure most people have finished the game. You have to know that when/if they announce this to be true, it will ignite the internet like wildfire, spoiling the experience for many. 

INDOC is the first thing I thought of upon meeting the catalyst for the first time. It seems far too obvious on so many levels to not, at the very least, play a small roll in what transpired. Lets also not forget how often Ashley questions Shepards state of mind. Perhaps that's done to get the player in the correct thought process without spelling it out for them.

A tale this well written does not simply fall apart at the end. Did you see the list of credits at the end? If this ending was not perfect, do you not think somebody would notice? 

Modifié par bytemarks, 20 mars 2012 - 03:57 .

[Pinkflu]

I have to admit. If the indoctrination theory is right? I will be very goddamn impressed with Bioware. Just have to wait and see...

[xIREDEEMEDIx]

nice read. I often thought that Shepard was still knocked out from the beacon on Eden Prime. But I know that was a long shot. wow...think of the rage that would happen if that was true.

[jstme]

I am hoping for 1st of April release of real ending. It is hard to think how people who a) developed this game for years and understand what it means to fans and c) understood very well what mess this can create, could slip so badly at the very end.

[the meteor]

So the bad ending isn't a bad ending. It was all a dream? I'm not conviced but if this is right but if it is it's even worse than the current ending.

[Alexius]

bytemarks wrote...

0Sion0 wrote...

Good read, very well put and if true - if Bioware intended it this way.... then wow. Greatest mind****, greatest twist, best franchise ever.

Flipside: one would have thought they'd admit it by now and announce something - their image and financial concerns are growing with each passing day. At one point or another that should start to trouble them enough that they would have to speak up and explain a few things. Hasn't happened so far..

When a game is 40 hours long, only the most hardcore fans finish in the first few weeks, let alone days. Give them time. If this is in fact the ending, then they will announce it when they are sure most people have finished the game. You have to know that when/if they announce this to be true, it will ignite the internet like wildfire, spoiling the experience for many.

True. Not everybody can spend their entire afternoon in front of their computer or console. I'm a huge fan but it took me over a week to finish the game because of work and, well, life. A friend of mine is in the same situation and still hasn't finished it.

Still, I don't know why Bioware would do that so... My money is on the "what you got is the real ending" argument, no matter how convincing this theory sounds.

[Blarghonk]

Found it in this thread

http://social.biowar...5/index/9727423
or more specifically
http://img829.images...8/dreamreal.jpg

[TheMerchantMan]

Nimrodell wrote...

Why all the Reaper 'kill Shepard' fuss if s/he is indoctrinated? I'd rather take that end was poorly written with many oversights than having entire ME3 story marked as such. I mean, really, if Shepard is indoctrinated why Reapers go through all that trouble? Unless their devious uber plan was actually - let Shepard collect all organic military might and then when they're like fish in the barrel pew pew kill them all (even though they don't know if their unwilling indoctrinated agent Shepard will actually succeed)? And even when Shepard brings all organic military might in front of them, why not using then indoctrinated Shepard to feed Hammer forces false information or do even more damage? What's the point of entire Reapers trying to kill Shepard shenanigan if Shepard is indoctrinated? Story for the sake of story? Saren was in Sovereign himself, allowed him to put implants into him, TIM was using Reaper methods and Reaper tech, hell even Paul Greyson didn't last long against those Reaper nanites and Amanda Kenson was exposed for months to Reaper object... unless it was all devious plan from the very beginning, TIM put those implants into Shepard and actually the entire Cerberus team along with Miranda and Jacob were exposed to those implants meaning they are indoctrinated too... and those implants are so subtle that even Vendetta can't detect them as indoctrinating device - only reacts when Kai Leng approaches. And yes, if Liara didn't get indoctrinated while sleeping with Shepard and merging her mind - well, she sure got indoctrinated in that last farewell... wonder she didn't notice Reaper presence at all while doing 'embrace the eternity' thing. And it's funny, actually, 'cause even Shepard that takes that breath under rubble has 'Stargazer' ending, I guess, Reaper indoctrination works as movie - Reapers wanted our Shep to feel comfortable with becoming a legend, all along with seeing Normandy crash and crew mates going out.

Really, I do wish that BW takes this idea and include it 'cause of so many player here wishing it to be true... it might even happen, since people here keep pushing for it, but trust me, that wasn't BW's initial plan... It's bad and rushed writing and redoing things after that unfortunate leak. Shepard's dreams are what they are - PTSD and they change according decisions you made in ME1, ME2 and ME3... all those that died on your watch are heard in them, not telling Shepard that Reapers are good guys and that they are simply misunderstood... Those voices of people that died are actually saying what they were saying in game itself. Unfortunately, the end was just rushed and bad writing, bad concept, nothing more, nothing less. But, honestly, guys, I truly wish you get what you're looking for - ME3 endings done in accordance with indoctrination theory, but mind you, then entire game should be tweaked, 'cause again, we'll get inconsistencies and shallow plotline. After all, TIM did behave in accordance with person who is indoctrinated, but Shepard wasn't. James Vega may be wondering about hearing that hum in docking bay, but that hum may be from engines too.

There are a few reasons for this.

1. Shepard is not the
strategic or tactical commander of the operation. He's the spearhead.
The symbol, but he doesn't actually make the wider tactical decisions. It would be interesting if he did, but that's not how it played out.

2.
I'm going to go with the inception explanation. An idea can only be
properly be implanted in a person's mind if they think they came up with
it. False orders and misinformation, forcing Shepard to do anything at
all would immediately stick out in our minds and be out of character for
Shepard. The illusion of choice ultimately was necessary for Reaper
control.

3. Tali said it herself in ME2. The Normandy runs uncomfortably silently. There isn't supposed to be a natural engine hum.

4. Shepard does behave in accordance with a person who is being slowly indoctrinated. This is especially noticeable in the final scene. Ultimately, we view the starchild with a superstitious awe, listening to his every word, most importantly we cannot ultimately disagree. We can fight, we can choose destroy, but we can't ultimately disagree with his choices. 

5. It's important to note, that the idea that Shepard was indoctrinated in the entire game isn't actually what is being suggested. The Indoctrination theory is suggest that Reapers were attempting to indoctrinate him throughout the game. The dreams, the child, and all the other elements are not symptoms of already being indoctrinated, but the symptoms of the Reapers attempting indoctrination, it doesn't succeed until the final moments in the game.

Unfortunately, as much as I want this ending to be true, and I see so much evidence, it seems as though they were almost certainly not planning anything when they released it. That makes me very sad, because this theory works so well. Sadly it works better than they're own story.

[CarGryph]

So would a possible "We won't change the ending" actually mean "You don't have the actual ending and we won't ever change what we still have in our bags"?

Just sayin'...

Modifié par CarGryph, 20 mars 2012 - 04:01 .

[kyrieee]

Hmm, does the music really change depending on which one you pick?

[jkflipflopDAO]

I don't understand?

How is your finally being able to muster enough brainpower to figure out the ending somehow make it "OMFG Brilliant!!1!" - There's STILL NO ENDING

YOU PAID $60 FOR A GAME WITH NO ENDING.

[Shared]

Well for thoose of you conserned about publicity. If this indoctrination thing is whats really going on. All this bad publicity. Everyone that has covered this, and probably all the people that has been complaining or that has gone for this will in some way or form mention this. You get a horde of bad publicity replaced immedialty with a freaking wave of good publicity. And maybe just maybe they get heralded as the most ingenious game designers ever. Which has managed to make a game truly interactive. Not to mention it would then go down in history. I sure as ****ing hell would from that point on purchase EVERYTHING they released, and praised them to no end. Get all my friends to get their games etc.

Basically the point is, all the bad press would be instantly good press. Becausse everyone that has mentioned it will have to mention it again. But this time they have to also mention that Bioware did something NO one, not a single freaking medium for entertainment has managed to do before.

[R_Mckay]

The Real Bowser wrote...

Imagine that he has been indoctrinated since Arrival, in some extent. That the dreams and visions of the kid were part of this, and everything became full circle in the ending.

Bioware is acting very unprofessional, teasing us and misleading us. But if this is why, then... wow.

cant agree more, if the writers of Mass Effect could come up w/the brilliant "UNIVERSE" that is Mass Effect, then perhaps the ENDING that was presented wasnt meant for people who were playing the game from the very start (ME1, ME2 and up until the last few minutes ME3). - I can only hope..

maybe its for all the people who havent 'experienced" the mass effect universe (played ME1 or ME2 or could care less about previous games other than ME3) I recall correct me if I'm wrong, there was a pitch made before the game was released that "if u havent played mass effect before, then now (ME3) is the best time to play it"

maybe Bio needed an ENDING for ME3 as a stand alone game for "new" people who came in and just wanted to play a shooter or wanted to know what was all the fuss about the games, if u dont know the history, if u havent "invested" anything from the following games, u didnt bring a save game w/all those variables that were tracked in ME3... then that ending presented as choice A, B and C would be fine, all u knew was there was this plague and war is upon u and u needed ever ally u could find for a showdown over earth, w/out knowing much about the lore not reading the journal and just staying focused on the goal of getting allies then the 3 ENDINGS as it were in my mind works.

BUT if u did have a save game invested over from playing ME1 to ME2 then u KNOW something is MISSING...as for what that may be well,  IF indeed the indoctrination theory holds true then the final piece of the puzzle of ME3 is not only mind blowing, but flat out amazing...

now the question here is (INDOCTRINATION THEORY is true), how long can BIO afford to hold back in releasing that FINAL piece of the puzzle and still come out and be able to say... SHUCKS, we had it PLANNED that way from the very begining and come out like *kin' geniuses for doing it?

[Erethrian]

I hope Bioware's prepared something for us.

I believe in the Indoctrination Theory!

[ArkkAngel007]

Excl wrote...

This also doesn't mention a lot of the other smaller points that seem to point towards the indoc-theory. Things like:

- Ashley asking about Udina being indoctrinated and asking, "How do you fight something that just worms your way into your head?" ... and you respond with, "I don't know ... but we don't have a choice".

- The "dream trees" appearing near the beam to the Citadel only AFTER you get hit with the laser.

- Things like the crucible beam looking like the Citadel elevator beam, and Mako wheels showing up in the Crucible area. And other things that look similar to the ground in London where Shep is supposed to be in this dream state.

You can maybe attribute a few of these things to lazy programming, but a lot of them does seem to point to indoc-theory being true ... and at the very least an intended plot that got pulled at the last minute. Even if it's the latter ... that's something that con be renewed if enough people complain about the current ending.

Precisely.  Why drive your argument with subjective points that could go either way?  Not every line that mentions indoctrination is supportive evidence, and those "dream trees" were present in other areas nearby during the actual run, and are much smaller and look different than the ones in the dreams (only reason they are dream trees is due to the file name).  The last point is a lot of grasping at air to people on the outside, and to those inside it is still heavily debatable material.  

It's just better for everyone, especially when trying to share to others, that the IT focuses on the major concepts, instead of spending a lot of time on the fringe material that still lies in doubt.

[Smiley556]

jkflipflopDAO wrote...

I don't understand?

How is your finally being able to muster enough brainpower to figure out the ending somehow make it "OMFG Brilliant!!1!" - There's STILL NO ENDING

YOU PAID $60 FOR A GAME WITH NO ENDING.

To be honost I cant really comprehend that either. For me the indoctrination makes perfect sense and it is infact the way I experienced the game the first time. But that still leaves me with buying and playing a game without an ending and (so far) a couple agonising weeks of waiting for biowares response. I find it anything but brilliant, and if an ending is released I will say thank your for that, now never ever do a stunt like this ever again!

[MadRabbit999]

I said this before many times... but I will say it again...

If this theory is true... this is a giant middle finger from Bioware for successfully Trolling millions of people... weather or not it is true... it backfired quite badly.

A risky move.. which they probably shouldn't have risked... at this point even if it is an illusion, lots of angry fans will not come back, and sales will not magically peak only because of a DLC

[Alexius]

R_Mckay wrote...

The Real Bowser wrote...

Imagine that he has been indoctrinated since Arrival, in some extent. That the dreams and visions of the kid were part of this, and everything became full circle in the ending.

Bioware is acting very unprofessional, teasing us and misleading us. But if this is why, then... wow.

[...]

now the question here is (INDOCTRINATION THEORY is true), how long can BIO afford to hold back in releasing that FINAL piece of the puzzle and still come out and be able to say... SHUCKS, we had it PLANNED that way from the very begining and come out like *kin' geniuses for doing it?

Why would they do that to themselves? They could've guessed people would be pissed off.
They'd have to be very confident in their "true" ending.

Besides, why give fans the time to actually figure it out themselves?

Modifié par AlexiusDAlex, 20 mars 2012 - 04:08 .

[ArkkAngel007]

jkflipflopDAO wrote...

I don't understand?

How is your finally being able to muster enough brainpower to figure out the ending somehow make it "OMFG Brilliant!!1!" - There's STILL NO ENDING

YOU PAID $60 FOR A GAME WITH NO ENDING.

Which is why many of the core IT people are a part of ReTake.  We aren't justifying the "ending" (even literally it isn't much of an ending considering the Destroy cutscene), just trying to understand what was behind these design and literary choices in the endings to understand what BioWare was presenting us with.

So we are well aware of that fact and, whether or not IT is confirmed or not, many of us are in the fight.  This artificial boundary needs to end.

Modifié par ArkkAngel007, 20 mars 2012 - 04:10 .

[David Bergsma]

How does Hackett know that you’re on the Citadel? As far as everyone knows, you are dead, slain by Harbinger. [Quote]

Enough with this. Someone opened the arms of the citadel, that is the proof that Shepard's is somehow alive.

Modifié par David Bergsma, 20 mars 2012 - 04:12 .

[Neuthung]

This is the wrong kind of publicity for them. Yes, the IDT covers all of the plotholes in the ending, but we've already been told that this ending is what was intended. If they DID have an alternative available, they damn well would have told us more by now. They're losing a lot of money from fans returning games, canceling their TOR accounts, and overall having their fanbase hemorrhage players by the day. I want to believe this, I really do, but this far in the game from a business standpoint it is impossible to believe.

[Alexius]

Neuthung wrote...

This is the wrong kind of publicity for them. Yes, the IDT covers all of the plotholes in the ending, but we've already been told that this ending is what was intended. If they DID have an alternative available, they damn well would have told us more by now. They're losing a lot of money from fans returning games, canceling their TOR accounts, and overall having their fanbase hemorrhage players by the day. I want to believe this, I really do, but this far in the game from a business standpoint it is impossible to believe.

This. It's a terrible backlash.