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What happens AFTER indoc theory


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#126
Jaze55

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Ariq wrote...

MassEffected555 wrote...

Really I am wrong. That's funny because this says I am not:


Yes, you are wrong. Did you even read what you quoted? Above, you said that there has never been anyone cured of Indoctrination. But the wiki link you cite specifically says Shiala was cured. So which is it? Your original argument was "no one". Now it's 'only one person'? Which is it? There's no cure, or there's only one known cure? Is it that no one has ever resisted, or only a few select cases have resisted? To repeat your quote:

The game specifically states once you are indoctrinated you are permantly. There is no cure.


But Shiala was cured. You even quote the relevant section. Your quote contradicts your assertion.

Shiala is the only individual who has managed to completely overcome Sovereign's indoctrination


She was unique, but she was cured. You see, Shepard is also a unique individual. He has a unique will; that's a line repeated throughout the games. He has been exposed to more direct Prothean intervention (well, except for Javik). If Shiala can be the unique example of breaking free, if Saren can be the unique example of someone requiring implants to complete Indoctrination, then Shepard can be the one who walks away from it. Harbinger never gets the chance to implant Reaper tech into Shepard's brain, maybe that would be sufficient to push him over to Saren territory. We don't know. But we have every reason to believe that if anyone can resist, it would be Shepard.


I assume you didn't read this part of what I quoted:

Shiala also mentions that she feels as though she is still indoctrinated, as she can feel the Reapers' influence in her mind. However, she says that this is overridden by her connections to the other colonists. 

NOT CURED. Only able to resist because she is mind linked with the rest of the colony,

Gratz on failing to read somethng provided to you. 

#127
Serlith_

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Okay. To put it simple.
The Indoctrination Theory is, as of now, probably the best way of explaining WTF the ending was.
It evolved from a belief, that (given the proofs that have been spotted in the last 10 minutes) everything after Shep's hit by Harby's beam is an indoctrination. Then it kinda... grew.

In fact, the Indoctrination theory is only means of explaining WHY Shep's seeing these things while unconscious. As a matter of fact, it is also only a theory, albeit with a very big probability.

EDIT: Ninja'd big time.

Modifié par Serlith_, 20 mars 2012 - 06:28 .


#128
ArkkAngel007

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MassEffected555 wrote...

ArkkAngel007 wrote...

MassEffected555 wrote...


Bro I hate to say this to you but here is the deal. You went out of your way to tell me in an earlier post in this thread - "It's not our job to write future DLC" but here you are pretty much doing that and telling people how it works. Then you once again say "any ending we think of would be fan fiction" yet here you are using fan fiction to prove a point.

I really can't take anything you say seriously anymore because you are a walking contridiction. All people need to do is look at the 2 posts I quoted to see that. Sorry man I really am but that is my honest opinion and I just simply can't take anything you say as serious now. 


How was it a contradiction?  It didn't change the events, it doesn't require future DLC.  It's a different perspective of the ending.  Nothing was added or taken away.  What I said was in no way fan fiction.  I also made it clear that those were possiblities, as it's a theory, and not fact.

Stop twisiting my words to brush off the fact that you gave incorrect information regarding the theory.  Which was all that I was doing.  I'm not the mastermind behind the theory, just the messenger.

I'm all up for having a healthy debate, and I've shared with some of your concerns including the primary one, but you're continuing to carry on in a way that is contrary to how you want people to perceive you.




If you explain to me how you saying" It's not our job to write future DLC" yet you make posts called PROOF INDOC THEORY IS TRUE and fight for it how exactly are you not writing future DLC for them?

Then in another post you tell me "if we write the ending it will be fan fiction" yet you use this FAN FICTION theory as something for them to use makes any sense, I will apoligize and be happy to continue discussing this with you.

But what you said seems like a contradiction to me and it's hard for me to take you seriously. I don't mean that to be rude or offensice, I am just confused by your reasoning that is all. 


I said Indoctrination Theory is true?  Really now...I don't believe I've said that or even alluded to that opinion.  My personal opinion?  Nothing is true until BioWare says anything, whether on their own or through fan actions.  This is just what lined up with my reaction to see the Illusive Man's eyes on my Shepard in Synthesis.  

Nothing about the theory is fan fiction.  It's only a perception.  Yes, there are people who go out and stretch things and get carried away.  I understand that and don't approve of it, but I can only correct where I can, and there are parts of the theory that many feel it's a foundation that I don't agree with, where all I can do is voice a counter-opinion on why that "evidence" doesn't work.

However, I'm not doing anything like that.  I'm only correcting incorrect information on the theory, voicing my counters on aspects I don't agree with in the theory, and answering the questions presented to hopefully get IT to be understood.  I don't care if people believe it or not, that's their personal business, and I'm not going to force it upon them.

Modifié par ArkkAngel007, 20 mars 2012 - 06:28 .


#129
SolidisusSnake1

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jkflipflopDAO wrote...

MassEffected555 wrote...

N7L4D wrote...

Again it's an indoctrination attempt, stop changing words, shep is only indoctrinated if she picks synthesis or control


They don't attempt they just indoctrinate you. Show me proof that they ever attempted and failed to indoctrinate someone and I will agree with you no problem.

Oh but the books don't count. Don't forget that. Not everyone read the books so they are not cannon to the video games. 


Just because you didn't read them doesn't mean they aren't canon. Your ignorance doesn't shape the law.


What he said the books are all canon (except for maybe the last one), also I would assume that if the Reapers are destroyed a person could no longer be controleld by them.

#130
Jaze55

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LolaLei wrote...

MassEffected555 wrote...

LolaLei wrote...

MassEffected555 wrote...

Just what the title says.

What's next? The game specifically states once you are indoctrinated you are permantly. There is no cure. You can't block it - I dont care about books, not everyone read the books the are not cannon to the video games, they are side stories.

OK so according to the video game you can't get rid of indoctrination. So what happens after Shep wakes up? Only think I can think of is Benezia and Saren. They were able to resist if only for a short time and that was for Saren to kill himself and for Benezia to give them some info on Saren. Note that Benezia right back at trying to kill SHep and crew after she gave the info.

So taking that into consideration, what does Shep do next? Save the day in 2 minutes or less and then shoot himself in the face before he is back under Reaper control?

It is also stated that when the Reapers leave after a cycle the people who were indoctrinated and no longer hear the signal from the reapers just stand around and starve to death. The reapers leave and the signal stops, but everyone is still a brain dead vegie.

So please let me know what to expect after the Indoc Theory because it looks pretty bleak to me.  



If I was Bioware and I decided to run with the indoctrination theory then the only way I can see it working would be as follows:

Shepards picks from the control, merge or destroy options - regardless of which option you pick Shepard suddenly wakes up from the attempted indoctrination hallucination (either in the rubble or in a hospital somewhere or whatever) and as far as the player knows Shepard has beaten the indoctrination. You then carry on with your mission to defeat the Reapers. Now, here's where the plot twist kicks in: As you approach the end boss fight/final scenes IF you picked the control or merge option during the hallucination then Harbinger assumes direct control of Shepards body - you then have to play as one of you team members or LI to defeat the indoctinated Shepard. Your chosen squad member deals the fatal blow and you watch as Shepard bleeds out. In his/her last dying breaths Shepard briefly regains control of his/her body to tell the chosen team member/LI how much he/she loves them before dying (I feel this would be a very poignant and heart breaking scene.)

IF however you chose the destroy option Shepard was able to successfully fight off the indoctrination attempt and go on to win a boss fight against Harbinger or whoever/defeat the Reapers once and for all.

... Somewhere amongst all that you get to see your war assets in action and your EMS score depends on how successful they are etc.


But what about the Crucible? It's the main plot in the game getting it built. So we can't ignore it. Who opens the arms of the Citadel and how do they get there?

Do they recycle the scene of Shep making his way to the beam? We say that already I don't think people want to see it again, so whats the deal with the Crucible and opening of the Citadels arms? They HAVE to use the Crucible you simply can't ignore that large of a plot device.


Good point, I forgot about that!

I guess the final scenes would still need to be in the Citadel. Soooo Shepard and his/her crew would still have to some how make their way into the beam (perhaps thats where your war assets come into play, having cut scenes of them clearing the path for Shepard.) Shepard and co make it into the Citadel for real this time, where they have to fight through a few waves of monsters to get to the control panel or whatever. That's where the indoctrination thing can kick in and plays out as I described above. Then either the LI gets the crucible to work (after Shepard dies) and sacrifices himself because he/she can't bare to live without Shepard OR Shepard in his last moments regains enough control to set the crucible off himself, buying his team mates enough time to get the hell out of their before they blow up. IF Shepard picked the destroy option during the hallucination/indoctrination attempt and successfully beats indoctrination then they signal to joker for him to come and get them out of their - you then have a time limit in which to get out of there alive. IF your EMS is high enough then everyone escapes, if not some or all of your team mates die.

Better?


I only read to the part where you said " 
Soooo Shepard and his/her crew would still have to some how make their way into the beam (perhaps thats where your war assets come into play, having cut scenes of them clearing the path for Shepard.)"

BECASUSE - the theory says indoc happens after Shep is hit by the beam. Everyone else died from the beam so Shepard is alone, no crew to help him. Or are you saying the come to the rescue after Shep gets hit by the beam? 

Ok read the rest but still the above part. 

#131
Yubz

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Ariq wrote...

She was unique, but she was cured. You see, Shepard is also a unique individual. He has a unique will; that's a line repeated throughout the games. He has been exposed to more direct Prothean intervention (well, except for Javik). If Shiala can be the unique example of breaking free, if Saren can be the unique example of someone requiring implants to complete Indoctrination, then Shepard can be the one who walks away from it. Harbinger never gets the chance to implant Reaper tech into Shepard's brain, maybe that would be sufficient to push him over to Saren territory. We don't know. But we have every reason to believe that if anyone can resist, it would be Shepard.


The Illusive Man also manages to resist the Indoctrination for a moment (shoots himself). 

#132
Jaze55

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SolidisusSnake1 wrote...

jkflipflopDAO wrote...

MassEffected555 wrote...

N7L4D wrote...

Again it's an indoctrination attempt, stop changing words, shep is only indoctrinated if she picks synthesis or control


They don't attempt they just indoctrinate you. Show me proof that they ever attempted and failed to indoctrinate someone and I will agree with you no problem.

Oh but the books don't count. Don't forget that. Not everyone read the books so they are not cannon to the video games. 


Just because you didn't read them doesn't mean they aren't canon. Your ignorance doesn't shape the law.


What he said the books are all canon (except for maybe the last one), also I would assume that if the Reapers are destroyed a person could no longer be controleld by them.


My problem with the Reapers die indoc stops is because of this:
 But the Reapers viewed them as disposable. When they disappeared back through the Citadel relay, the Reapers abandoned their indoctrinated slaves, leaving them to starve or die of exposure. 

We can assume since they go into hibernation in dark space that the signal stops, yet people are still affected by indoctrination and they starve to death. I know dead reaper isnt a hibernating reaper but its leave to much to assumption. 

#133
SolidisusSnake1

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MassEffected555 wrote...

SolidisusSnake1 wrote...

jkflipflopDAO wrote...

MassEffected555 wrote...

N7L4D wrote...

Again it's an indoctrination attempt, stop changing words, shep is only indoctrinated if she picks synthesis or control


They don't attempt they just indoctrinate you. Show me proof that they ever attempted and failed to indoctrinate someone and I will agree with you no problem.

Oh but the books don't count. Don't forget that. Not everyone read the books so they are not cannon to the video games. 


Just because you didn't read them doesn't mean they aren't canon. Your ignorance doesn't shape the law.


What he said the books are all canon (except for maybe the last one), also I would assume that if the Reapers are destroyed a person could no longer be controleld by them.


My problem with the Reapers die indoc stops is because of this:
[color=rgb(255, 255, 255)"> ] relay, the Reapers abandoned their indoctrinated slaves, leaving them to starve or die of exposure.[/color] 

We can assume since they go into hibernation in dark space that the signal stops, yet people are still affected by indoctrination and they starve to death. I know dead reaper isnt a hibernating reaper but its leave to much to assumption. 


You said it yourself a dead Reaper is not a "hibernating" Reaper, plus Sovereign was active the entire time so...

#134
Jaze55

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SolidisusSnake1 wrote...

MassEffected555 wrote...

SolidisusSnake1 wrote...

jkflipflopDAO wrote...

MassEffected555 wrote...

N7L4D wrote...

Again it's an indoctrination attempt, stop changing words, shep is only indoctrinated if she picks synthesis or control


They don't attempt they just indoctrinate you. Show me proof that they ever attempted and failed to indoctrinate someone and I will agree with you no problem.

Oh but the books don't count. Don't forget that. Not everyone read the books so they are not cannon to the video games. 


Just because you didn't read them doesn't mean they aren't canon. Your ignorance doesn't shape the law.


What he said the books are all canon (except for maybe the last one), also I would assume that if the Reapers are destroyed a person could no longer be controleld by them.


My problem with the Reapers die indoc stops is because of this:
[color=rgb(255, 255, 255)"> ] relay, the Reapers abandoned their indoctrinated slaves, leaving them to starve or die of exposure.[/color] 

We can assume since they go into hibernation in dark space that the signal stops, yet people are still affected by indoctrination and they starve to death. I know dead reaper isnt a hibernating reaper but its leave to much to assumption. 


You said it yourself a dead Reaper is not a "hibernating" Reaper, plus Sovereign was active the entire time so...


And then I remembered the  dead derilict reaper from ME2. Dead but still indoctinating people. Then there is also the fact the little pieces of a reaper, or reaper artifacts, can still indoctrinate people so I guess thats out the window. 

#135
Ariq

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MassEffected555 wrote...
 also mentions that she feels as though she is still indoctrinated, as she can feel the Reapers' influence in her mind. However, she says that this is overridden by her connections to the other colonists. 

NOT CURED. Only able to resist because she is mind linked with the rest of the colony,

Gratz on failing to read somethng provided to you. 


Well, I notice you continue to refuse to acknowledge that Shiala presents an exception to your absolute rule. You continue to fail to respond to the necessity of implanting Saren with Reaper tech to complete his Indoctrination. And you've ignored that I specified in my first reply that there's no assumption that Shepard walks away from this in perfect condition. Nor have you addressed that Shepard has already successfully rejected direct Reaper Indoctrination: See ME: Arrival (or do you believe he was Indoctrination the entirity of ME3?) If you want to address those issues, fine. If you'd rather continue ignoring them? *shrug*

#136
LolaLei

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MassEffected555 wrote...

LolaLei wrote...

MassEffected555 wrote...

LolaLei wrote...

MassEffected555 wrote...

Just what the title says.

What's next? The game specifically states once you are indoctrinated you are permantly. There is no cure. You can't block it - I dont care about books, not everyone read the books the are not cannon to the video games, they are side stories.

OK so according to the video game you can't get rid of indoctrination. So what happens after Shep wakes up? Only think I can think of is Benezia and Saren. They were able to resist if only for a short time and that was for Saren to kill himself and for Benezia to give them some info on Saren. Note that Benezia right back at trying to kill SHep and crew after she gave the info.

So taking that into consideration, what does Shep do next? Save the day in 2 minutes or less and then shoot himself in the face before he is back under Reaper control?

It is also stated that when the Reapers leave after a cycle the people who were indoctrinated and no longer hear the signal from the reapers just stand around and starve to death. The reapers leave and the signal stops, but everyone is still a brain dead vegie.

So please let me know what to expect after the Indoc Theory because it looks pretty bleak to me.  



If I was Bioware and I decided to run with the indoctrination theory then the only way I can see it working would be as follows:

Shepards picks from the control, merge or destroy options - regardless of which option you pick Shepard suddenly wakes up from the attempted indoctrination hallucination (either in the rubble or in a hospital somewhere or whatever) and as far as the player knows Shepard has beaten the indoctrination. You then carry on with your mission to defeat the Reapers. Now, here's where the plot twist kicks in: As you approach the end boss fight/final scenes IF you picked the control or merge option during the hallucination then Harbinger assumes direct control of Shepards body - you then have to play as one of you team members or LI to defeat the indoctinated Shepard. Your chosen squad member deals the fatal blow and you watch as Shepard bleeds out. In his/her last dying breaths Shepard briefly regains control of his/her body to tell the chosen team member/LI how much he/she loves them before dying (I feel this would be a very poignant and heart breaking scene.)

IF however you chose the destroy option Shepard was able to successfully fight off the indoctrination attempt and go on to win a boss fight against Harbinger or whoever/defeat the Reapers once and for all.

... Somewhere amongst all that you get to see your war assets in action and your EMS score depends on how successful they are etc.


But what about the Crucible? It's the main plot in the game getting it built. So we can't ignore it. Who opens the arms of the Citadel and how do they get there?

Do they recycle the scene of Shep making his way to the beam? We say that already I don't think people want to see it again, so whats the deal with the Crucible and opening of the Citadels arms? They HAVE to use the Crucible you simply can't ignore that large of a plot device.


Good point, I forgot about that!

I guess the final scenes would still need to be in the Citadel. Soooo Shepard and his/her crew would still have to some how make their way into the beam (perhaps thats where your war assets come into play, having cut scenes of them clearing the path for Shepard.) Shepard and co make it into the Citadel for real this time, where they have to fight through a few waves of monsters to get to the control panel or whatever. That's where the indoctrination thing can kick in and plays out as I described above. Then either the LI gets the crucible to work (after Shepard dies) and sacrifices himself because he/she can't bare to live without Shepard OR Shepard in his last moments regains enough control to set the crucible off himself, buying his team mates enough time to get the hell out of their before they blow up. IF Shepard picked the destroy option during the hallucination/indoctrination attempt and successfully beats indoctrination then they signal to joker for him to come and get them out of their - you then have a time limit in which to get out of there alive. IF your EMS is high enough then everyone escapes, if not some or all of your team mates die.

Better?


I only read to the part where you said " 
Soooo Shepard and his/her crew would still have to some how make their way into the beam (perhaps thats where your war assets come into play, having cut scenes of them clearing the path for Shepard.)"

BECASUSE - the theory says indoc happens after Shep is hit by the beam. Everyone else died from the beam so Shepard is alone, no crew to help him. Or are you saying the come to the rescue after Shep gets hit by the beam? 

Ok read the rest but still the above part. 


Well we aren't sure if the beam definitely hit your other two team members, in some games you can clearly see them lying on the ground bleeding out but in others you don't (when I done my play through neither of my team mates were anywhere to be seen.)

On that basis alone I was working from the idea that when you first get hit by the beam everything after that is "a dream" so it's possible that your team mates were just knocked unconcious and eventually gain conciousness again to pull Shepard out of the rubble. Then again it could be that both your team members are dead but the rest of your squad step in to help. Maybe depending on your EMS the two team mates that got hit by the beam could either survive or die.

#137
bwFex

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 To copy/paste from the compilation thread over on reddit:
We know of at least one confirmed case of an organic reversing the effects of indoctrination: Shiala.

She fell under Sovereign's indoctrination, but was traded to the Thorian in exchange for knowledge of the Cipher. It is not clearly explained how, but Sovereign's indoctrination was supplanted by the Thorian's unique control mechanism (which bears a lot of similarities and serves as a useful, if not perfectly transferrable, analogue to indoctrination).

When the Thorian was killed, Shiala was set free of its control, leaving her in charge of her own actions. In fact, Shiala and the other released thralls on Feros were able to use the remaining traces of the Thorian's "indoctrination" to enhance their own communications, turning a ragtag group of militia into a powerful military force capable of fighting against the Reaper threat.

Shiala seems to acknowledge that there are still traces of her indoctrination present, as she can feel the Reapers' influence in her mind, but that she is able to wholly resist these influences because of her Thorian-given connection to the other colonists.

We also know of at least one case of an organic being resisting Reaper indoctrination with almost perfect results: the Rachni Queen.

We know that it is not simply a biological immunity, as her spawn are easily indoctrinated by the Reapers, and other queens appear to have been indoctrinated during the Rachni Wars. But for unexplained reasons (presumably, the tremendous amount of mental fortitude required to manage a hivemind as the only living queen), this particular Rachni Queen resisted Reaper indoctrination so perfectly that the Reapers resorted to physical restraints.

Last but not least, most indoctrination theorists believe that Shepard only becomes fully indoctrinated if he picks the blue or green options during the indoctrination attempt. Otherwise, he is never fully indoctrinated. Picking the red option illustrates Shepard's mind overcoming the temptation/lies that Harbinger is trying to feed him, and resisting the indoctrination.

#138
KelaSaar

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Personally, I never saw Shepard as being indoctrinated unless you choose the blue or green ending. I saw the whole thing as an attempt at indoctrination by Harbinger, sort of a last temptation sort of thing. If you go along with it you are fully indoctrinated, but if you reject it, the attempt fails, meaning you have never actually been fully indoctrinated. Then you wake up, kick ass with your squad and maybe take down some avatar of harbinger or something, use the crucible, and save the day.

#139
Jaze55

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Ariq wrote...

MassEffected555 wrote...
 also mentions that she feels as though she is still indoctrinated, as she can feel the Reapers' influence in her mind. However, she says that this is overridden by her connections to the other colonists. 

NOT CURED. Only able to resist because she is mind linked with the rest of the colony,

Gratz on failing to read somethng provided to you. 


Well, I notice you continue to refuse to acknowledge that Shiala presents an exception to your absolute rule. You continue to fail to respond to the necessity of implanting Saren with Reaper tech to complete his Indoctrination. And you've ignored that I specified in my first reply that there's no assumption that Shepard walks away from this in perfect condition. Nor have you addressed that Shepard has already successfully rejected direct Reaper Indoctrination: See ME: Arrival (or do you believe he was Indoctrination the entirity of ME3?) If you want to address those issues, fine. If you'd rather continue ignoring them? *shrug*


I don't need to adress those points though because the theory says Shep is indoctrinated and he doesn't have the Thorium side affect since he was never under it's control. 

Saren only had the tech implanted because Sovy didn't exert enough control on purpose so Saren still had free will and would be a better agent. Explained in ME 1 by Saren himself.

So what is it? Shepard, after getting his ass kicked enough to be knocked out for 2 days can deny indoc, but he can't when he gets his ass kicked by the beam from Harby?

No thats not a plot hole in itself right there. Both cases Shep has his ass kicked, is in a fight so he is full of adrenaline yet for TWO days while his is unconsiouse right next to a reaper artifact he is able to resist but he can't for for your theory?

Now you are making me go right back to where I think the theory is full of crap completely. 

#140
evil m0nk3y 64

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im pretty sure the indoc theory is shepard battle in his mind with the harbinger to stop him getting indoctrinated, and he shakes it off if you choose he destroy option with a high enough EMS

#141
SolidisusSnake1

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MassEffected555 wrote...

SolidisusSnake1 wrote...

MassEffected555 wrote...

SolidisusSnake1 wrote...

jkflipflopDAO wrote...

MassEffected555 wrote...

N7L4D wrote...

Again it's an indoctrination attempt, stop changing words, shep is only indoctrinated if she picks synthesis or control


They don't attempt they just indoctrinate you. Show me proof that they ever attempted and failed to indoctrinate someone and I will agree with you no problem.

Oh but the books don't count. Don't forget that. Not everyone read the books so they are not cannon to the video games. 


Just because you didn't read them doesn't mean they aren't canon. Your ignorance doesn't shape the law.


What he said the books are all canon (except for maybe the last one), also I would assume that if the Reapers are destroyed a person could no longer be controleld by them.


My problem with the Reapers die indoc stops is because of this:
[color=rgb(255, 255, 255)"> ] relay, the Reapers abandoned their indoctrinated slaves, leaving them to starve or die of exposure.[/color] 

We can assume since they go into hibernation in dark space that the signal stops, yet people are still affected by indoctrination and they starve to death. I know dead reaper isnt a hibernating reaper but its leave to much to assumption. 


You said it yourself a dead Reaper is not a "hibernating" Reaper, plus Sovereign was active the entire time so...


And then I remembered the  dead derilict reaper from ME2. Dead but still indoctinating people. Then there is also the fact the little pieces of a reaper, or reaper artifacts, can still indoctrinate people so I guess thats out the window. 


Now I'm not supporting the Indoc. theory here in fact given everything I think it is BS, HOWEVER I believe the counter-argument is that the Derelict Reaper was not "dead". Remember it still had power, ME shields, and what not like the scientists said "The God is dead but it still dreams".

Thus I would assume that if the Crucible actually destroyed the Reapers it would be different than simply disabling one, but in fact complete destruction leaving no room for it to broadcast its signals.

#142
MissMaster_2

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I like to think that what ever happened in Shep's mind had an effect on the physical world. IDK.


Something-something-something she has the cypher- something. She is the perfect mix of synthetic and organic.

And she's a Mary Sue. derp.

Modifié par MissMaster_2, 20 mars 2012 - 06:43 .


#143
Jaze55

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bwFex wrote...

 To copy/paste from the compilation thread over on reddit:
We know of at least one confirmed case of an organic reversing the effects of indoctrination: Shiala.

She fell under Sovereign's indoctrination, but was traded to the Thorian in exchange for knowledge of the Cipher. It is not clearly explained how, but Sovereign's indoctrination was supplanted by the Thorian's unique control mechanism (which bears a lot of similarities and serves as a useful, if not perfectly transferrable, analogue to indoctrination).

When the Thorian was killed, Shiala was set free of its control, leaving her in charge of her own actions. In fact, Shiala and the other released thralls on Feros were able to use the remaining traces of the Thorian's "indoctrination" to enhance their own communications, turning a ragtag group of militia into a powerful military force capable of fighting against the Reaper threat.

Shiala seems to acknowledge that there are still traces of her indoctrination present, as she can feel the Reapers' influence in her mind, but that she is able to wholly resist these influences because of her Thorian-given connection to the other colonists.

We also know of at least one case of an organic being resisting Reaper indoctrination with almost perfect results: the Rachni Queen.

We know that it is not simply a biological immunity, as her spawn are easily indoctrinated by the Reapers, and other queens appear to have been indoctrinated during the Rachni Wars. But for unexplained reasons (presumably, the tremendous amount of mental fortitude required to manage a hivemind as the only living queen), this particular Rachni Queen resisted Reaper indoctrination so perfectly that the Reapers resorted to physical restraints.

Last but not least, most indoctrination theorists believe that Shepard only becomes fully indoctrinated if he picks the blue or green options during the indoctrination attempt. Otherwise, he is never fully indoctrinated. Picking the red option illustrates Shepard's mind overcoming the temptation/lies that Harbinger is trying to feed him, and resisting the indoctrination.


Keep using Shiala it makes your theory less credible. She was only able to resist becayse the Thorium indoctrinated her and linked her mind to the colony. Google "Shiala" and read the entire Wiki on her, it explains it there.
Shepard does not have that happen to him. Its an 1 time case because of the Thorium. 

And there is no FULLY or HALF indoctrinated. You are just indoctrinated. Like Saren, not full control but no matter how you look at it someone who is indoctrinated is indoctrinated.

I am still going with the theory but Shep is in a world of trouble after the theory ends. 

EDIT- Yes the Rachni queen, that is the one thing I have nothing to say about. They really didn't explain that at all and that's more sloppy writing. 

Modifié par MassEffected555, 20 mars 2012 - 06:44 .


#144
Dr_Hello

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@OP

Shepard is sent to a mental hospital and retires happily ever after...

OR simply, after defeating the indoctrination and awakening in the rubble, he resumes the fight...

Modifié par Dr_Hello, 20 mars 2012 - 06:45 .


#145
Jaze55

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Dr_Hello wrote...

@OP

Shepard is sent to a mental hospital and retires happily ever after


Yeah that's one out of a very limited outcome I can think of that would make any sense. Is that better then what we got though? 

#146
jedsithor

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What I'd like to see happen is for the ending to play out as it is. Your LI gets out of the crashed Normandy...then turns to the camera and says "Shepard! Shepard get up!" Then BOOM! You're in London. Harbinger is firing his giant laser at you. Your LI is there, dragging you to your feet. Suddenly, the Normandy is there, Joker at the helm, attacking Harbinger, giving you the time you need to reach the Conduit.

If you have an ME2 save with a living Jack and set the students to support roles, they show up and create a barrier around you and your team. A squad of angry Krogan also show up (again, depending on your choices) to clear a path to the Conduit. You and your squad make a run for the Conduit along with any living squad members who were on Earth with you. You reach the Conduit and make it to the Citadel. If you made certain choices, some of your squad and friends will die as you run for the Citadel.

From there it's a straight up fight through the Citadel to reach the Catalyst with you dividing your team up to take on different paths. The way I see it, there's no point in adding DLC for the ending if there isn't going to be any proper gameplay. Fighting your way through the Citadel would fulfill that role.

As you make your way towards the Catalyst, you hear Harbinger taunting you, its taunts being based on the RGB decision you made in the "ending." Unlike most, I wouldn't just have an extended ending be attached to the "Destroy" ending. Nobody should be stuck with basically destroying the galaxy, whatever ending they chose. However the ending you chose would affect what happens in the "real" ending.

When you reach the Catalyst, things would seem eerily familiar. Once again, you'd come face to face with Illusive Man. You can even make him shoot himself in the head again. Or at least you can try...this time around you hear that immortal line "Assuming Direct Control" and it would no longer be Illusive Man standing before you, but Harbinger. The conversation you have with Harbinger would depend on the choice you made while being indoctrinated. If you managed to convince Illusive Man of his indoctrination the first time around, you can try to get through to him, try to get him to break Harbinger's control over him.

Ultimately, Harbinger makes his case for the continuation of the Reapers, again, the conversation is eerily familiar. But this time Shepard is thinking clearly and is capable of countering Harbinger's argument, again depending on the various choices you've made throughout the games (Quarrian and Geth unification etc).

And here's the kicker - you get the same three choices. Well...variations. "Control" becomes a way to not just control the Reapers, but to make humanity the dominant species. Harbinger promises to share Reaper knowledge and technology and give the human race the power to control the galaxy. If Shepard destroys the Geth, Harbinger will recognise Shepard's ability to halt the AI "menace" and humanity will be tasked with keeping the other races in line, deploying Reapers as they see fit.

Synthesis becomes a situation where the galactic races are all harvested to become Reapers, implying that Harbinger has managed to convince Shepard that the Reapers are necessary and that the cycle has to continue.

Destroy simply means destroying all Reapers and ending the cycle. Not all synthetics are destroyed and the Mass Relays are intact. However Harbinger suggests that if the Reapers are destroyed, the Synthetics will turn on the Organics and wipe them out. In fact "Destroy" isn't really an option that Harbinger presents. It's one you decide for yourself and if you choose it, the Reapers will attack the Crucible in order to prevent it happening. This is where all of your war assets and choices come into play. You can choose to destroy the Reapers and you can fail if you don't have the required assets to hold off the Reapers while the Crucible prepares to fire. You can also succeed but the damage will be so great that the Citadel and Crucible will fall out of the sky, obviously killing Shepard and his squad. Also, Harbinger, in Illusive Man's body, will attack you.

There may even be a scenario where Joker will sacrifice himself to defeat the Harbinger Reaper or maybe even EDI will sacrifice herself for the sake of all lifeforms.

Those final moments will depend entirely on the choices you've made across the trilogy. Who lives and who dies, who comes to your aid and who doesn't. Available weapons and troops, the right people in the right places.

In most of the "Destroy" scenarios, Shepard dies. How he dies depends on how you've played through the games. It's possible to get a happy ending where everyone lives but you have to work hard to get it.

So how does the game actually end?

If you choose to control the Reapers and by extension, the galaxy, the Reapers withdraw from Earth and we see a montage that shows humanity assuming it's new dominant position in the galaxy. Humanity praises Shepard while the rest of the galaxy curses him. Some of your friends, mostly aliens but some humans as well, will abandon you, including your LI (if they would disagree with your decision...Liara, Garrus etc).

If you choose to become a Reaper, you will see a montage of events across the galaxy that show people being harvested, including your friends. More Reapers will jump into the Sol System to take care of the fleet. Earth will be preserved for the next cycle. The game will end 50,000 years in the future with a being from the next cycle discovering Liara's "beacon," implying that it's all about to start again.

If you choose to destroy the Reapers, you can fail and you will see the Reapers being victorious across the galaxy. If you succeed, the Relays will be used to send an energy pulse across the galaxy that destroys them. Reapers fall out of the sky, those people who survive breath a sigh of relief. The Citadel itself may be destroyed, taking Shepard and co with it, or Shepard himself will be the only one to die. In the best ending, Shepard lives.

Whatever Shepard's fate, if you are successful in destroying the Reapers, you will hear Liara's entry about Shepard from her beacon as we see the rebuilding process slowly beginning. We see the fate of Shepard's friends. If Shepard is alive, we see him/her with their LI. If Shepard is dead, we see the LI at his/her grave. Either way, we get a final shot of Earth as the sun sets behind it and we catch a final glimpse of the trademarked Mass Effect horizon line.

#147
Jaze55

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jedsithor wrote...

What I'd like to see happen is for the ending to play out as it is. Your LI gets out of the crashed Normandy...then turns to the camera and says "Shepard! Shepard get up!" Then BOOM! You're in London. Harbinger is firing his giant laser at you. Your LI is there, dragging you to your feet. Suddenly, the Normandy is there, Joker at the helm, attacking Harbinger, giving you the time you need to reach the Conduit.

If you have an ME2 save with a living Jack and set the students to support roles, they show up and create a barrier around you and your team. A squad of angry Krogan also show up (again, depending on your choices) to clear a path to the Conduit. You and your squad make a run for the Conduit along with any living squad members who were on Earth with you. You reach the Conduit and make it to the Citadel. If you made certain choices, some of your squad and friends will die as you run for the Citadel.

From there it's a straight up fight through the Citadel to reach the Catalyst with you dividing your team up to take on different paths. The way I see it, there's no point in adding DLC for the ending if there isn't going to be any proper gameplay. Fighting your way through the Citadel would fulfill that role.

As you make your way towards the Catalyst, you hear Harbinger taunting you, its taunts being based on the RGB decision you made in the "ending." Unlike most, I wouldn't just have an extended ending be attached to the "Destroy" ending. Nobody should be stuck with basically destroying the galaxy, whatever ending they chose. However the ending you chose would affect what happens in the "real" ending.

When you reach the Catalyst, things would seem eerily familiar. Once again, you'd come face to face with Illusive Man. You can even make him shoot himself in the head again. Or at least you can try...this time around you hear that immortal line "Assuming Direct Control" and it would no longer be Illusive Man standing before you, but Harbinger. The conversation you have with Harbinger would depend on the choice you made while being indoctrinated. If you managed to convince Illusive Man of his indoctrination the first time around, you can try to get through to him, try to get him to break Harbinger's control over him.

Ultimately, Harbinger makes his case for the continuation of the Reapers, again, the conversation is eerily familiar. But this time Shepard is thinking clearly and is capable of countering Harbinger's argument, again depending on the various choices you've made throughout the games (Quarrian and Geth unification etc).

And here's the kicker - you get the same three choices. Well...variations. "Control" becomes a way to not just control the Reapers, but to make humanity the dominant species. Harbinger promises to share Reaper knowledge and technology and give the human race the power to control the galaxy. If Shepard destroys the Geth, Harbinger will recognise Shepard's ability to halt the AI "menace" and humanity will be tasked with keeping the other races in line, deploying Reapers as they see fit.

Synthesis becomes a situation where the galactic races are all harvested to become Reapers, implying that Harbinger has managed to convince Shepard that the Reapers are necessary and that the cycle has to continue.

Destroy simply means destroying all Reapers and ending the cycle. Not all synthetics are destroyed and the Mass Relays are intact. However Harbinger suggests that if the Reapers are destroyed, the Synthetics will turn on the Organics and wipe them out. In fact "Destroy" isn't really an option that Harbinger presents. It's one you decide for yourself and if you choose it, the Reapers will attack the Crucible in order to prevent it happening. This is where all of your war assets and choices come into play. You can choose to destroy the Reapers and you can fail if you don't have the required assets to hold off the Reapers while the Crucible prepares to fire. You can also succeed but the damage will be so great that the Citadel and Crucible will fall out of the sky, obviously killing Shepard and his squad. Also, Harbinger, in Illusive Man's body, will attack you.

There may even be a scenario where Joker will sacrifice himself to defeat the Harbinger Reaper or maybe even EDI will sacrifice herself for the sake of all lifeforms.

Those final moments will depend entirely on the choices you've made across the trilogy. Who lives and who dies, who comes to your aid and who doesn't. Available weapons and troops, the right people in the right places.

In most of the "Destroy" scenarios, Shepard dies. How he dies depends on how you've played through the games. It's possible to get a happy ending where everyone lives but you have to work hard to get it.

So how does the game actually end?

If you choose to control the Reapers and by extension, the galaxy, the Reapers withdraw from Earth and we see a montage that shows humanity assuming it's new dominant position in the galaxy. Humanity praises Shepard while the rest of the galaxy curses him. Some of your friends, mostly aliens but some humans as well, will abandon you, including your LI (if they would disagree with your decision...Liara, Garrus etc).

If you choose to become a Reaper, you will see a montage of events across the galaxy that show people being harvested, including your friends. More Reapers will jump into the Sol System to take care of the fleet. Earth will be preserved for the next cycle. The game will end 50,000 years in the future with a being from the next cycle discovering Liara's "beacon," implying that it's all about to start again.

If you choose to destroy the Reapers, you can fail and you will see the Reapers being victorious across the galaxy. If you succeed, the Relays will be used to send an energy pulse across the galaxy that destroys them. Reapers fall out of the sky, those people who survive breath a sigh of relief. The Citadel itself may be destroyed, taking Shepard and co with it, or Shepard himself will be the only one to die. In the best ending, Shepard lives.

Whatever Shepard's fate, if you are successful in destroying the Reapers, you will hear Liara's entry about Shepard from her beacon as we see the rebuilding process slowly beginning. We see the fate of Shepard's friends. If Shepard is alive, we see him/her with their LI. If Shepard is dead, we see the LI at his/her grave. Either way, we get a final shot of Earth as the sun sets behind it and we catch a final glimpse of the trademarked Mass Effect horizon line.


That's pretty good, except, according to the theory, Shep doesn't get indoctrinated till AFTER he get's hit by the beam. You don't see your squad with you, or everyone gets killed by the beam before Shep get's hit so how do you fit that in?

#148
Jaze55

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Dr_Hello wrote...

@OP

Shepard is sent to a mental hospital and retires happily ever after...

OR simply, after defeating the indoctrination and awakening in the rubble, he resumes the fight...


So after getting hit by the big beam of death, Shepard, half dead and terribly wounded AND fighting indoctrination, kills all the reapers and saves the galaxy? Sorry I can't buy that.

#149
thehomeworld

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That's a great question OP that no one has asked yet given the evidence that happens to those indoctrinated souls it means shep really can't function without the reapers or devices like the beacons telling them what to do. The only loop hole I can come up with is A) shep fights off indoctrination or thinks he does but the reapers just make him a sleeper cell so eventually he'll become their pawn again or B) he gets completely cyberized by the geth or EDI jumps into him to sure up his tech to keep him from failing for lack of reaper signals.

We've seen no matter how strong your psyche is you can't fight off indoctrination perminitly and shep being the first would be really off even if you said the beacons + cypher gave him a new signal like the scientist did to the keepers so they could live and no longer accept the reapers signals BW would really have to explain this well and how is it that Feros girl gets out of it as well? She says via email that she feels the reapers signal hears them a calling to her but she also still has the plants signals in her mind too and so long as she is around the Feros civilians she can keep hold of her self and they all continue in their hive drive to protect themselves this suggest one could overcome one indoctrination by being given another but shep would have to be bonded to the Feros gang or the keepers or maybe even live in a zone that has a working prothean artifact to keep him from loosing control either while the reapers are present or him becoming a mindless vegetable after they're dead or gone. Neither lends to a promising worth wild retirement with their LI.

You've now given me one more reason not to like the indoctrination theory people are purposing not only can't I wrap my head around the fight club mechanics here but the end result implications if he did fight off the indoctrination then it won't go well for him either.

Modifié par thehomeworld, 20 mars 2012 - 06:52 .


#150
Dr_Hello

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jedsithor wrote...

What I'd like to see happen is for the ending to play out as it is. Your LI gets out of the crashed Normandy...then turns to the camera and says "Shepard! Shepard get up!" Then BOOM! You're in London. Harbinger is firing his giant laser at you. Your LI is there, dragging you to your feet. Suddenly, the Normandy is there, Joker at the helm, attacking Harbinger, giving you the time you need to reach the Conduit.

If you have an ME2 save with a living Jack and set the students to support roles, they show up and create a barrier around you and your team. A squad of angry Krogan also show up (again, depending on your choices) to clear a path to the Conduit. You and your squad make a run for the Conduit along with any living squad members who were on Earth with you. You reach the Conduit and make it to the Citadel. If you made certain choices, some of your squad and friends will die as you run for the Citadel.

From there it's a straight up fight through the Citadel to reach the Catalyst with you dividing your team up to take on different paths. The way I see it, there's no point in adding DLC for the ending if there isn't going to be any proper gameplay. Fighting your way through the Citadel would fulfill that role.

As you make your way towards the Catalyst, you hear Harbinger taunting you, its taunts being based on the RGB decision you made in the "ending." Unlike most, I wouldn't just have an extended ending be attached to the "Destroy" ending. Nobody should be stuck with basically destroying the galaxy, whatever ending they chose. However the ending you chose would affect what happens in the "real" ending.

When you reach the Catalyst, things would seem eerily familiar. Once again, you'd come face to face with Illusive Man. You can even make him shoot himself in the head again. Or at least you can try...this time around you hear that immortal line "Assuming Direct Control" and it would no longer be Illusive Man standing before you, but Harbinger. The conversation you have with Harbinger would depend on the choice you made while being indoctrinated. If you managed to convince Illusive Man of his indoctrination the first time around, you can try to get through to him, try to get him to break Harbinger's control over him.

Ultimately, Harbinger makes his case for the continuation of the Reapers, again, the conversation is eerily familiar. But this time Shepard is thinking clearly and is capable of countering Harbinger's argument, again depending on the various choices you've made throughout the games (Quarrian and Geth unification etc).

And here's the kicker - you get the same three choices. Well...variations. "Control" becomes a way to not just control the Reapers, but to make humanity the dominant species. Harbinger promises to share Reaper knowledge and technology and give the human race the power to control the galaxy. If Shepard destroys the Geth, Harbinger will recognise Shepard's ability to halt the AI "menace" and humanity will be tasked with keeping the other races in line, deploying Reapers as they see fit.

Synthesis becomes a situation where the galactic races are all harvested to become Reapers, implying that Harbinger has managed to convince Shepard that the Reapers are necessary and that the cycle has to continue.

Destroy simply means destroying all Reapers and ending the cycle. Not all synthetics are destroyed and the Mass Relays are intact. However Harbinger suggests that if the Reapers are destroyed, the Synthetics will turn on the Organics and wipe them out. In fact "Destroy" isn't really an option that Harbinger presents. It's one you decide for yourself and if you choose it, the Reapers will attack the Crucible in order to prevent it happening. This is where all of your war assets and choices come into play. You can choose to destroy the Reapers and you can fail if you don't have the required assets to hold off the Reapers while the Crucible prepares to fire. You can also succeed but the damage will be so great that the Citadel and Crucible will fall out of the sky, obviously killing Shepard and his squad. Also, Harbinger, in Illusive Man's body, will attack you.

There may even be a scenario where Joker will sacrifice himself to defeat the Harbinger Reaper or maybe even EDI will sacrifice herself for the sake of all lifeforms.

Those final moments will depend entirely on the choices you've made across the trilogy. Who lives and who dies, who comes to your aid and who doesn't. Available weapons and troops, the right people in the right places.

In most of the "Destroy" scenarios, Shepard dies. How he dies depends on how you've played through the games. It's possible to get a happy ending where everyone lives but you have to work hard to get it.

So how does the game actually end?

If you choose to control the Reapers and by extension, the galaxy, the Reapers withdraw from Earth and we see a montage that shows humanity assuming it's new dominant position in the galaxy. Humanity praises Shepard while the rest of the galaxy curses him. Some of your friends, mostly aliens but some humans as well, will abandon you, including your LI (if they would disagree with your decision...Liara, Garrus etc).

If you choose to become a Reaper, you will see a montage of events across the galaxy that show people being harvested, including your friends. More Reapers will jump into the Sol System to take care of the fleet. Earth will be preserved for the next cycle. The game will end 50,000 years in the future with a being from the next cycle discovering Liara's "beacon," implying that it's all about to start again.

If you choose to destroy the Reapers, you can fail and you will see the Reapers being victorious across the galaxy. If you succeed, the Relays will be used to send an energy pulse across the galaxy that destroys them. Reapers fall out of the sky, those people who survive breath a sigh of relief. The Citadel itself may be destroyed, taking Shepard and co with it, or Shepard himself will be the only one to die. In the best ending, Shepard lives.

Whatever Shepard's fate, if you are successful in destroying the Reapers, you will hear Liara's entry about Shepard from her beacon as we see the rebuilding process slowly beginning. We see the fate of Shepard's friends. If Shepard is alive, we see him/her with their LI. If Shepard is dead, we see the LI at his/her grave. Either way, we get a final shot of Earth as the sun sets behind it and we catch a final glimpse of the trademarked Mass Effect horizon line.


Interesting idea for the DLC. I wouldn't redo the 3 choices though. The rest should good. Nicely thought out.