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[Candidate 88766]

kunzite wrote...

MassEffected555 wrote...

kunzite wrote...

So,,,clarify this for me everyone, cuz I'm kinda lost following all this.

Is the Indoc Theory saying that all three options of the ending are part of the attempted indoctrination process, and none of it actually happens? I can buy that, really. Either you die in Harbinger's blast, and the vision is the last one you have, kind of getting your peace (though screwing the rest of the galaxy). Or you wake up (the destruction ending) and the real ending begins.


Is that what people mean?

Pretty sure thats what they mean

Then...I have another question. If it is all a dream/hallucination, and the Destroy option breaks the indoc attempt and you wake up in reality.....why does the destruct choice still show all the stuff with the Normandy crashing and the Reapers falling over in London? If you choose Destroy and wake up in the rubble....none of those images make sense, if they didnt happen.

It also wouldn't make sense for Bioware to make only one 'true' ending to the series, when its meant to be open ended, and to make that one true ending require multiplayer to get.

[soull2]

MassEffected555 wrote...


Shepard looks pretty F*d up though doesn't he? I don't see how he can fight a reaper. OK hows this. Harrby comes back down, is about to hit Shep with the laser again but your war assets come to save the day.

Then what? Shepard slowly half crawls half stumbles to the beam to make it to the citadel to open the arms .... wait this sounds familiar for some reason....

Actually, I find no reason for there to be anyone going to the citadel at all but it is a good point to ponder as you don't want to just dump a plot point you spent the whole game trying to get. Still, it would be silly to go into a loop with the game but if at the end it turned out to just be a big ass gun and Shep goes into the beam and activates it without the TIM and star child stuff happening it would still be better than what is currently going on. It really
is no more redundant than fighting Saren or the human reaper twice. 

And yes, ****ed up but not out.

Modifié par soull2, 20 mars 2012 - 05:50 .

[Thorn Harvestar]

kunzite wrote...

MassEffected555 wrote...

kunzite wrote...

So,,,clarify this for me everyone, cuz I'm kinda lost following all this.

Is the Indoc Theory saying that all three options of the ending are part of the attempted indoctrination process, and none of it actually happens? I can buy that, really. Either you die in Harbinger's blast, and the vision is the last one you have, kind of getting your peace (though screwing the rest of the galaxy). Or you wake up (the destruction ending) and the real ending begins.


Is that what people mean?

Pretty sure thats what they mean

Then...I have another question. If it is all a dream/hallucination, and the Destroy option breaks the indoc attempt and you wake up in reality.....why does the destruct choice still show all the stuff with the Normandy crashing and the Reapers falling over in London? If you choose Destroy and wake up in the rubble....none of those images make sense, if they didnt happen.

The thought is they didn't happen. Shep hasn't "woken up" yet when this occurs.

[ArkkAngel007]

Candidate 88766 wrote...

Indoctrination results in permanent mental changes to the subject, making them susceptible to the Reapers' will. Given that Shepard has been indoctrinated in this ending, any choice you make leads to Shepard failing.

Some people seem to believe that indoctrination is some inception-style mind game, where the Reapers try to gain control of your mind, but you can somehow resist. A quick glance at the codex throws this into serious doubt:

 Reaper "indoctrination" is an insidious means of corrupting organic minds, "reprogramming" the brain through physical and psychological conditioning using electromagnetic fields, infrasonic and ultrasonic noise, and other subliminal methods. The Reaper's resulting control over the limbic system leaves the victim highly susceptible to its suggestions.Organics undergoing indoctrination may complain of headaches and buzzing or ringing in their ears. As time passes, they have feelings of "being watched" and hallucinations of "ghostly" presences. Ultimately, the Reaper gains the ability to use the victim's body to amplify its signals, manifesting as "alien" voices in the mind.Indoctrination can create perfect deep cover agents. A Reaper's "suggestions" can manipulate victims into betraying friends, trusting enemies, or viewing the Reaper itself with superstitious awe. Should a Reaper subvert a well-placed political or military leader, the resulting chaos can bring down nations.Long-term physical effects of the manipulation are unsustainable, Higher mental functioning decays, ultimately leaving the victim a gibbering animal. Rapid indoctrination is possible, but causes this decay in days or weeks. Slow, patient indoctrination allows the thrall to last for months or years.

Indoctrination is nothing more than signals - we know this from the colonists on Eden Prime in ME1, Benezia in ME1, the Rachni Queen in ME1 and ME3, and the scientists on Virmire: indoctrination manifests itself as a noise, which you can't drown out. Willpower can't block subliminal signals or EM fields. And these signals don't create some kind of dream world where your mind fights the minds of the Reapers.

There is plenty of (often compelling) evidence that what Shepard is seeing at the end is some kind of dream or hallucination. However, the lore of the game throws into serious doubt that these hallucinations - of entire sequences and conversations, not simply of 'ghostly persences' - are the result of indoctrination. Thats simply not how indoctrination works. 

Its not some battle of wills, or some fabricated dream world where the Reapers try to stealthily break your mind, it is simply signals. The only variable that affects its success is time - given enough time, you will always fall to indoctrination.

Thats not to say this directly disproves the theory - indeed, the theory could work if the manner in which indoctrination works is changed. But if the theory requires fundamental lore changes in order to work, is it any better than the endings we got?

It's not necesarilly will power though.  Shepard's mind has a resistance, and that can be for any number of neurological reasons.  In any other mind, the Reapers could try a subtle or forceful application of the signal, which has already been shown to happen in the endings through IT...when Reapers amp up the signal, we see it transmuted into imagery through TIM's actions.  Remember that, if IT stands, Shepard is within his mind, and that anything affecting it will cause a parallel image to that action.  Now that is pretty mint IMO if it's the case.

However, something in Shepard's mind is either disrupting or "blocking" this signal.  Whatever is causing this requires Shepard to accept the message in order to remove this barrier.

This was already heavily discussed in the main thread fairly early on.  Hopefully the above I posted makes sense and that I didn't botch it.

[Aduro]

And the indoc theory isn't fan fiction?

Regardless I can't come up with anything but what I said about it has to end with Shepard killing himself and I am simply asking how exactly they are supposed to make an ending based off the indoc theory.

And there have been many plausable next steps. For instance - Shepard could just be downed (maybe Indoctrinated). Joker could come in and fire distraction shots at Harby/Reaper (as per the audio that was never used), while other Soldiers/Anderson/Squad mates reach the Citadel and activate the real Crucible. Then the crucible does whatever it does - supposedly give them a weapon that is strong enough to destroy the Reapers. From there it's more speculation, as we wouldn't really know what it does. Though it's not unreasonable to think that it is a weapon powerful enough to start ripping through Reapers.

Out of curiosity - why do you seem so dead set on thinking the only way to actually beat the Reapers/have an end is through Shepard?

Heck, for all we know he gets the best medi-gel (plus a little bit of 'Rage is a hell of an anesthetic') and makes it - battered and broken - to the Crucible. I, for one, had no problem with the near death Shepard. It's everything starting with the God-child that riles me up, save for some inconsistencies that pop up starting from Harby's blast.

[Thorn Harvestar]

I like the Indoc. theory, but I know it's all fan-theory at this point. TBH I'd be happy with even just an expanded epilogue, but I'll bite.

I'm not going to try to write an entire ending, but I think there are a few ways it could play out:

If you picked Destroy, the Indoctrination never fully took place. The attempts they made ultimately failed. It doesn't matter if we have no proof of this happening before (though some things like Shiala show ways Indoctrination isn't foolproof).

If you picked Synth/Control, then either you've lost already and need to replay the final mission, or you will struggle through the next stages, possibly ending up with a crewmate/LI having to push you. Maybe an emotional end situation where Shep gives in completely and needs to be put down or put himself down, and it's your crew that finishes the job (or fails).

Some ideas:

1) Shepard realizes the Crucible device is just a Reaper trap to try to trick the galaxy into putting all of it's resistance eggs in one basket. However, the Reapers weren't expecting such a united front. It's up to the Fleet's strength itself to finish the fight. Here's where all of your hard work during ME3 makes or breaks your outcome. (This is from that youtube video circulating around; you've probably seen it). While the fleet does it's thing, you face off with Harbinger in some way.

2) The Crucible is completely different inside once Shep actually enters after waking up. There is no Godchild, but rather a VI comprised of Prothean (and pre-Prothean races) intelligence. It explains what must be done to actually fire the weapon. Another way to face off with Harbinger, possibly Anderson being controlled by Harbinger? Must get through Harbinger to finish the job.

Regardless: The outcome of you and your crew should depend on EMS and other mission results/choices. More variety in ending cutscenes. Catharsis epilogue cutscenes at tail end.

This was all hastily written, and I'm sure I made some glaring errors somewhere.

Modifié par Thorn Harvestar, 20 mars 2012 - 05:50 .

[Jaze55]

However I am having a problem seeing exactly HOW they can pick up where the indoc theory leave out unless Shep has to kill himself which IMO would suck a lot more then what we got.

I am still waiting for a plausible way from someone .....

[kunzite]

Interesting. I could tie indoc, as I understand it, into my own theory...and that gives me one hell of an ending. You know what I am talking about ME555. Wow. Awesome headcanon, but still something I could totally live with.

[Jaze55]

Aduro wrote...

And the indoc theory isn't fan fiction?

Regardless I can't come up with anything but what I said about it has to end with Shepard killing himself and I am simply asking how exactly they are supposed to make an ending based off the indoc theory.

And there have been many plausable next steps. For instance - Shepard could just be downed (maybe Indoctrinated). Joker could come in and fire distraction shots at Harby/Reaper (as per the audio that was never used), while other Soldiers/Anderson/Squad mates reach the Citadel and activate the real Crucible. Then the crucible does whatever it does - supposedly give them a weapon that is strong enough to destroy the Reapers. From there it's more speculation, as we wouldn't really know what it does. Though it's not unreasonable to think that it is a weapon powerful enough to start ripping through Reapers.

Out of curiosity - why do you seem so dead set on thinking the only way to actually beat the Reapers/have an end is through Shepard?

Heck, for all we know he gets the best medi-gel (plus a little bit of 'Rage is a hell of an anesthetic') and makes it - battered and broken - to the Crucible. I, for one, had no problem with the near death Shepard. It's everything starting with the God-child that riles me up, save for some inconsistencies that pop up starting from Harby's blast.

See that's an idea right there. Shep has to do nothing, the war assets do it. But who opens the Citadel so we can dock the Crucible or do we just not use it and fight the Reapers with the War Assest we got?

[jspiess]

Panicomatic wrote...

I'm pretty sure that if you take the destroy ending and have a high enough ems that you will shake off the Indoctrination. If you chose synthesis or control then you lose the inner battle and accept the will of the Reapers.

Shep gets up and kills Harbinger with his omniblade just like in my Walking Dead-MassEffect wallpaper

[ExSturminator]

By the way, if you just want a WAY to continue as a proof of concept: REALLY high EMS score and Destroy ending chosen results in Harbinger being distracted and leaving before you get squished/indoctrinated fully. Squadies, who didn't rush down the hill with you (look behind you as you run and Harbinger attacks, they stand at the top watching; did in my playthrough anyway), pull you out of rubble as beam of light disappears. TIM is on the Citadel, has been all along, and he opened it so Hackett would plug in Crucible for him thinking you were the one opening it. You don't have time to warn Hackett so you call in Normandy as Reapers take to the sky to stop unexpected opening of Citadel and the battle really heats up in space.

From here, you can come up with just about anything. TIM is still a problem, Shepard's injuries could range from superficial to critical, effects and results of Crucible are still up in the air. Its a whole new lease on life for the writers to come up with something epic.

[Jaze55]

kunzite wrote...

Interesting. I could tie indoc, as I understand it, into my own theory...and that gives me one hell of an ending. You know what I am talking about ME555. Wow. Awesome headcanon, but still something I could totally live with.

Glad to be of help

[kunzite]

MassEffected555 wrote...

Aduro wrote...

And the indoc theory isn't fan fiction?

Regardless I can't come up with anything but what I said about it has to end with Shepard killing himself and I am simply asking how exactly they are supposed to make an ending based off the indoc theory.

And there have been many plausable next steps. For instance - Shepard could just be downed (maybe Indoctrinated). Joker could come in and fire distraction shots at Harby/Reaper (as per the audio that was never used), while other Soldiers/Anderson/Squad mates reach the Citadel and activate the real Crucible. Then the crucible does whatever it does - supposedly give them a weapon that is strong enough to destroy the Reapers. From there it's more speculation, as we wouldn't really know what it does. Though it's not unreasonable to think that it is a weapon powerful enough to start ripping through Reapers.

Out of curiosity - why do you seem so dead set on thinking the only way to actually beat the Reapers/have an end is through Shepard?

Heck, for all we know he gets the best medi-gel (plus a little bit of 'Rage is a hell of an anesthetic') and makes it - battered and broken - to the Crucible. I, for one, had no problem with the near death Shepard. It's everything starting with the God-child that riles me up, save for some inconsistencies that pop up starting from Harby's blast.

See that's an idea right there. Shep has to do nothing, the war assets do it. But who opens the Citadel so we can dock the Crucible or do we just not use it and fight the Reapers with the War Assest we got?

Shepard is the true Catalyst. Just a thought from my own theory.

[Liber320]

That's for Bioware to figure out, we can't do all their work for them.

But assuming the "braindead indoctrinated once Reapers leave" thing is true, and Sheperd knows this, it could make for a great ending. He continues the fight not thinking, but knowing that he will die if he wins, but everyone will die if he loses.

It'll make everything post-indco attempt that much more emotionally engaging.

[soull2]

Liber320 wrote...

That's for Bioware to figure out, we can't do all their work for them.

But assuming the "braindead indoctrinated once Reapers leave" thing is true, and Sheperd knows this, it could make for a great ending. He continues the fight not thinking, but knowing that he will die if he wins, but everyone will die if he loses.

It'll make everything post-indco attempt that much more emotionally engaging.

I like this. Now I want Mass Effect 4 so you can play a whole game with this plot.

j/k... maybe...

[Jaze55]

Yeah but off that easter egg ending like I said Shepard looks in no shape to be moving or fighting. And someone still has to get to the Citadel to dock the Crucible. There is NO way you can have an end and just ignore the crucible since its pretty much the point of the game getting it built.

[LolaLei]

MassEffected555 wrote...

Just what the title says.

What's next? The game specifically states once you are indoctrinated you are permantly. There is no cure. You can't block it - I dont care about books, not everyone read the books the are not cannon to the video games, they are side stories.

OK so according to the video game you can't get rid of indoctrination. So what happens after Shep wakes up? Only think I can think of is Benezia and Saren. They were able to resist if only for a short time and that was for Saren to kill himself and for Benezia to give them some info on Saren. Note that Benezia right back at trying to kill SHep and crew after she gave the info.

So taking that into consideration, what does Shep do next? Save the day in 2 minutes or less and then shoot himself in the face before he is back under Reaper control?

It is also stated that when the Reapers leave after a cycle the people who were indoctrinated and no longer hear the signal from the reapers just stand around and starve to death. The reapers leave and the signal stops, but everyone is still a brain dead vegie.

So please let me know what to expect after the Indoc Theory because it looks pretty bleak to me.  

If I was Bioware and I decided to run with the indoctrination theory then the only way I can see it working would be as follows:

Shepards picks from the control, merge or destroy options - regardless of which option you pick Shepard suddenly wakes up from the attempted indoctrination hallucination (either in the rubble or in a hospital somewhere or whatever) and as far as the player knows Shepard has beaten the indoctrination. You then carry on with your mission to defeat the Reapers. Now, here's where the plot twist kicks in: As you approach the end boss fight/final scenes IF you picked the control or merge option during the hallucination then Harbinger assumes direct control of Shepards body - you then have to play as one of you team members or LI to defeat the indoctinated Shepard. Your chosen squad member deals the fatal blow and you watch as Shepard bleeds out. In his/her last dying breaths Shepard briefly regains control of his/her body to tell the chosen team member/LI how much he/she loves them before dying (I feel this would be a very poignant and heart breaking scene.) OR Shepard manages to regain enough control to do something which finally kills off the Reapers before dying (I haven't given the latter much thought yet lol.)

IF however you chose the destroy option Shepard was able to successfully fight off the indoctrination attempt and go on to win a boss fight against Harbinger or whoever/defeat the Reapers once and for all.

... Somewhere amongst all that you get to see your war assets in action and your EMS score depends on how successful they are etc.

Modifié par LolaLei, 20 mars 2012 - 05:59 .

[Candidate 88766]

ArkkAngel007 wrote...

It's not necesarilly will power though.  Shepard's mind has a resistance, and that can be for any number of neurological reasons.  In any other mind, the Reapers could try a subtle or forceful application of the signal, which has already been shown to happen in the endings through IT...when Reapers amp up the signal, we see it transmuted into imagery through TIM's actions.  Remember that, if IT stands, Shepard is within his mind, and that anything affecting it will cause a parallel image to that action.  Now that is pretty mint IMO if it's the case.

However, something in Shepard's mind is either disrupting or "blocking" this signal.  Whatever is causing this requires Shepard to accept the message in order to remove this barrier.

This was already heavily discussed in the main thread fairly early on.  Hopefully the above I posted makes sense and that I didn't botch it.

The question is why indoctrination would force Shepard to go into his own mind, when there hasn't been indication before that this is how t works, apart from Paul Grayson who was also pumped full or Red Sand at the time.

I like the idea of the theory, and if it wasn't constrained by the endings it could work. As it is, it is having to work around stuff like the Catalyst child and all the scenes of the Crucible activating and the Normandy crashing etc. If none of this stuff was here, the IT could be much better. If the scenes of Shepard arriving on the Citadel were actually happening for example, but you could hear Reaper voices in your mind and your visions was starting to swim, it would be much more convincing than Shepard simply being in the normal world one moment and then suddenly being in a dream world.

The IT would be much more plausible if it wasn't bound by the constraints of the current endings. If Bioware was to write entirely new endings, the IT could work really well and I'd support it. However, it just seems far too unlikely to me that it is actually true atm.

[Aduro]

MassEffected555 wrote...

See that's an idea right there. Shep has to do nothing, the war assets do it. But who opens the Citadel so we can dock the Crucible or do we just not use it and fight the Reapers with the War Assest we got?

I would be perfectly fine with just the war assets, even if it likely has high casualties. The Crucible seemed more like a bit of Deus ex Machine introducted in the third game - though that by itself was ok.

Also, I thought they were already combined before the Cerberus mission. Wasn't there a scene where they combined? Maybe my memory is all fked up XD

[Candidate 88766]

kunzite wrote...

Shepard is the true Catalyst. Just a thought from my own theory.

Not sure how that would work. The Protheans knew of the Catalyst before humanity had even fully developed, so why would Shepard be the Catalsyt?

Plus, it seem to similar to Halo for my tastes - Master Chief being the Reclaimer and all that.

[Jaze55]

LolaLei wrote...

MassEffected555 wrote...

Just what the title says.

What's next? The game specifically states once you are indoctrinated you are permantly. There is no cure. You can't block it - I dont care about books, not everyone read the books the are not cannon to the video games, they are side stories.

OK so according to the video game you can't get rid of indoctrination. So what happens after Shep wakes up? Only think I can think of is Benezia and Saren. They were able to resist if only for a short time and that was for Saren to kill himself and for Benezia to give them some info on Saren. Note that Benezia right back at trying to kill SHep and crew after she gave the info.

So taking that into consideration, what does Shep do next? Save the day in 2 minutes or less and then shoot himself in the face before he is back under Reaper control?

It is also stated that when the Reapers leave after a cycle the people who were indoctrinated and no longer hear the signal from the reapers just stand around and starve to death. The reapers leave and the signal stops, but everyone is still a brain dead vegie.

So please let me know what to expect after the Indoc Theory because it looks pretty bleak to me.  

If I was Bioware and I decided to run with the indoctrination theory then the only way I can see it working would be as follows:

Shepards picks from the control, merge or destroy options - regardless of which option you pick Shepard suddenly wakes up from the attempted indoctrination hallucination (either in the rubble or in a hospital somewhere or whatever) and as far as the player knows Shepard has beaten the indoctrination. You then carry on with your mission to defeat the Reapers. Now, here's where the plot twist kicks in: As you approach the end boss fight/final scenes IF you picked the control or merge option during the hallucination then Harbinger assumes direct control of Shepards body - you then have to play as one of you team members or LI to defeat the indoctinated Shepard. Your chosen squad member deals the fatal blow and you watch as Shepard bleeds out. In his/her last dying breaths Shepard briefly regains control of his/her body to tell the chosen team member/LI how much he/she loves them before dying (I feel this would be a very poignant and heart breaking scene.)

IF however you chose the destroy option Shepard was able to successfully fight off the indoctrination attempt and go on to win a boss fight against Harbinger or whoever/defeat the Reapers once and for all.

... Somewhere amongst all that you get to see your war assets in action and your EMS score depends on how successful they are etc.

But what about the Crucible? It's the main plot in the game getting it built. So we can't ignore it. Who opens the arms of the Citadel and how do they get there?

Do they recycle the scene of Shep making his way to the beam? We say that already I don't think people want to see it again, so whats the deal with the Crucible and opening of the Citadels arms? They HAVE to use the Crucible you simply can't ignore that large of a plot device.

[Thorn Harvestar]

MassEffected555 wrote...

Yeah but off that easter egg ending like I said Shepard looks in no shape to be moving or fighting. And someone still has to get to the Citadel to dock the Crucible. There is NO way you can have an end and just ignore the crucible since its pretty much the point of the game getting it built.

I agree that the Crucible has to be involved somehow. Either as a Reaper-planned trap or true weapon.

As for Shepard's shape, it's probably just as bad as it appeared in the ending we got IMO. When he first got up that is.

[ArkkAngel007]

MassEffected555 wrote...

kunzite wrote...

MassEffected555 wrote...

kunzite wrote...

So,,,clarify this for me everyone, cuz I'm kinda lost following all this.

Is the Indoc Theory saying that all three options of the ending are part of the attempted indoctrination process, and none of it actually happens? I can buy that, really. Either you die in Harbinger's blast, and the vision is the last one you have, kind of getting your peace (though screwing the rest of the galaxy). Or you wake up (the destruction ending) and the real ending begins.


Is that what people mean?

Pretty sure thats what they mean

Then...I have another question. If it is all a dream/hallucination, and the Destroy option breaks the indoc attempt and you wake up in reality.....why does the destruct choice still show all the stuff with the Normandy crashing and the Reapers falling over in London? If you choose Destroy and wake up in the rubble....none of those images make sense, if they didnt happen.

Because it's actually the real ending of the game. Half (or more it seems) seem to think that Bioware is trolling us and held back the ending, if you can belive that.

The other half, who I have zero problems with, want to use it as a way to allow Bioware to simply continue the game and give BW the opportunity to fix the mess of an ending

See I DO get the theory.

No, you don't.

To answer the original question, Harbringer's laser greatly compromises Shepard.  The combination of shock from physical trauma and unconsiousness (one can argue the PTSD compromises Shepard's mind) allows Harbringer to attempt indoctrination on Shepard once the initial wave of Hammer is eradicated.  Shepard's choices result, from as much as can be gathered, that Control and Sythesis lead to Shepard being indoctrinated, and that Destroy with the proper EMS leads to Shepard resisting the final attempt and waking up wounded in London.

Throughout the indoctrination attempt through Shepard's unconsciousness, Shepard's mind offers imagery based on past experiences, both in dialogue, locations, and events.  This holds true to the conclusion of Shepard's choice.  Shepard witnesses the result of the Crucible and the fate of Earth, and the fate of the Normandy and crew, all based on past information.  It's Shepard's mind providing closure, which is ironic considering the complaints about the endings.  Everything after Harbringer's physical attack and before the scene of Shepard awaking in the rubble is a part of the show.  

[Jaze55]

Aduro wrote...

MassEffected555 wrote...

See that's an idea right there. Shep has to do nothing, the war assets do it. But who opens the Citadel so we can dock the Crucible or do we just not use it and fight the Reapers with the War Assest we got?

I would be perfectly fine with just the war assets, even if it likely has high casualties. The Crucible seemed more like a bit of Deus ex Machine introducted in the third game - though that by itself was ok.

Also, I thought they were already combined before the Cerberus mission. Wasn't there a scene where they combined? Maybe my memory is all fked up XD

No they can't dock the Crucible until AFTER Shep goes into the beam, fights TIM and opens the arms. That's when it gets docked. According to the theory that doesn't happen so the Crucible does in fact still need to be docked from the point the indoc theory ends. 

[Aduro]

MassEffected555 wrote...

But what about the Crucible? It's the main plot in the game getting it built. So we can't ignore it. Who opens the arms of the Citadel and how do they get there?

Again, we could have just about anyone do it. Remaining squad mates, Anderson, secondary characters.