463 réponses à ce sujet

[Jaze55]

Dr_Hello wrote...

jedsithor wrote...

What I'd like to see happen is for the ending to play out as it is. Your LI gets out of the crashed Normandy...then turns to the camera and says "Shepard! Shepard get up!" Then BOOM! You're in London. Harbinger is firing his giant laser at you. Your LI is there, dragging you to your feet. Suddenly, the Normandy is there, Joker at the helm, attacking Harbinger, giving you the time you need to reach the Conduit.

If you have an ME2 save with a living Jack and set the students to support roles, they show up and create a barrier around you and your team. A squad of angry Krogan also show up (again, depending on your choices) to clear a path to the Conduit. You and your squad make a run for the Conduit along with any living squad members who were on Earth with you. You reach the Conduit and make it to the Citadel. If you made certain choices, some of your squad and friends will die as you run for the Citadel.

From there it's a straight up fight through the Citadel to reach the Catalyst with you dividing your team up to take on different paths. The way I see it, there's no point in adding DLC for the ending if there isn't going to be any proper gameplay. Fighting your way through the Citadel would fulfill that role.

As you make your way towards the Catalyst, you hear Harbinger taunting you, its taunts being based on the RGB decision you made in the "ending." Unlike most, I wouldn't just have an extended ending be attached to the "Destroy" ending. Nobody should be stuck with basically destroying the galaxy, whatever ending they chose. However the ending you chose would affect what happens in the "real" ending.

When you reach the Catalyst, things would seem eerily familiar. Once again, you'd come face to face with Illusive Man. You can even make him shoot himself in the head again. Or at least you can try...this time around you hear that immortal line "Assuming Direct Control" and it would no longer be Illusive Man standing before you, but Harbinger. The conversation you have with Harbinger would depend on the choice you made while being indoctrinated. If you managed to convince Illusive Man of his indoctrination the first time around, you can try to get through to him, try to get him to break Harbinger's control over him.

Ultimately, Harbinger makes his case for the continuation of the Reapers, again, the conversation is eerily familiar. But this time Shepard is thinking clearly and is capable of countering Harbinger's argument, again depending on the various choices you've made throughout the games (Quarrian and Geth unification etc).

And here's the kicker - you get the same three choices. Well...variations. "Control" becomes a way to not just control the Reapers, but to make humanity the dominant species. Harbinger promises to share Reaper knowledge and technology and give the human race the power to control the galaxy. If Shepard destroys the Geth, Harbinger will recognise Shepard's ability to halt the AI "menace" and humanity will be tasked with keeping the other races in line, deploying Reapers as they see fit.

Synthesis becomes a situation where the galactic races are all harvested to become Reapers, implying that Harbinger has managed to convince Shepard that the Reapers are necessary and that the cycle has to continue.

Destroy simply means destroying all Reapers and ending the cycle. Not all synthetics are destroyed and the Mass Relays are intact. However Harbinger suggests that if the Reapers are destroyed, the Synthetics will turn on the Organics and wipe them out. In fact "Destroy" isn't really an option that Harbinger presents. It's one you decide for yourself and if you choose it, the Reapers will attack the Crucible in order to prevent it happening. This is where all of your war assets and choices come into play. You can choose to destroy the Reapers and you can fail if you don't have the required assets to hold off the Reapers while the Crucible prepares to fire. You can also succeed but the damage will be so great that the Citadel and Crucible will fall out of the sky, obviously killing Shepard and his squad. Also, Harbinger, in Illusive Man's body, will attack you.

There may even be a scenario where Joker will sacrifice himself to defeat the Harbinger Reaper or maybe even EDI will sacrifice herself for the sake of all lifeforms.

Those final moments will depend entirely on the choices you've made across the trilogy. Who lives and who dies, who comes to your aid and who doesn't. Available weapons and troops, the right people in the right places.

In most of the "Destroy" scenarios, Shepard dies. How he dies depends on how you've played through the games. It's possible to get a happy ending where everyone lives but you have to work hard to get it.

So how does the game actually end?

If you choose to control the Reapers and by extension, the galaxy, the Reapers withdraw from Earth and we see a montage that shows humanity assuming it's new dominant position in the galaxy. Humanity praises Shepard while the rest of the galaxy curses him. Some of your friends, mostly aliens but some humans as well, will abandon you, including your LI (if they would disagree with your decision...Liara, Garrus etc).

If you choose to become a Reaper, you will see a montage of events across the galaxy that show people being harvested, including your friends. More Reapers will jump into the Sol System to take care of the fleet. Earth will be preserved for the next cycle. The game will end 50,000 years in the future with a being from the next cycle discovering Liara's "beacon," implying that it's all about to start again.

If you choose to destroy the Reapers, you can fail and you will see the Reapers being victorious across the galaxy. If you succeed, the Relays will be used to send an energy pulse across the galaxy that destroys them. Reapers fall out of the sky, those people who survive breath a sigh of relief. The Citadel itself may be destroyed, taking Shepard and co with it, or Shepard himself will be the only one to die. In the best ending, Shepard lives.

Whatever Shepard's fate, if you are successful in destroying the Reapers, you will hear Liara's entry about Shepard from her beacon as we see the rebuilding process slowly beginning. We see the fate of Shepard's friends. If Shepard is alive, we see him/her with their LI. If Shepard is dead, we see the LI at his/her grave. Either way, we get a final shot of Earth as the sun sets behind it and we catch a final glimpse of the trademarked Mass Effect horizon line.

Interesting idea for the DLC. I wouldn't redo the 3 choices though. The rest should good. Nicely thought out.

Good idea, doesn't fit the theory.

Shep is alone, the beam kills everyone BEFORE it hit Shep. Therfor no one is around to help him to the beam

[Dr_Hello]

MassEffected555 wrote...

Dr_Hello wrote...

@OP

Shepard is sent to a mental hospital and retires happily ever after...

OR simply, after defeating the indoctrination and awakening in the rubble, he resumes the fight...

So after getting hit by the big beam of death, Shepard, half dead and terribly wounded AND fighting indoctrination, kills all the reapers and saves the galaxy? Sorry I can't buy that.

I wrote, he resumes the fight... I didn't go on and write, he kills all reapers and save galaxy... that part is to be written by BioWare.

[Jaze55]

Dr_Hello wrote...

MassEffected555 wrote...

Dr_Hello wrote...

@OP

Shepard is sent to a mental hospital and retires happily ever after...

OR simply, after defeating the indoctrination and awakening in the rubble, he resumes the fight...

So after getting hit by the big beam of death, Shepard, half dead and terribly wounded AND fighting indoctrination, kills all the reapers and saves the galaxy? Sorry I can't buy that.

I wrote, he resumes the fight... I didn't go on and write, he kills all reapers and save galaxy... that part is to be written by BioWare.

Well then what would he do? Bake a cake?

[jedsithor]

MassEffected555 wrote...


That's pretty good, except, according to the theory, Shep doesn't get indoctrinated till AFTER he get's hit by the beam. You don't see your squad with you, or everyone gets killed by the beam before Shep get's hit so how do you fit that in?

You need a small change where squadmates aren't killed by the beam. Or at least you don't see it. Shepard gets hit, goes through his indoctrinated ending and is pulled out of it by his LI. To put it in seriously cheesy terms - love conquers all. 

[Thorn Harvestar]

MassEffected555 wrote...

Dr_Hello wrote...

jedsithor wrote...

What I'd like to see happen is for the ending to play out as it is. Your LI gets out of the crashed Normandy...then turns to the camera and says "Shepard! Shepard get up!" Then BOOM! You're in London. Harbinger is firing his giant laser at you. Your LI is there, dragging you to your feet. Suddenly, the Normandy is there, Joker at the helm, attacking Harbinger, giving you the time you need to reach the Conduit.

If you have an ME2 save with a living Jack and set the students to support roles, they show up and create a barrier around you and your team. A squad of angry Krogan also show up (again, depending on your choices) to clear a path to the Conduit. You and your squad make a run for the Conduit along with any living squad members who were on Earth with you. You reach the Conduit and make it to the Citadel. If you made certain choices, some of your squad and friends will die as you run for the Citadel.

From there it's a straight up fight through the Citadel to reach the Catalyst with you dividing your team up to take on different paths. The way I see it, there's no point in adding DLC for the ending if there isn't going to be any proper gameplay. Fighting your way through the Citadel would fulfill that role.

As you make your way towards the Catalyst, you hear Harbinger taunting you, its taunts being based on the RGB decision you made in the "ending." Unlike most, I wouldn't just have an extended ending be attached to the "Destroy" ending. Nobody should be stuck with basically destroying the galaxy, whatever ending they chose. However the ending you chose would affect what happens in the "real" ending.

When you reach the Catalyst, things would seem eerily familiar. Once again, you'd come face to face with Illusive Man. You can even make him shoot himself in the head again. Or at least you can try...this time around you hear that immortal line "Assuming Direct Control" and it would no longer be Illusive Man standing before you, but Harbinger. The conversation you have with Harbinger would depend on the choice you made while being indoctrinated. If you managed to convince Illusive Man of his indoctrination the first time around, you can try to get through to him, try to get him to break Harbinger's control over him.

Ultimately, Harbinger makes his case for the continuation of the Reapers, again, the conversation is eerily familiar. But this time Shepard is thinking clearly and is capable of countering Harbinger's argument, again depending on the various choices you've made throughout the games (Quarrian and Geth unification etc).

And here's the kicker - you get the same three choices. Well...variations. "Control" becomes a way to not just control the Reapers, but to make humanity the dominant species. Harbinger promises to share Reaper knowledge and technology and give the human race the power to control the galaxy. If Shepard destroys the Geth, Harbinger will recognise Shepard's ability to halt the AI "menace" and humanity will be tasked with keeping the other races in line, deploying Reapers as they see fit.

Synthesis becomes a situation where the galactic races are all harvested to become Reapers, implying that Harbinger has managed to convince Shepard that the Reapers are necessary and that the cycle has to continue.

Destroy simply means destroying all Reapers and ending the cycle. Not all synthetics are destroyed and the Mass Relays are intact. However Harbinger suggests that if the Reapers are destroyed, the Synthetics will turn on the Organics and wipe them out. In fact "Destroy" isn't really an option that Harbinger presents. It's one you decide for yourself and if you choose it, the Reapers will attack the Crucible in order to prevent it happening. This is where all of your war assets and choices come into play. You can choose to destroy the Reapers and you can fail if you don't have the required assets to hold off the Reapers while the Crucible prepares to fire. You can also succeed but the damage will be so great that the Citadel and Crucible will fall out of the sky, obviously killing Shepard and his squad. Also, Harbinger, in Illusive Man's body, will attack you.

There may even be a scenario where Joker will sacrifice himself to defeat the Harbinger Reaper or maybe even EDI will sacrifice herself for the sake of all lifeforms.

Those final moments will depend entirely on the choices you've made across the trilogy. Who lives and who dies, who comes to your aid and who doesn't. Available weapons and troops, the right people in the right places.

In most of the "Destroy" scenarios, Shepard dies. How he dies depends on how you've played through the games. It's possible to get a happy ending where everyone lives but you have to work hard to get it.

So how does the game actually end?

If you choose to control the Reapers and by extension, the galaxy, the Reapers withdraw from Earth and we see a montage that shows humanity assuming it's new dominant position in the galaxy. Humanity praises Shepard while the rest of the galaxy curses him. Some of your friends, mostly aliens but some humans as well, will abandon you, including your LI (if they would disagree with your decision...Liara, Garrus etc).

If you choose to become a Reaper, you will see a montage of events across the galaxy that show people being harvested, including your friends. More Reapers will jump into the Sol System to take care of the fleet. Earth will be preserved for the next cycle. The game will end 50,000 years in the future with a being from the next cycle discovering Liara's "beacon," implying that it's all about to start again.

If you choose to destroy the Reapers, you can fail and you will see the Reapers being victorious across the galaxy. If you succeed, the Relays will be used to send an energy pulse across the galaxy that destroys them. Reapers fall out of the sky, those people who survive breath a sigh of relief. The Citadel itself may be destroyed, taking Shepard and co with it, or Shepard himself will be the only one to die. In the best ending, Shepard lives.

Whatever Shepard's fate, if you are successful in destroying the Reapers, you will hear Liara's entry about Shepard from her beacon as we see the rebuilding process slowly beginning. We see the fate of Shepard's friends. If Shepard is alive, we see him/her with their LI. If Shepard is dead, we see the LI at his/her grave. Either way, we get a final shot of Earth as the sun sets behind it and we catch a final glimpse of the trademarked Mass Effect horizon line.

Interesting idea for the DLC. I wouldn't redo the 3 choices though. The rest should good. Nicely thought out.

Good idea, doesn't fit the theory.

Shep is alone, the beam kills everyone BEFORE it hit Shep. Therfor no one is around to help him to the beam

If your EMS is high enough, you don't see your 2 squadmates killed. They are behind you on the run downhill though. They are just gone when you get up. If you're hallucinating from that point on, why isn't this plausible?

[Jaze55]

jedsithor wrote...

MassEffected555 wrote...


That's pretty good, except, according to the theory, Shep doesn't get indoctrinated till AFTER he get's hit by the beam. You don't see your squad with you, or everyone gets killed by the beam before Shep get's hit so how do you fit that in?

You need a small change where squadmates aren't killed by the beam. Or at least you don't see it. Shepard gets hit, goes through his indoctrinated ending and is pulled out of it by his LI. To put it in seriously cheesy terms - love conquers all. 

Frankly I am fine with that. I have NO problem having another squishy scene with Tali .... it just doesn't fit the theory unless they change a LOT. BUT according to the theory everything up to the beam hitting Shep is all real and true so unfortunatly it won't fit with where the Theory picks up. 

[The Lightspeaker]

Indoctrination theory doesn't necessarily mean Shepard has already been indoctrinated.

The version I subscribe to is the hallucinations are the actual process of indoctrination. As in, Harbinger is actively trying to indoctrinate Shepard at that point which is why Shepard is imaging all of this weird stuff.

The three options represent three different ways the indoctrination can go and are actually titled appropriately. Control is as it sounds...but reversed. So the Reapers take total control over Shepard. Synthesis is perhaps similar to what happened to Benezia in that its not a total form of control and theres at least part of Shepard "still there" but not strong enough to overcome the Reapers' control. Destroy is Shepard "destroying" the indoctrination attempt and throwing it off entirely, frustrating Harbinger. Benezia is flat out proof that indoctrination can be fought given that she managed to, albeit temporarily, overcome it right at the end despite being heavily indoctrinated already.

[Jaze55]

Thorn Harvestar wrote...

MassEffected555 wrote...

Dr_Hello wrote...

jedsithor wrote...

What I'd like to see happen is for the ending to play out as it is. Your LI gets out of the crashed Normandy...then turns to the camera and says "Shepard! Shepard get up!" Then BOOM! You're in London. Harbinger is firing his giant laser at you. Your LI is there, dragging you to your feet. Suddenly, the Normandy is there, Joker at the helm, attacking Harbinger, giving you the time you need to reach the Conduit.

If you have an ME2 save with a living Jack and set the students to support roles, they show up and create a barrier around you and your team. A squad of angry Krogan also show up (again, depending on your choices) to clear a path to the Conduit. You and your squad make a run for the Conduit along with any living squad members who were on Earth with you. You reach the Conduit and make it to the Citadel. If you made certain choices, some of your squad and friends will die as you run for the Citadel.

From there it's a straight up fight through the Citadel to reach the Catalyst with you dividing your team up to take on different paths. The way I see it, there's no point in adding DLC for the ending if there isn't going to be any proper gameplay. Fighting your way through the Citadel would fulfill that role.

As you make your way towards the Catalyst, you hear Harbinger taunting you, its taunts being based on the RGB decision you made in the "ending." Unlike most, I wouldn't just have an extended ending be attached to the "Destroy" ending. Nobody should be stuck with basically destroying the galaxy, whatever ending they chose. However the ending you chose would affect what happens in the "real" ending.

When you reach the Catalyst, things would seem eerily familiar. Once again, you'd come face to face with Illusive Man. You can even make him shoot himself in the head again. Or at least you can try...this time around you hear that immortal line "Assuming Direct Control" and it would no longer be Illusive Man standing before you, but Harbinger. The conversation you have with Harbinger would depend on the choice you made while being indoctrinated. If you managed to convince Illusive Man of his indoctrination the first time around, you can try to get through to him, try to get him to break Harbinger's control over him.

Ultimately, Harbinger makes his case for the continuation of the Reapers, again, the conversation is eerily familiar. But this time Shepard is thinking clearly and is capable of countering Harbinger's argument, again depending on the various choices you've made throughout the games (Quarrian and Geth unification etc).

And here's the kicker - you get the same three choices. Well...variations. "Control" becomes a way to not just control the Reapers, but to make humanity the dominant species. Harbinger promises to share Reaper knowledge and technology and give the human race the power to control the galaxy. If Shepard destroys the Geth, Harbinger will recognise Shepard's ability to halt the AI "menace" and humanity will be tasked with keeping the other races in line, deploying Reapers as they see fit.

Synthesis becomes a situation where the galactic races are all harvested to become Reapers, implying that Harbinger has managed to convince Shepard that the Reapers are necessary and that the cycle has to continue.

Destroy simply means destroying all Reapers and ending the cycle. Not all synthetics are destroyed and the Mass Relays are intact. However Harbinger suggests that if the Reapers are destroyed, the Synthetics will turn on the Organics and wipe them out. In fact "Destroy" isn't really an option that Harbinger presents. It's one you decide for yourself and if you choose it, the Reapers will attack the Crucible in order to prevent it happening. This is where all of your war assets and choices come into play. You can choose to destroy the Reapers and you can fail if you don't have the required assets to hold off the Reapers while the Crucible prepares to fire. You can also succeed but the damage will be so great that the Citadel and Crucible will fall out of the sky, obviously killing Shepard and his squad. Also, Harbinger, in Illusive Man's body, will attack you.

There may even be a scenario where Joker will sacrifice himself to defeat the Harbinger Reaper or maybe even EDI will sacrifice herself for the sake of all lifeforms.

Those final moments will depend entirely on the choices you've made across the trilogy. Who lives and who dies, who comes to your aid and who doesn't. Available weapons and troops, the right people in the right places.

In most of the "Destroy" scenarios, Shepard dies. How he dies depends on how you've played through the games. It's possible to get a happy ending where everyone lives but you have to work hard to get it.

So how does the game actually end?

If you choose to control the Reapers and by extension, the galaxy, the Reapers withdraw from Earth and we see a montage that shows humanity assuming it's new dominant position in the galaxy. Humanity praises Shepard while the rest of the galaxy curses him. Some of your friends, mostly aliens but some humans as well, will abandon you, including your LI (if they would disagree with your decision...Liara, Garrus etc).

If you choose to become a Reaper, you will see a montage of events across the galaxy that show people being harvested, including your friends. More Reapers will jump into the Sol System to take care of the fleet. Earth will be preserved for the next cycle. The game will end 50,000 years in the future with a being from the next cycle discovering Liara's "beacon," implying that it's all about to start again.

If you choose to destroy the Reapers, you can fail and you will see the Reapers being victorious across the galaxy. If you succeed, the Relays will be used to send an energy pulse across the galaxy that destroys them. Reapers fall out of the sky, those people who survive breath a sigh of relief. The Citadel itself may be destroyed, taking Shepard and co with it, or Shepard himself will be the only one to die. In the best ending, Shepard lives.

Whatever Shepard's fate, if you are successful in destroying the Reapers, you will hear Liara's entry about Shepard from her beacon as we see the rebuilding process slowly beginning. We see the fate of Shepard's friends. If Shepard is alive, we see him/her with their LI. If Shepard is dead, we see the LI at his/her grave. Either way, we get a final shot of Earth as the sun sets behind it and we catch a final glimpse of the trademarked Mass Effect horizon line.

Interesting idea for the DLC. I wouldn't redo the 3 choices though. The rest should good. Nicely thought out.

Good idea, doesn't fit the theory.

Shep is alone, the beam kills everyone BEFORE it hit Shep. Therfor no one is around to help him to the beam

If your EMS is high enough, you don't see your 2 squadmates killed. They are behind you on the run downhill though. They are just gone when you get up. If you're hallucinating from that point on, why isn't this plausible?

But they aren't. I replayed the scene where you run to the beam and walked backwards the whole time. They are with you and then vanish. Where did they go? I know they show up on the Normandy but that's a major complaint with the ending, how did they get there? OK then how did they come half way on the trip to the beam the disappear BEFORE you get hit? 

try it, walk backwards during that scene they are there then vanish before the beam. Pretty sure I am remember that right. 

[Oakenshield1]

But didn't Shep already resist indoctrination in Arival?

[Jaze55]

The Lightspeaker wrote...

Indoctrination theory doesn't necessarily mean Shepard has already been indoctrinated.

The version I subscribe to is the hallucinations are the actual process of indoctrination. As in, Harbinger is actively trying to indoctrinate Shepard at that point which is why Shepard is imaging all of this weird stuff.

The three options represent three different ways the indoctrination can go and are actually titled appropriately. Control is as it sounds...but reversed. So the Reapers take total control over Shepard. Synthesis is perhaps similar to what happened to Benezia in that its not a total form of control and theres at least part of Shepard "still there" but not strong enough to overcome the Reapers' control. Destroy is Shepard "destroying" the indoctrination attempt and throwing it off entirely, frustrating Harbinger. Benezia is flat out proof that indoctrination can be fought given that she managed to, albeit temporarily, overcome it right at the end despite being heavily indoctrinated already.

Fine. Then he wakes up in the rubble and does what? 

They still need to use the crucible and they still need the citadels arms opened. Don't forget that. 

[Dr_Hello]

[quote]MassEffected555 wrote...

[quote]Dr_Hello wrote...

[quote]jedsithor wrote...

social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/10321695/6#10327464

[/quote]

Good idea, doesn't fit the theory.

Shep is alone, the beam kills everyone BEFORE it hit Shep. Therfor no one is around to help him to the beam


[/quote]

How do we know Shepard is alone and everyone else on the ground was wiped out?!

If we follow the indoc. theory, all of what we saw after the laser hit is hallucination.

Irrespective of indoc. theory, looking at the deleted scene where we see Shepard witnessing the laser hitting right between Liara and Garrus, it leaves it open ended about whether they died or not. The laser didn't hit directly on one of them, we didn't see their bodies disintegrate. So they could be dead, or... badly hurt but still alive on the ground.

Modifié par Dr_Hello, 20 mars 2012 - 07:07 .

[wotmaniac]

Shep doesn't get indoctrinated till AFTER he get's hit by the beam. You don't see your squad with you, or everyone gets killed by the beam before Shep get's hit so how do you fit that in?

OP, Shep isn't indoctrinated when he is hit by harby's beam. harby TRIES to indocrinate him. Depending on whether you choose control\\synthesis\\destroy, you either succumb or you dont.
All this according to IT.
And squaddies, wether they die or not in the beam seems to depend on your EMS.

[Diesel McBadass]

Shepard wakes to see harbinger aiming his beam down, and right before the killing blow, normandy fires its main gun. Harbinger is hit and injured, has to cancel shot, fires at normandy but normandy evades. This gives shepard time to get to the beam. He gets into the citadel and fights reaper forces. Gets to the control room and has edi load an updated reaper code and a pulse fires bringing down shields making reapers more vulnerable like soverighn in ME1. Your military strength (patched so you dont need to do stupid multiplayer) will determine success. If victorious and shepard lives, a end scene has the combined fleet bringing the citadel to the mass relay with shepard making a speech that earth has been liberated and it's time to free the whole galaxy.

Scenes show the worlds eing liberated and dialouge that explains goings on. Example: Show turian homeworld being liberated and explaining how they rebuild with help from krogan, in exchange for their help bringing technology to tuchanka, or show the geth and quarians rebuilding rannoch side by side.

[Jaze55]

Oakenshield1 wrote...

But didn't Shep already resist indoctrination in Arival?

Yes. Only after a 5 minute fight you can not win. You get knocked out no matter what. You were in a fight so you have tons of adrenaline pumping through you. You are next to a reaper artifact trying to indoctrinat you for TWO days and somhow can resist that, yet you can't, for 30 seconds, resist the attempt from Harby beam?

Both cases you are in a fight so you have adrenaline pumping. Both cases you are knocked out. BUT in Arrival you are knocked out for a whole 2 days. 

SO somehow it makes sense that Shep can avoid indoc for 2 days but not for a few seconds? I know someone is gonna say 'well its harby so its stronger" but thats nothing but reaching.,

2 days knocked out is more then enough time for ANYONE to be indoctrinated which is the case in Arrival. 

[Thorn Harvestar]

MassEffected555 wrote...

Thorn Harvestar wrote...

If your EMS is high enough, you don't see your 2 squadmates killed. They are behind you on the run downhill though. They are just gone when you get up. If you're hallucinating from that point on, why isn't this plausible?

But they aren't. I replayed the scene where you run to the beam and walked backwards the whole time. They are with you and then vanish. Where did they go? I know they show up on the Normandy but that's a major complaint with the ending, how did they get there? OK then how did they come half way on the trip to the beam the disappear BEFORE you get hit? 

try it, walk backwards during that scene they are there then vanish before the beam. Pretty sure I am remember that right. 

This sounds like they just were sloppy with the programming. They don't expect the player to be looking backwards when the beam strikes, and I bet you they disappear there even with low EMS, only for their bodies to be seen when you get back up.

Anytime a character model instantly vanishes like that, I mean it's obviously not intented that way story-wise.

[Jaze55]

wotmaniac wrote...

Shep doesn't get indoctrinated till AFTER he get's hit by the beam. You don't see your squad with you, or everyone gets killed by the beam before Shep get's hit so how do you fit that in?

OP, Shep isn't indoctrinated when he is hit by harby's beam. harby TRIES to indocrinate him. Depending on whether you choose controlsynthesisdestroy, you either succumb or you dont.
All this according to IT.
And squaddies, wether they die or not in the beam seems to depend on your EMS.

No ****. What happens AFTER??????????????????????

[iTofu]

The current non-IT ending has plot holes. The endings born of the IT theory would have plotholes without twist, explanation or retcon. There is no satisfying answer given the current framework.

Modifié par iTofu, 20 mars 2012 - 07:05 .

[Jaze55]

Thorn Harvestar wrote...

MassEffected555 wrote...

Thorn Harvestar wrote...

If your EMS is high enough, you don't see your 2 squadmates killed. They are behind you on the run downhill though. They are just gone when you get up. If you're hallucinating from that point on, why isn't this plausible?

But they aren't. I replayed the scene where you run to the beam and walked backwards the whole time. They are with you and then vanish. Where did they go? I know they show up on the Normandy but that's a major complaint with the ending, how did they get there? OK then how did they come half way on the trip to the beam the disappear BEFORE you get hit? 

try it, walk backwards during that scene they are there then vanish before the beam. Pretty sure I am remember that right. 

This sounds like they just were sloppy with the programming. They don't expect the player to be looking backwards when the beam strikes, and I bet you they disappear there even with low EMS, only for their bodies to be seen when you get back up.

Anytime a character model instantly vanishes like that, I mean it's obviously not intented that way story-wise.

Umm so sloppy coding and vanishing characters is explainable as sloppy coding and programming but a terrible ending can in no way JUST be sloppy writing? 

SO CONFUSED!

[Dr_Hello]

[quote]MassEffected555 wrote...

[quote]Thorn Harvestar wrote...

[quote]MassEffected555 wrote...

[quote]Dr_Hello wrote...

[quote]jedsithor wrote...

social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/10321695/6#10327464

[/quote]

Good idea, doesn't fit the theory.

Shep is alone, the beam kills everyone BEFORE it hit Shep. Therfor no one is around to help him to the beam


[/quote]

If your EMS is high enough, you don't see your 2 squadmates killed. They are behind you on the run downhill though. They are just gone when you get up. If you're hallucinating from that point on, why isn't this plausible?[/quote]

But they aren't. I replayed the scene where you run to the beam and walked backwards the whole time. They are with you and then vanish. Where did they go? I know they show up on the Normandy but that's a major complaint with the ending, how did they get there? OK then how did they come half way on the trip to the beam the disappear BEFORE you get hit? 

try it, walk backwards during that scene they are there then vanish before the beam. Pretty sure I am remember that right. 

[/quote]

The 'how they got on the Normandy' can only be explained as Shepard's hallucinating. Otherwise it's a terrible plothole. I hope you're familiar with the indoc. theory, you'd then understand what we've been talking about.

The 'walking back on the ground and seeing squadmates disappear' is more of a gameplay design glitch or something of that sort. The charactes are programmed to simply run down... then next scene would come in, unless you run up the hill, trying to avoid the inevitable... the laser hit.

Modifié par Dr_Hello, 20 mars 2012 - 07:09 .

[Leninsaurus]

I've always figured that the difference between Shepard and Benezia/Saren was the time of exposure to Reapers. While Benezia and Saren have been traveling in Sovereign the whole duration of ME1 and probably even before that, Shepard has always only been in contact with Reapers/Reaperartifacts for short periods of time. Maybe the indoctrination couldn't really bear any fruit with Shepard because the exposures had been random and shorter than with any indoctrinated individuals we know of. And while maybe it has kind of "built up", Shepard was never in any danger of being indoctrinated or needed to actively fight it off to stay in control of her/his mind. Like, for exampl, with trans fat. If you don't consume products that have trans fat daily and excessively it won't harm you in the long run. It is very difficult to reduce the transfat once it is in the body, but it is not altogether dangerous. But if you consume food with trans fat daily and a lot of it, you'll sooner or later get various dangerous healthproblems and endanger your life.

What I'm getting at here is that maybe the time of exposure and amount of it is significant for a successful indoctrination, if a person is only randomly exposed and only for short periods of time, it doesn't even get hold enough to become a danger, but it IS building up.
And at the end, with being surrounded by Reapers on Earth and having encountered several Reapers and Reapertechnology, Shepard might has reached the critical level of "indoctrination"-buildup that finally proves to be a danger for them. And I personally think, that the whole scenario - if viewed as a hallucination - is the visualisation of Shepard's brain of their first actual real struggle against the intrusive indoctrination, and whether they give in to it, or actually manage to hold on to their own mind for a while longer and are able to shut it out - for now. It has been established that Shepard is remarkably strong willed, and can resist for a long time. But not forever, as I said - if this buildup-theory is somewhat true - at one point there will be the straw that breaks the camel's back and Shepard really becomes indoctrinated. They might still fight, but they have ultimately lost. They cannot escape forever, just as Benezia couldn't battle the indoctrination forever. At one point it becomes an overpowering force, and the mind might try to protest, but it is pointless.

So maybe the hallucination is the breaking point on whether the indoctrination actually gains a foothold in Shepard's mind or they can hold it off bay for a little while longer, until it just becomes too overwhelming for them. And if Destroy is chosen, they have won the fight - for now. But it is close. The straw is almost breaking the camel's back. What happens afterwards is of course questionable. Maybe they can defeat the Reapers fast enough not to become indoctrinated? Maybe the indoctrination wears off if the Reapers are actually and really completely destroyed? (Not like the derelict Reaper where the mass effect core was actually still intact, and it was still emitting signals)

Just speculations on my part though, I admit I haven't taken everything into consideration that probably should be considered, but it might be food for thought, at least.
Personally I think it would be very interesting to build upon the idea that Shepard is becoming indoctrinated and has to fight it throughout the battle on earth and maybe even afterwards. I mean, maybe it can be counteracted by medical/therapeutic procedures if not too advanced? (Like the husk-like salarians on Virmire, those would probably be lost no matter what) I don't think that there is any clear research on that matter other than Saren's research on Virmire, on which we know little of, and which has been destroyed in the blast of the bomb.

Don't mind me, just throwing ideas around here.

Modifié par Leninsaurus, 20 mars 2012 - 07:06 .

[Koolgool]

Shepard never gets fully indoctrinated in the Indoctrination Theory, the reapers are just attempting to control him. The only time they ever gain complete control is if you choose the Control or Synthesis options. If you choose destroy, you break the indoctrination and are free to save the galaxy.

Which we never see.

[jedsithor]

MassEffected555 wrote...



Frankly I am fine with that. I have NO problem having another squishy scene with Tali .... it just doesn't fit the theory unless they change a LOT. BUT according to the theory everything up to the beam hitting Shep is all real and true so unfortunatly it won't fit with where the Theory picks up. 

Well that's the problem with the Indoctrination Theory. It negates the possibility of a happy ending for Shepard. I think a happy ending for Shep needs to be possible. I don't think it has to be the only ending and I think it shouldn't be easy to get but it needs to be there. 

As for how you make it work, I've only played through the endgame once...I just can't bring myself to do it again, but correct me if I'm wrong here, we don't actually see the squadmates die, right? We see them on the ground, presumably dead, and hear Anderson saying that nobody made it. But if Shepard, who is presumed dead at that point, can get up, why can't they? 

The theory relies on Shepard surviving the red beam of doom. That itself is a longshot, so having the others survive it isn't beyond the realms of possibility. Heck, maybe the others go through their own version of indoctrination. Maybe the DLC could pick up with Shepard finding his squadmates in Reaper heaven and convincing them that it's not real. I don't know, but if Shepard can survive, so can they.

[LolaLei]

MassEffected555 wrote...

Thorn Harvestar wrote...

MassEffected555 wrote...

Thorn Harvestar wrote...

If your EMS is high enough, you don't see your 2 squadmates killed. They are behind you on the run downhill though. They are just gone when you get up. If you're hallucinating from that point on, why isn't this plausible?

But they aren't. I replayed the scene where you run to the beam and walked backwards the whole time. They are with you and then vanish. Where did they go? I know they show up on the Normandy but that's a major complaint with the ending, how did they get there? OK then how did they come half way on the trip to the beam the disappear BEFORE you get hit? 

try it, walk backwards during that scene they are there then vanish before the beam. Pretty sure I am remember that right. 

This sounds like they just were sloppy with the programming. They don't expect the player to be looking backwards when the beam strikes, and I bet you they disappear there even with low EMS, only for their bodies to be seen when you get back up.

Anytime a character model instantly vanishes like that, I mean it's obviously not intented that way story-wise.

Umm so sloppy coding and vanishing characters is explainable as sloppy coding and programming but a terrible ending can in no way JUST be sloppy writing? 

SO CONFUSED!

Undoubtedly it was some sort of glitch, but it can be worked into the story. We can only work with what we've been given.

[Thorn Harvestar]

MassEffected555 wrote...

Thorn Harvestar wrote...

MassEffected555 wrote...

Thorn Harvestar wrote...

If your EMS is high enough, you don't see your 2 squadmates killed. They are behind you on the run downhill though. They are just gone when you get up. If you're hallucinating from that point on, why isn't this plausible?

But they aren't. I replayed the scene where you run to the beam and walked backwards the whole time. They are with you and then vanish. Where did they go? I know they show up on the Normandy but that's a major complaint with the ending, how did they get there? OK then how did they come half way on the trip to the beam the disappear BEFORE you get hit? 

try it, walk backwards during that scene they are there then vanish before the beam. Pretty sure I am remember that right. 

This sounds like they just were sloppy with the programming. They don't expect the player to be looking backwards when the beam strikes, and I bet you they disappear there even with low EMS, only for their bodies to be seen when you get back up.

Anytime a character model instantly vanishes like that, I mean it's obviously not intented that way story-wise.

Umm so sloppy coding and vanishing characters is explainable as sloppy coding and programming but a terrible ending can in no way JUST be sloppy writing? 

SO CONFUSED!

I think there is a BIG difference between game-engine issues (like character models vanishing into thin air, clipping through walls, etc.) and animated cutscenes like the Normandy crash landing...

(Side note: Thank you for making this thread; it is good to ask the hard questions and stimulate real discussion like this. I appreciate it)

EDIT: Also, I'm not saying the original ending wasn't mostly just sloppy writing. That Making Of app kind of proves that it was...

Modifié par Thorn Harvestar, 20 mars 2012 - 07:07 .

[Jarcander]

The citalde arms should be opened, obviously. If the Reapers are smart, they have already disabled the "elevator beam" so the only choice is to use Normandy to fly to the citadel and hope to find a hole somewhere to enter.

And once inside citadel... all bets are off. Anything could happen. ANYTHING! I'm so excited about this DLC that may or may not happen!

This indoctrination theory is awesome and this is coming from someone who supported the original ending.