463 réponses à ce sujet

[ArkkAngel007]

MassEffected555 wrote...

I especially like the bolded part, which is a little ironic considering you people seem to think it's your job to re write the ending for Bioware and to educate the rest of us how correct it is. :happy:

Most of us aren't pushing the theory on anyone.  Most of us tend to only reply if those like you want an explanation regarding certain aspects.  The only thing I educate is what the theory is, and leave it at that.

Which brings me to the point in that IT doesn't rewrite the ending.  It's a perspective.  Everything is happening, except it's believed to happen in Shepard's mind through an indoctrination attempt (or repeated attempts) instead of actually happening.  This theory was originally developed through the speculation on how Shepard could be alive.  

Again: It isn't about changing the endings, it's about explaining it.  It isn't about DLC, it's about the ending itself.

So don't put me in the same boat as some of the more liberal members of the group who tote it as fact and push it on everyone.  If you can't get that reality across, that the theory is not meant to be used in that manner, than there really is no sense in answering questions that you will misconstrue anyways to continue with that line of thought.

Now if I'm wrong about that particular mindset, feel free to respond to me in how I'm not correct. 

Now, I answered your question.  No, I didn't give you a concept that I know you were wanting to tear to shreds to prove your point.  I gave the logical response to your post.

[Aduro]

MassEffected555 wrote...

effortname wrote...

Destroy ending snaps you out of it, makes Harbinger hella mad. The other ones would force you into a mind-fight with him (something like Legion's Geth mind-world).

The other Reapers? I dunno if I was a Reaper I would just land and squash Shep. Make more sense then playing mind chess with him.

It has been postulated that this is why you get the 'Shepard breathing' ending only with a really really high EMS - Your fleet distracts the Reaper (Harbinger?) long enough for you to fight Indoctrination. Otherwise...well...*squish* XD

[effortname]

MassEffected555 wrote...

effortname wrote...

Destroy ending snaps you out of it, makes Harbinger hella mad. The other ones would force you into a mind-fight with him (something like Legion's Geth mind-world).

The other Reapers? I dunno if I was a Reaper I would just land and squash Shep. Make more sense then playing mind chess with him.

Think the end from Dark City, but it's all in their minds. You could have Harbinger weakened from the thing like when Shep kills Saren in ME1 with regard to Sovereign. It works out.

[DeathScepter]

Well how do you know that Destroy ending snaps you out of it. How do you know that The Reapers is messing with your head?

[H. Birdman]

If you get indoctrinated, your goal becomes to briefly realize that you're indoctrinated and put a bullet in your head like Saren and TIM, to minimize the damage you cause.

How's this for a post-indoctrination ending, then:

The DLC features Shepard leading the resistance in the real final battle for Earth. If you chose "destroy," it's a straight up fight to the finish, perhaps with a chance of Shep surviving. If you chose either of the other options, you fight through many of the same scenes, but the objectives are slightly different. They seem ... off. Almost like you're taking your force the wrong way.

At the end, a Shepard who chose "destroy" will face off against Harbinger with the outcome determined by specific decisions and EMS. A Shepard who chose "control" or "synthesis" will face another internal "dream" sequence in which he somehow struggles to realize he is indoctrinated. If he succeeds, he gets a final moment of lucidity to tell the troops to go back, and then kills himself, preferably in some way (e.g., suicide bomb) that takes out Harbinger or some other major threat. If he fails, the force is destroyed and the Reapers win.

[Jaze55]

Aduro wrote...

OP, you need to understand that Indoctrination Theory was made to explain away the plot-holes and inconsistency of the original ending. Also, many believed, or at the least strongly hoped, that it was true at the beginning - that Bioware was playing a meta level game or experience with their fans and that the 'true' endings would be released after. However, time passed and it became more apparent that the ending was intended, as bad as it was.

Now, it's more of our offering to Bioware. We provided an out - a way for them to keep the ending and build off of it in future DLC and lead to better endings.

Also, the theory clearly stipulates that he is not yet Indoctrinated (unless you pick an option other than Destroy). (2. Many people seem to think the relays being destroyed or Reapers leaving is counter-evidence... the theory has always included that as being in Shepard's head). In regards to Indoctrination being permanent: There are examples of the opposite. For instance, Saren and Benezia were able to fight it off right before they died.

There is no after - it is a convenient out for Bioware (even if it is by virtue of saying that most of it happened in his head).

And you're right, nobody should try to enforce it as the truth. At this point it's more likely that Bioware really did think that...somehow...what they provided was good.

I completely understand the theory and I am even conceeding that if the did it I am now OK with it. Not because of any proof, videos or anything I read except this: Its pretty stupid you build a super weapon and the only way to set it off is to jump into 1 of 2 beams or blow it up. That's the ONLY reason I am now OK with the theory. 

BUT the theory in no way fixes the ending if you try to figure out what happens next.

I have yet to hear a plausable next step if we use the theory. So right now, even though I am willing to accept it as a way to continue the ending, i dont see how they can without making the ending worse. 

[Jaze55]

effortname wrote...

MassEffected555 wrote...

effortname wrote...

Destroy ending snaps you out of it, makes Harbinger hella mad. The other ones would force you into a mind-fight with him (something like Legion's Geth mind-world).

The other Reapers? I dunno if I was a Reaper I would just land and squash Shep. Make more sense then playing mind chess with him.

Think the end from Dark City, but it's all in their minds. You could have Harbinger weakened from the thing like when Shep kills Saren in ME1 with regard to Sovereign. It works out.

Sorry I didn't play Dark City. If it's good let me know I'll check it out. But yeah never played it so sorry I can't use that as a comparision. 

[effortname]

Sorry I didn't play Dark City. If it's good let me know I'll check it out. But yeah never played it so sorry I can't use that as a comparision.

It's a freakin cool movie that kinda inspired the matrix, but not really. Anyway I meant the other endings, not the other reapers. Sorry I just realized that may have been slightly confusing.

[Jaze55]

effortname wrote...

Sorry I didn't play Dark City. If it's good let me know I'll check it out. But yeah never played it so sorry I can't use that as a comparision.

It's a freakin cool movie that kinda inspired the matrix, but not really. Anyway I meant the other endings, not the other reapers. Sorry I just realized that may have been slightly confusing.

I'll check it out then. 

But guys come one, the theory can't work if there isn't a way to continue. 1 poster above said the only possible end I can think of and it's Shepard having just enough time to beat the reapers and then kill himself.

So unless someone has a better idea is that what we are all ok with? Shepard breaking free just long enough to stop the Reaper invasion and then kill himself?

[MadRabbit999]

MassEffected555 wrote...

I am NOT bashing the theory, I just want it to make sense.

Make it make sense to me pls. Just the after effect, I read the 1 bazillion posts explaining how it can fit.

The game also says that death is permanent... guess what? It's not...

If you kill the reapers, who is there left to control Shepard? The indoctrination would end.

[Aduro]

MassEffected555 wrote...

BUT the theory in no way fixes the ending if you try to figure out what happens next.

I have yet to hear a plausable next step if we use the theory. So right now, even though I am willing to accept it as a way to continue the ending, i dont see how they can without making the ending worse. 

Nobody debates that it gives an incomplete ending - all it does is fix the mistakes that exist and provide an opportunity to then create a satisfactory ending.

And there have been many plausable next steps. For instance - Shepard could just be downed (maybe Indoctrinated). Joker could come in and fire distraction shots at Harby/Reaper (as per the audio that was never used), while other Soldiers/Anderson/Squad mates reach the Citadel and activate the real Crucible. Then the crucible does whatever it does - supposedly give them a weapon that is strong enough to destroy the Reapers. From there it's more speculation, as we wouldn't really know what it does. Though it's not unreasonable to think that it is a weapon powerful enough to start ripping through Reapers.

Modifié par Aduro, 20 mars 2012 - 05:44 .

[Jaze55]

soull2 wrote...

MassEffected555 wrote...

soull2 wrote...

I like the idea that if you choose the destroy ending you wake up and have a big ol’ fight with Harbinger. After killing him and depending on your galactic readiness you see an ending montage of the reapers being destroyed or winning. Shepard can either die or live in this ending.

If you choose the destroy ending you become indoctrinated but depending on your galactic readiness again you can either fight it off long enough to win the battle with Harbinger then have a party member kill you or commit suicide or see a cut scene of Shepard being a sleeper agent and the reapers win. With that last ending the final scene should show the reapers some time later, finishing up their task on Earth and leaving a mindless Shepad behind.

With the synthesis ending Shepard should be so indoctrinated he makes a beeline for the citadel light beam and is transported into the mind of a newly created reaper. If galactic readiness is high enough the reapers should still lose but there should be a big fight scene between the Normandy and reaper Shepard.

Just some thoughts and nearly flushed out but whatever.

So Shepard, after getting stomped and half killed by the laser is going to all of a sudden wake up, be fully healed and kick Harby ass?

Yeah thats not space magic either. 

No, not at all. Someone somewhere, I can't remember who, had a great idea for a Harbinger fight that utilized the war assets gathered throughout the game. It wouldn’t just be a superman recovery (not that Shepard hasn’t done that before).

Also, nowhere did I say "fully healed".

Shepard looks pretty F*d up though doesn't he? I don't see how he can fight a reaper. OK hows this. Harrby comes back down, is about to hit Shep with the laser again but your war assets come to save the day.

Then what? Shepard slowly half crawls half stumbles to the beam to make it to the citadel to open the arms .... wait this sounds familiar for some reason....

[Kidroz]

What is this guys problem?

[Apocsapel91]

MassEffected555 wrote...
 Save the day in 2 minutes or less

Or the next cycle is free!

Sorry, I just had to when I read that.

Modifié par Apocsapel91, 20 mars 2012 - 05:40 .

[Jaze55]

Apocsapel91 wrote...

MassEffected555 wrote...
 Save the day in 2 minutes or less

Or the next cycle is free!

Sorry, I just had to when I read that.

Actually that was pretty clever.

[Candidate 88766]

Indoctrination results in permanent mental changes to the subject, making them susceptible to the Reapers' will. Given that Shepard has been indoctrinated in this ending, any choice you make leads to Shepard failing.

Some people seem to believe that indoctrination is some inception-style mind game, where the Reapers try to gain control of your mind, but you can somehow resist. A quick glance at the codex throws this into serious doubt:

 Reaper "indoctrination" is an insidious means of corrupting organic minds, "reprogramming" the brain through physical and psychological conditioning using electromagnetic fields, infrasonic and ultrasonic noise, and other subliminal methods. The Reaper's resulting control over the limbic system leaves the victim highly susceptible to its suggestions.Organics undergoing indoctrination may complain of headaches and buzzing or ringing in their ears. As time passes, they have feelings of "being watched" and hallucinations of "ghostly" presences. Ultimately, the Reaper gains the ability to use the victim's body to amplify its signals, manifesting as "alien" voices in the mind.Indoctrination can create perfect deep cover agents. A Reaper's "suggestions" can manipulate victims into betraying friends, trusting enemies, or viewing the Reaper itself with superstitious awe. Should a Reaper subvert a well-placed political or military leader, the resulting chaos can bring down nations.Long-term physical effects of the manipulation are unsustainable, Higher mental functioning decays, ultimately leaving the victim a gibbering animal. Rapid indoctrination is possible, but causes this decay in days or weeks. Slow, patient indoctrination allows the thrall to last for months or years.

Indoctrination is nothing more than signals - we know this from the colonists on Eden Prime in ME1, Benezia in ME1, the Rachni Queen in ME1 and ME3, and the scientists on Virmire: indoctrination manifests itself as a noise, which you can't drown out. Willpower can't block subliminal signals or EM fields. And these signals don't create some kind of dream world where your mind fights the minds of the Reapers.

There is plenty of (often compelling) evidence that what Shepard is seeing at the end is some kind of dream or hallucination. However, the lore of the game throws into serious doubt that these hallucinations - of entire sequences and conversations, not simply of 'ghostly persences' - are the result of indoctrination. Thats simply not how indoctrination works. 

Its not some battle of wills, or some fabricated dream world where the Reapers try to stealthily break your mind, it is simply signals. The only variable that affects its success is time - given enough time, you will always fall to indoctrination.

Thats not to say this directly disproves the theory - indeed, the theory could work if the manner in which indoctrination works is changed. But if the theory requires fundamental lore changes in order to work, is it any better than the endings we got?

Modifié par Candidate 88766, 20 mars 2012 - 05:41 .

[ArkkAngel007]

MassEffected555 wrote...

Aduro wrote...

OP, you need to understand that Indoctrination Theory was made to explain away the plot-holes and inconsistency of the original ending. Also, many believed, or at the least strongly hoped, that it was true at the beginning - that Bioware was playing a meta level game or experience with their fans and that the 'true' endings would be released after. However, time passed and it became more apparent that the ending was intended, as bad as it was.

Now, it's more of our offering to Bioware. We provided an out - a way for them to keep the ending and build off of it in future DLC and lead to better endings.

Also, the theory clearly stipulates that he is not yet Indoctrinated (unless you pick an option other than Destroy). (2. Many people seem to think the relays being destroyed or Reapers leaving is counter-evidence... the theory has always included that as being in Shepard's head). In regards to Indoctrination being permanent: There are examples of the opposite. For instance, Saren and Benezia were able to fight it off right before they died.

There is no after - it is a convenient out for Bioware (even if it is by virtue of saying that most of it happened in his head).

And you're right, nobody should try to enforce it as the truth. At this point it's more likely that Bioware really did think that...somehow...what they provided was good.

I completely understand the theory and I am even conceeding that if the did it I am now OK with it. Not because of any proof, videos or anything I read except this: Its pretty stupid you build a super weapon and the only way to set it off is to jump into 1 of 2 beams or blow it up. That's the ONLY reason I am now OK with the theory. 

BUT the theory in no way fixes the ending if you try to figure out what happens next.

I have yet to hear a plausable next step if we use the theory. So right now, even though I am willing to accept it as a way to continue the ending, i dont see how they can without making the ending worse. 

Why do you think many who are part of the theory are also part of ReTake?  We recognize the same problem in that it doesn't fix the ending at all.  Sure, it explains the plot holes and the weird crap, but it doesn't solve the problem that we all have with the endings.  Heck, it opens the issue up more because now everything has to gain closure.  Either way, the ending was horribly executed.

I'm pretty sure people could come up with endings to follow up, but that's just fan-fiction.  It's better to just push for a proper resolution, regardless of how you perceive the endings.  And if BioWare retcons Indoctrination somehow to fit it, well, you have a pretty good position and enough evidence already to call them out on it.

[Gunslinger01101]

MassEffected555 wrote...

Panicomatic wrote...

I'm pretty sure that if you take the destroy ending and have a high enough ems that you will shake of the Indoctrination. If you chose synthesis or control then you lose the inner battle and accept the will of the Reapers.

No sorry the game says it's permanant. Unless you want to open another plot hole to fill in a plot hole.

People on these forums do NOT communicate well AT ALL. What he MEANT to say was not that you shake it off, but that if you wake up after doing destroy, you were NEVER successfully indoctrinated. You aren't shaking it off, you beat it to begin with. You are only indoctrinated if you chose control or synthesis.

[kunzite]

So,,,clarify this for me everyone, cuz I'm kinda lost following all this.

Is the Indoc Theory saying that all three options of the ending are part of the attempted indoctrination process, and none of it actually happens? I can buy that, really. Either you die in Harbinger's blast, and the vision is the last one you have, kind of getting your peace (though screwing the rest of the galaxy). Or you wake up (the destruction ending) and the real ending begins.


Is that what people mean?

[mkelso27]

Just like we don't know all there is to know about the reapers, I doubt we know all there is to know about indoctrination.

[Jaze55]

ArkkAngel007 wrote...

MassEffected555 wrote...

Aduro wrote...

OP, you need to understand that Indoctrination Theory was made to explain away the plot-holes and inconsistency of the original ending. Also, many believed, or at the least strongly hoped, that it was true at the beginning - that Bioware was playing a meta level game or experience with their fans and that the 'true' endings would be released after. However, time passed and it became more apparent that the ending was intended, as bad as it was.

Now, it's more of our offering to Bioware. We provided an out - a way for them to keep the ending and build off of it in future DLC and lead to better endings.

Also, the theory clearly stipulates that he is not yet Indoctrinated (unless you pick an option other than Destroy). (2. Many people seem to think the relays being destroyed or Reapers leaving is counter-evidence... the theory has always included that as being in Shepard's head). In regards to Indoctrination being permanent: There are examples of the opposite. For instance, Saren and Benezia were able to fight it off right before they died.

There is no after - it is a convenient out for Bioware (even if it is by virtue of saying that most of it happened in his head).

And you're right, nobody should try to enforce it as the truth. At this point it's more likely that Bioware really did think that...somehow...what they provided was good.

I completely understand the theory and I am even conceeding that if the did it I am now OK with it. Not because of any proof, videos or anything I read except this: Its pretty stupid you build a super weapon and the only way to set it off is to jump into 1 of 2 beams or blow it up. That's the ONLY reason I am now OK with the theory. 

BUT the theory in no way fixes the ending if you try to figure out what happens next.

I have yet to hear a plausable next step if we use the theory. So right now, even though I am willing to accept it as a way to continue the ending, i dont see how they can without making the ending worse. 

Why do you think many who are part of the theory are also part of ReTake?  We recognize the same problem in that it doesn't fix the ending at all.  Sure, it explains the plot holes and the weird crap, but it doesn't solve the problem that we all have with the endings.  Heck, it opens the issue up more because now everything has to gain closure.  Either way, the ending was horribly executed.

I'm pretty sure people could come up with endings to follow up, but that's just fan-fiction.  It's better to just push for a proper resolution, regardless of how you perceive the endings.  And if BioWare retcons Indoctrination somehow to fit it, well, you have a pretty good position and enough evidence already to call them out on it.

And the indoc theory isn't fan fiction?

Regardless I can't come up with anything but what I said about it has to end with Shepard killing himself and I am simply asking how exactly they are supposed to make an ending based off the indoc theory.

[Jaze55]

kunzite wrote...

So,,,clarify this for me everyone, cuz I'm kinda lost following all this.

Is the Indoc Theory saying that all three options of the ending are part of the attempted indoctrination process, and none of it actually happens? I can buy that, really. Either you die in Harbinger's blast, and the vision is the last one you have, kind of getting your peace (though screwing the rest of the galaxy). Or you wake up (the destruction ending) and the real ending begins.


Is that what people mean?

Pretty sure thats what they mean

[Candidate 88766]

The best way to fix the endings isn't to try to fit it into what we've got, as the theory does. The stuff with the Catalyst child and the Normandy crash, for example, are just too poorly written for any theory to provide a truly good ending.

We should all be hoping for something that actually makes sense and isn't confined by the current endings. Whether thats the indoc theory or not is irrelevant. Indeed, the indoc theory could be excellent if done right. However, trying to fit the indoc theory into the current endings is just trying to create sense out of something that simply doesn't make sense in the first place.

[kunzite]

MassEffected555 wrote...

kunzite wrote...

So,,,clarify this for me everyone, cuz I'm kinda lost following all this.

Is the Indoc Theory saying that all three options of the ending are part of the attempted indoctrination process, and none of it actually happens? I can buy that, really. Either you die in Harbinger's blast, and the vision is the last one you have, kind of getting your peace (though screwing the rest of the galaxy). Or you wake up (the destruction ending) and the real ending begins.


Is that what people mean?

Pretty sure thats what they mean

Then...I have another question. If it is all a dream/hallucination, and the Destroy option breaks the indoc attempt and you wake up in reality.....why does the destruct choice still show all the stuff with the Normandy crashing and the Reapers falling over in London? If you choose Destroy and wake up in the rubble....none of those images make sense, if they didnt happen.

[Jaze55]

kunzite wrote...

MassEffected555 wrote...

kunzite wrote...

So,,,clarify this for me everyone, cuz I'm kinda lost following all this.

Is the Indoc Theory saying that all three options of the ending are part of the attempted indoctrination process, and none of it actually happens? I can buy that, really. Either you die in Harbinger's blast, and the vision is the last one you have, kind of getting your peace (though screwing the rest of the galaxy). Or you wake up (the destruction ending) and the real ending begins.


Is that what people mean?

Pretty sure thats what they mean

Then...I have another question. If it is all a dream/hallucination, and the Destroy option breaks the indoc attempt and you wake up in reality.....why does the destruct choice still show all the stuff with the Normandy crashing and the Reapers falling over in London? If you choose Destroy and wake up in the rubble....none of those images make sense, if they didnt happen.

Because it's actually the real ending of the game. Half (or more it seems) seem to think that Bioware is trolling us and held back the ending, if you can belive that.

The other half, who I have zero problems with, want to use it as a way to allow Bioware to simply continue the game and give BW the opportunity to fix the mess of an ending

See I DO get the theory.