463 réponses à ce sujet

[Jaze55]

Come on guys you have this all figured out. You showed me all the "proof" and all the "evidence" so what happens next?

I am really excited to know ahead of time what my new ending will be!

[TheMerchantMan]

Indoctrination isn't so far treated as an entirely inevitable process, at least it isn't fully explored. We can't take the word of the codex fully remember, in ME2 and 1 the Reapers were "just a myth".

As far as I've seen, choosing destroy is having the will-power to resist. It's understood that this is in fact possible.

[MB957]

maybe..shep is being influenced, but not fully indoc yet...and breaks free! then, finds another option on the crucible, refutes shiny boys nonsense, and fires off the "dark energy?" in the weapon. this weakens the reapers, giving the allied fleet a chance to finish them off! shep watches from the side, till normandy picks him/her up. gets back in the fight!

the fleet vs reapers is big boss fight end! shep cooridinates war assets, and kabooom! save the day!

now..shep lives or dies..by our choices...and we have epilogue or scene...ride off into sunset with LI...or not...becuz we have choices!!

it still leaves room open for dlc, ME4 or other ME story lines, past present and future!

and it would be fun!!

[Genera1Nemesis]

Addendum;

If I chose control or synthesis I think it only fair that I get to play as a Reaper and destroy the crap out everyone. Reapers win, happy ending, lol.

[maxpowers2525]

i could see it going in a similar way with u and anderson and maybe squadmates face TIM however when the citadel docks with crucible vigil pops up and says i see u are trying to destroy reapers may i be of assistance

[ExSturminator]

joshko wrote...

Bioware gets a second chance.

Hahaha, that was my first thought too reading the title.

As for the question, Saren and IM were indoctrinated too, but at a higher, more functional level so they could operate creatively and independently.  Since we've never seen the indoctrination process outside a few clips from the Reaper IFF mission in ME2, Bioware still has a lot of freedom here.  The effects may be permanent, but Shepard could just hear voices or have hallucinations; he's not necessarily a mindless drone or a complete tool.  Also remember he was reconstructed in Project Lazarus with potentially Reaper based tech (unless my lore is completely off), which could have a side-effect, like he's more resistant to indoctrination than others.

[crimzontearz]

1 that's the whole point about the theory...you fight indoctrination and win it by picking the destroy ending

2 Shiala is indoctrinated but the hive mind of Feros drawns it out

3 The rachni queen is also indoctrinated (or they tried to) but fought it off

[TheMerchantMan]

MassEffected555 wrote...

Come on guys you have this all figured out. You showed me all the "proof" and all the "evidence" so what happens next?

I am really excited to know ahead of time what my new ending will be!

Thing is we don't know. Probably the largest failing of the Indoc Theory is that it concludes that "something" is after the end. Yet we have absolutely no idea what that would be.

The real ending essentially. One that actually appears to conform to our choices, one that will make us happy. That's all I've got.

[ArkkAngel007]

Did you really have to make a new thread, despite it explained before?

What is happening, according to the theory, is an attempt at indoctrination. It's a matter of resistance, not immunity or recovery. For all we know, it does damage Shepard somehow if that event is taking place. We just don't know. However, again, Shepard is not indoctrinated until Shepard chooses Control or Synthesis. Destroy is the final act of resistance that breaks through the attempt as there are no longer any ways for Shepard's mind to supplant the information to keep the fantasy going.

We have only seen conscious individuals and those implanted with Reaper tech that the Reapers were aware of be turned and be indoctrinated. By the time we meet anyone in the game, even TIM, they are indoctrinated. The methodology on how they were, whether through physical or tactile means, is different amongst many of the cases.

Shepard's case is unique. He is physically compromised, as well as mentally, being in a state of shock and unconsciousness. With everything playing out in his mind, the keep of Shepard's mental fortress, things are much more malleable than in the real world on how the Reaper's can affect how Shepard perceives things. Shepard's resistance is to the point where the Reaper's actually have to trick Shepard to believe he is successful, with nudges here and there, in order to bypass Shepard's defense.

Again, we don't know how badly an attempt at indoctrination would be on a mind, even one like Shepard's. Shepard isn't immune. Arrival hints at that in very pointed matter. But constantly, through Liara and Arrival, the point is driven that Shepard has a resistance. Maybe he will arise unscathed to his whole being mentally, or he may be heavily compromised. That ball is in BioWare's court, not ours. It isn't our job to explain future DLC.

Now, I know you and I have gone back and forth a lot, and above is an abstract but well put together explanation. I know where you're coming from, and that is why it's a theory. It's speculation. It doesn't change the situation we are in, in that we have an ending that is lacking the necessary closure for fans. The only change is that the ending actually has a purpose to its madness and that there is now a possible opening for proper closure to take place.

Also, be aware that the first 3 books and the comics are canon. That is why they are advertised in ME2, and why events taken place in them found themselves in the games. If you can't read them or wiki chapter summaries, that's your issue, but you can't deny it due to personal preference.

[Makatak]

Shepard becomes the final boss of the next game/next trilogy, much like how the player character in Diablo becomes the final boss of one of the next Diablos.

[maxpowers2525]

really though the ideals are endless but the fact remains the crucible must be docked after that just let it destroy or disable the reapers and be done with it

[Jaze55]

ExSturminator wrote...

joshko wrote...

Bioware gets a second chance.

Hahaha, that was my first thought too reading the title.

As for the question, Saren and IM were indoctrinated too, but at a higher, more functional level so they could operate creatively and independently.  Since we've never seen the indoctrination process outside a few clips from the Reaper IFF mission in ME2, Bioware still has a lot of freedom here.  The effects may be permanent, but Shepard could just hear voices or have hallucinations; he's not necessarily a mindless drone or a complete tool.  Also remember he was reconstructed in Project Lazarus with potentially Reaper based tech (unless my lore is completely off), which could have a side-effect, like he's more resistant to indoctrination than others.

The only problem is its stated that indoctrination will eventually eat away at the victims mind and eventuallythey will become incapable of taking care of themselves.

[Jaze55]

ArkkAngel007 wrote...

Did you really have to make a new thread, despite it explained before?

What is happening, according to the theory, is an attempt at indoctrination. It's a matter of resistance, not immunity or recovery. For all we know, it does damage Shepard somehow if that event is taking place. We just don't know. However, again, Shepard is not indoctrinated until Shepard chooses Control or Synthesis. Destroy is the final act of resistance that breaks through the attempt as there are no longer any ways for Shepard's mind to supplant the information to keep the fantasy going.

We have only seen conscious individuals and those implanted with Reaper tech that the Reapers were aware of be turned and be indoctrinated. By the time we meet anyone in the game, even TIM, they are indoctrinated. The methodology on how they were, whether through physical or tactile means, is different amongst many of the cases.

Shepard's case is unique. He is physically compromised, as well as mentally, being in a state of shock and unconsciousness. With everything playing out in his mind, the keep of Shepard's mental fortress, things are much more malleable than in the real world on how the Reaper's can affect how Shepard perceives things. Shepard's resistance is to the point where the Reaper's actually have to trick Shepard to believe he is successful, with nudges here and there, in order to bypass Shepard's defense.

Again, we don't know how badly an attempt at indoctrination would be on a mind, even one like Shepard's. Shepard isn't immune. Arrival hints at that in very pointed matter. But constantly, through Liara and Arrival, the point is driven that Shepard has a resistance. Maybe he will arise unscathed to his whole being mentally, or he may be heavily compromised. That ball is in BioWare's court, not ours. It isn't our job to explain future DLC.

Now, I know you and I have gone back and forth a lot, and above is an abstract but well put together explanation. I know where you're coming from, and that is why it's a theory. It's speculation. It doesn't change the situation we are in, in that we have an ending that is lacking the necessary closure for fans. The only change is that the ending actually has a purpose to its madness and that there is now a possible opening for proper closure to take place.

Also, be aware that the first 3 books and the comics are canon. That is why they are advertised in ME2, and why events taken place in them found themselves in the games. If you can't read them or wiki chapter summaries, that's your issue, but you can't deny it due to personal preference.

I especially like the bolded part, which is a little ironic considering you people seem to think it's your job to re write the ending for Bioware and to educate the rest of us how correct it is. :happy:

[jsl1016]

MassEffected555 wrote...

Panicomatic wrote...

I'm pretty sure that if you take the destroy ending and have a high enough ems that you will shake of the Indoctrination. If you chose synthesis or control then you lose the inner battle and accept the will of the Reapers.

No sorry the game says it's permanant. Unless you want to open another plot hole to fill in a plot hole.

I think the point is you are NOT indoctrinated yet. The theory is that in the final end game the Reapers are trying to complete your indoctrination and bring you into their collective. If you choose destroy, you have resisted and wake up on earth with a free mind. Otherwise you choose to give up and get what you deserve. I.E. the Reapers win and the cycle continues.

[luzburg]

id like to see that edi finds out to use te crucible with the citadel to replicate the same saren-sovergin power surge. and affect the whole reaper fleet and then ems comes into play if you win or loose or middleground........

[movieguyabw]

Shepard is described as being remarkably strong willed by many characters in the Mass Effect universe. He/She's able to withstand the Prothean beacon - and not just one. There are probably about 3 or 4 you encounter over the course of the trilogy. It's stated that most other people would not be able to survive an encounter with 1.

Shep is also told (regardless of class, mind you) that despite having an L3 biotic implant, he/she spikes higher than Kaiden (a powerful biotic, with an L2 implant, which spikes higher than most)

Not to mention that everything Shepard does throughout the trilogy defies the impossible (this isn't a flaw in the story, mind you, but part of Shepard being a classic hero) I don't find it unbelievable in the slightest that Shepard can shrug off indoctrination. To say that he'd be indoctrinated forever would be to rewrite his character last minute from a classical hero (Indiana Jones, James Bond, Captain Kirk), to a tragic one. (Achiles, John Marsten, Macbeth)

Modifié par movieguyabw, 20 mars 2012 - 05:24 .

[TudorWolf]

This is one of my personal biggest issues with the indoc theory and a big part of why I don't accept it.

You do not fight off or overcome indoctrination, that has been one of the the most consistent bits of the lore, which is the crux of the theory.

[soull2]

I like the idea that if you choose the destroy ending you wake up and have a big ol’ fight with Harbinger. After killing him and depending on your galactic readiness you see an ending montage of the reapers being destroyed or winning. Shepard can either die or live in this ending.

If you choose the destroy ending you become indoctrinated but depending on your galactic readiness again you can either fight it off long enough to win the battle with Harbinger then have a party member kill you or commit suicide or see a cut scene of Shepard being a sleeper agent and the reapers win. With that last ending the final scene should show the reapers some time later, finishing up their task on Earth and leaving a mindless Shepad behind.

With the synthesis ending Shepard should be so indoctrinated he makes a beeline for the citadel light beam and is transported into the mind of a newly created reaper. If galactic readiness is high enough the reapers should still lose but there should be a big fight scene between the Normandy and reaper Shepard.

Just some thoughts.

Modifié par soull2, 20 mars 2012 - 05:27 .

[Jaze55]

soull2 wrote...

I like the idea that if you choose the destroy ending you wake up and have a big ol’ fight with Harbinger. After killing him and depending on your galactic readiness you see an ending montage of the reapers being destroyed or winning. Shepard can either die or live in this ending.

If you choose the destroy ending you become indoctrinated but depending on your galactic readiness again you can either fight it off long enough to win the battle with Harbinger then have a party member kill you or commit suicide or see a cut scene of Shepard being a sleeper agent and the reapers win. With that last ending the final scene should show the reapers some time later, finishing up their task on Earth and leaving a mindless Shepad behind.

With the synthesis ending Shepard should be so indoctrinated he makes a beeline for the citadel light beam and is transported into the mind of a newly created reaper. If galactic readiness is high enough the reapers should still lose but there should be a big fight scene between the Normandy and reaper Shepard.

Just some thoughts and nearly flushed out but whatever.

So Shepard, after getting stomped and half killed by the laser is going to all of a sudden wake up, be fully healed and kick Harby ass?

Yeah thats not space magic either. 

[effortname]

Destroy ending snaps you out of it, makes Harbinger hella mad. The other ones would force you into a mind-fight with him (something like Legion's Geth mind-world).

[AllThatJazz]

You wake up regardless of the choice you made, but the choice has an effect on the 'real' ending somehow. So if you picked control (for example), Harbinger still has a foothold in your brain - when you get to the final battle you can weaken Harbinger, but in order for him to be utterly destroyed, Shep must either commit suicide (like Saren can) or ask her teammates to kill her (like Benezia). Picking the 'destroy' option leads to a straight fight that Shep can win and live through. Err, dunno about synthesis, maybe Shep's squadmates, or some allies on Earth have been reaperised and Shep has to fight some hideous Wrex reaper or something?

Okay, I realise that's all rubbish , but the player shouldn't be punished for having picked 'control' or 'synthesis' over destroy. There should be consequences for Shep, yes, but not just an automatic 'game over' screen. Winning the war should still be an option, just make it harder if you chose to submit to the Reapers in Shep's hallucination.

Also, am thinking you have to board Harbinger somehow for the last fight, and disable him from the inside, possibly also allowing you to do further damage to the Reaper remnants while you're in there. He's weakened from firing the crucible which you do regardless of what option you chose - and this also destroys a large number of the Reaper forces. Once Harby's down, the remains of the Reapers are in disarray, and a newly motivated galactic force can take them down, with more or less losses depending on your EMS and which allies remain alive etc.

Modifié par AllThatJazz, 20 mars 2012 - 05:34 .

[Jaze55]

effortname wrote...

Destroy ending snaps you out of it, makes Harbinger hella mad. The other ones would force you into a mind-fight with him (something like Legion's Geth mind-world).

The other Reapers? I dunno if I was a Reaper I would just land and squash Shep. Make more sense then playing mind chess with him.

[ExSturminator]

MassEffected555 wrote...

ExSturminator wrote...

joshko wrote...

Bioware gets a second chance.

Hahaha, that was my first thought too reading the title.

As for the question, Saren and IM were indoctrinated too, but at a higher, more functional level so they could operate creatively and independently.  Since we've never seen the indoctrination process outside a few clips from the Reaper IFF mission in ME2, Bioware still has a lot of freedom here.  The effects may be permanent, but Shepard could just hear voices or have hallucinations; he's not necessarily a mindless drone or a complete tool.  Also remember he was reconstructed in Project Lazarus with potentially Reaper based tech (unless my lore is completely off), which could have a side-effect, like he's more resistant to indoctrination than others.

The only problem is its stated that indoctrination will eventually eat away at the victims mind and eventuallythey will become incapable of taking care of themselves.

That could be Shepard's eventual fate then.  It would be bittersweet, but depending on the severity, it could give us time for closure with LI, friends, races, etc.  Everyone dies, and that actually sounds like an appropriate ending for Shepard since he spent so much time fighting the Reapers; kind of like Marie Curie dying of radiation poisoning.

Also, I noticed you were asking what happens after indoctrination scene ends and Shepard wakes up; well, that's the problem, we could all make something up, but in reality the game ends there.  That IS the ending, we just hope Bioware decides to add to it after that.  They could do a lot better, and the fans are giving them an easy out with this Indoc theory, but in the end its Bioware's call.

[Aduro]

OP, you need to understand that Indoctrination Theory was made to explain away the plot-holes and inconsistency of the original ending. Also, many believed, or at the least strongly hoped, that it was true at the beginning - that Bioware was playing a meta level game or experience with their fans and that the 'true' endings would be released after. However, time passed and it became more apparent that the ending was intended, as bad as it was.

Now, it's more of our offering to Bioware. We provided an out - a way for them to keep the ending and build off of it in future DLC and lead to better endings.

Also, the theory clearly stipulates that he is not yet Indoctrinated (unless you pick an option other than Destroy). (2. Many people seem to think the relays being destroyed or Reapers leaving is counter-evidence... the theory has always included that as being in Shepard's head). In regards to Indoctrination being permanent: There are examples of the opposite. For instance, Saren and Benezia were able to fight it off right before they died.

There is no after - it is a convenient out for Bioware (even if it is by virtue of saying that most of it happened in his head).

And you're right, nobody should try to enforce it as the truth. At this point it's more likely that Bioware really did think that...somehow...what they provided was good.

[soull2]

MassEffected555 wrote...

soull2 wrote...

I like the idea that if you choose the destroy ending you wake up and have a big ol’ fight with Harbinger. After killing him and depending on your galactic readiness you see an ending montage of the reapers being destroyed or winning. Shepard can either die or live in this ending.

If you choose the destroy ending you become indoctrinated but depending on your galactic readiness again you can either fight it off long enough to win the battle with Harbinger then have a party member kill you or commit suicide or see a cut scene of Shepard being a sleeper agent and the reapers win. With that last ending the final scene should show the reapers some time later, finishing up their task on Earth and leaving a mindless Shepad behind.

With the synthesis ending Shepard should be so indoctrinated he makes a beeline for the citadel light beam and is transported into the mind of a newly created reaper. If galactic readiness is high enough the reapers should still lose but there should be a big fight scene between the Normandy and reaper Shepard.

Just some thoughts and nearly flushed out but whatever.

So Shepard, after getting stomped and half killed by the laser is going to all of a sudden wake up, be fully healed and kick Harby ass?

Yeah thats not space magic either. 

No, not at all. Someone somewhere, I can't remember who, had a great idea for a Harbinger fight that utilized the war assets gathered throughout the game. It wouldn’t just be a superman recovery (not that Shepard hasn’t done that before).

Also, nowhere did I say "fully healed".

Modifié par soull2, 20 mars 2012 - 05:31 .