463 réponses à ce sujet

[Jaze55]

Thorn Harvestar wrote...

MassEffected555 wrote...

Thorn Harvestar wrote...

MassEffected555 wrote...

Thorn Harvestar wrote...

If your EMS is high enough, you don't see your 2 squadmates killed. They are behind you on the run downhill though. They are just gone when you get up. If you're hallucinating from that point on, why isn't this plausible?

But they aren't. I replayed the scene where you run to the beam and walked backwards the whole time. They are with you and then vanish. Where did they go? I know they show up on the Normandy but that's a major complaint with the ending, how did they get there? OK then how did they come half way on the trip to the beam the disappear BEFORE you get hit? 

try it, walk backwards during that scene they are there then vanish before the beam. Pretty sure I am remember that right. 

This sounds like they just were sloppy with the programming. They don't expect the player to be looking backwards when the beam strikes, and I bet you they disappear there even with low EMS, only for their bodies to be seen when you get back up.

Anytime a character model instantly vanishes like that, I mean it's obviously not intented that way story-wise.

Umm so sloppy coding and vanishing characters is explainable as sloppy coding and programming but a terrible ending can in no way JUST be sloppy writing? 

SO CONFUSED!

I think there is a BIG difference between game-engine issues (like character models vanishing into thin air, clipping through walls, etc.) and animated cutscenes like the Normandy crash landing...

(Side note: Thank you for making this thread; it is good to ask the hard questions and stimulate real discussion like this. I appreciate it)

EDIT: Also, I'm not saying the original ending wasn't mostly just sloppy writing. That Making Of app kind of proves that it was...

You're welcome. I really don't like the theory, no secret there, but a lot do. So if there is anyway for BW to use it it has to make sense and so far I don't see it doing so, which is the point of this thread.

I want an ending to make sense. That's all I care about. I don't want it to be MY ending, or the Indoc ending, I JUST want an ending that makes sense and provides closure. 

Modifié par MassEffected555, 20 mars 2012 - 07:14 .

[Jaze55]

Jarcander wrote...

The citalde arms should be opened, obviously. If the Reapers are smart, they have already disabled the "elevator beam" so the only choice is to use Normandy to fly to the citadel and hope to find a hole somewhere to enter.

And once inside citadel... all bets are off. Anything could happen. ANYTHING! I'm so excited about this DLC that may or may not happen!

This indoctrination theory is awesome and this is coming from someone who supported the original ending.

Ok. Where does the Normandy land to pick up Shep? How does Shep, who just got beamafied from Harby, is confused from the indoc attempt even GET to the Normandy?

[Dr_Hello]

LolaLei wrote...

MassEffected555 wrote...

Thorn Harvestar wrote...

MassEffected555 wrote...

Thorn Harvestar wrote...

If your EMS is high enough, you don't see your 2 squadmates killed. They are behind you on the run downhill though. They are just gone when you get up. If you're hallucinating from that point on, why isn't this plausible?

But they aren't. I replayed the scene where you run to the beam and walked backwards the whole time. They are with you and then vanish. Where did they go? I know they show up on the Normandy but that's a major complaint with the ending, how did they get there? OK then how did they come half way on the trip to the beam the disappear BEFORE you get hit? 

try it, walk backwards during that scene they are there then vanish before the beam. Pretty sure I am remember that right. 

This sounds like they just were sloppy with the programming. They don't expect the player to be looking backwards when the beam strikes, and I bet you they disappear there even with low EMS, only for their bodies to be seen when you get back up.

Anytime a character model instantly vanishes like that, I mean it's obviously not intented that way story-wise.

Umm so sloppy coding and vanishing characters is explainable as sloppy coding and programming but a terrible ending can in no way JUST be sloppy writing? 

SO CONFUSED!

Undoubtedly it was some sort of glitch, but it can be worked into the story. We can only work with what we've been given.

Vanishing characters happen here and there in Mass Effect games I've noticed. It's more of a technical issue than story-related. I wouldn't read into the vanishing characters on the ground as definite proof of what so ever.

[Ariq]

MassEffected555 wrote...

I don't need to adress those points though...

Stop right there. You're admitting no evidence will convince you. That's cool. You don't believe. No reason you have to do so. But if you don't want to address those points, you can't claim other people are out of line for accepting the Indoctrination theory. Shiala, Saren, and the events of Arrival are plenty enough evidence to provide support for the theory until confirmation one way or another comes.

[Jaze55]

Dr_Hello wrote...

LolaLei wrote...

MassEffected555 wrote...

Thorn Harvestar wrote...

MassEffected555 wrote...

Thorn Harvestar wrote...

If your EMS is high enough, you don't see your 2 squadmates killed. They are behind you on the run downhill though. They are just gone when you get up. If you're hallucinating from that point on, why isn't this plausible?

But they aren't. I replayed the scene where you run to the beam and walked backwards the whole time. They are with you and then vanish. Where did they go? I know they show up on the Normandy but that's a major complaint with the ending, how did they get there? OK then how did they come half way on the trip to the beam the disappear BEFORE you get hit? 

try it, walk backwards during that scene they are there then vanish before the beam. Pretty sure I am remember that right. 

This sounds like they just were sloppy with the programming. They don't expect the player to be looking backwards when the beam strikes, and I bet you they disappear there even with low EMS, only for their bodies to be seen when you get back up.

Anytime a character model instantly vanishes like that, I mean it's obviously not intented that way story-wise.

Umm so sloppy coding and vanishing characters is explainable as sloppy coding and programming but a terrible ending can in no way JUST be sloppy writing? 

SO CONFUSED!

Undoubtedly it was some sort of glitch, but it can be worked into the story. We can only work with what we've been given.

Vanishing characters happen here and there in Mass Effect games I've noticed. It's more of a technical issue than story-related. I wouldn't read into the vanishing characters on the ground as definite proof of what so ever.

But it's OK to use some random trees that pop up as evidence of something? Or some random cable next to Shep in the Alive scene as evidence?

Hmm that doesn't sound right to me. 

[Thorn Harvestar]

MassEffected555 wrote...

Your welcome. I really don't like the theory, no secret there, but a lot do. So if there is anyway for BW to use it it has to make sense and so far I don't see it doing so, which is the point of this thread.

I want an ending to make sense. That's all I care about. I don't want it to be MY ending, or the Indoc ending, I JUST want an ending that makes sense and provides closure. 

(bold) I agree wholeheartedly.

Anyways, your crew characters disappearing into thin air while you are looking at them is obviously not intended, so it remains unclear what happens to them. There is not enough data, as it were. Even seeing them dead with low EMS after you get up from the beam blast may not be conclusive, if you were indeed hallucinating from that point on.

[Jaze55]

Ariq wrote...

MassEffected555 wrote...

I don't need to adress those points though...

Stop right there. You're admitting no evidence will convince you. That's cool. You don't believe. No reason you have to do so. But if you don't want to address those points, you can't claim other people are out of line for accepting the Indoctrination theory. Shiala, Saren, and the events of Arrival are plenty enough evidence to provide support for the theory until confirmation one way or another comes.

lol funny thing is right below that I did explain it even though I wasn't trying to at the start. Read the rest or quote my entire post so everyone can see what else I wrote after.

ONCE AGAIN leaving out critical data to make your point sound better.

[Thorn Harvestar]

MassEffected555 wrote...

Dr_Hello wrote...

LolaLei wrote...

MassEffected555 wrote...

Thorn Harvestar wrote...

MassEffected555 wrote...

Thorn Harvestar wrote...

If your EMS is high enough, you don't see your 2 squadmates killed. They are behind you on the run downhill though. They are just gone when you get up. If you're hallucinating from that point on, why isn't this plausible?

But they aren't. I replayed the scene where you run to the beam and walked backwards the whole time. They are with you and then vanish. Where did they go? I know they show up on the Normandy but that's a major complaint with the ending, how did they get there? OK then how did they come half way on the trip to the beam the disappear BEFORE you get hit? 

try it, walk backwards during that scene they are there then vanish before the beam. Pretty sure I am remember that right. 

This sounds like they just were sloppy with the programming. They don't expect the player to be looking backwards when the beam strikes, and I bet you they disappear there even with low EMS, only for their bodies to be seen when you get back up.

Anytime a character model instantly vanishes like that, I mean it's obviously not intented that way story-wise.

Umm so sloppy coding and vanishing characters is explainable as sloppy coding and programming but a terrible ending can in no way JUST be sloppy writing? 

SO CONFUSED!

Undoubtedly it was some sort of glitch, but it can be worked into the story. We can only work with what we've been given.

Vanishing characters happen here and there in Mass Effect games I've noticed. It's more of a technical issue than story-related. I wouldn't read into the vanishing characters on the ground as definite proof of what so ever.

But it's OK to use some random trees that pop up as evidence of something? Or some random cable next to Shep in the Alive scene as evidence?

Hmm that doesn't sound right to me. 

Things appearing in new scenes (after blackouts, transitions) is different from a graphic/character model instantaneously appearing or disappearing while you are looking at it.

[Jaze55]

MassEffected555 wrote...

Ariq wrote...

MassEffected555 wrote...

I don't need to adress those points though...

Stop right there. You're admitting no evidence will convince you. That's cool. You don't believe. No reason you have to do so. But if you don't want to address those points, you can't claim other people are out of line for accepting the Indoctrination theory. Shiala, Saren, and the events of Arrival are plenty enough evidence to provide support for the theory until confirmation one way or another comes.

lol funny thing is right below that I did explain it even though I wasn't trying to at the start. Read the rest or quote my entire post so everyone can see what else I wrote after.

ONCE AGAIN leaving out critical data to make your point sound better.

Here is EVERYTHING I wrote that this guy left out where I do in fact explain things. See what he did? Ommited stuff to make his point better? 

"I don't need to adress those points though because the theory says Shep is indoctrinated and he doesn't have the Thorium side affect since he was never under it's control. 

Saren only had the tech implanted because Sovy didn't exert enough control on purpose so Saren still had free will and would be a better agent. Explained in ME 1 by Saren himself.

So what is it? Shepard, after getting his ass kicked enough to be knocked out for 2 days can deny indoc, but he can't when he gets his ass kicked by the beam from Harby?

No thats not a plot hole in itself right there. Both cases Shep has his ass kicked, is in a fight so he is full of adrenaline yet for TWO days while his is unconsiouse right next to a reaper artifact he is able to resist but he can't for for your theory?

Now you are making me go right back to where I think the theory is full of crap completely. "

[Karnor00]

The codex entries aren't always accurate. They are simply statements of general understanding at the time they are written. Look at the ME1 codex entry for Rachi for example - it says that they are extinct when we know that isn't true if Shepard saves the queen.

So the fact that codex states that indoctrination is permanent and can't be resisted doesn't necessarily make it true - it just means that the author of the codex (i.e. someone within the ME universe) believed it to be true. Particularly as there are several examples of people overcoming indoctrination (at least temporarily) with willpower.

And if indoctrination was the failsafe perfect method that some are making it out to be then why do the Reapers bother fighting the organics to harvest them? Why not simply indoctrinate the whole galaxy and tell them to form an orderly queue in front of the harvester.

[Jaze55]

Thorn Harvestar wrote...

MassEffected555 wrote...

Dr_Hello wrote...

LolaLei wrote...

MassEffected555 wrote...

Thorn Harvestar wrote...

MassEffected555 wrote...

Thorn Harvestar wrote...

If your EMS is high enough, you don't see your 2 squadmates killed. They are behind you on the run downhill though. They are just gone when you get up. If you're hallucinating from that point on, why isn't this plausible?

But they aren't. I replayed the scene where you run to the beam and walked backwards the whole time. They are with you and then vanish. Where did they go? I know they show up on the Normandy but that's a major complaint with the ending, how did they get there? OK then how did they come half way on the trip to the beam the disappear BEFORE you get hit? 

try it, walk backwards during that scene they are there then vanish before the beam. Pretty sure I am remember that right. 

This sounds like they just were sloppy with the programming. They don't expect the player to be looking backwards when the beam strikes, and I bet you they disappear there even with low EMS, only for their bodies to be seen when you get back up.

Anytime a character model instantly vanishes like that, I mean it's obviously not intented that way story-wise.

Umm so sloppy coding and vanishing characters is explainable as sloppy coding and programming but a terrible ending can in no way JUST be sloppy writing? 

SO CONFUSED!

Undoubtedly it was some sort of glitch, but it can be worked into the story. We can only work with what we've been given.

Vanishing characters happen here and there in Mass Effect games I've noticed. It's more of a technical issue than story-related. I wouldn't read into the vanishing characters on the ground as definite proof of what so ever.

But it's OK to use some random trees that pop up as evidence of something? Or some random cable next to Shep in the Alive scene as evidence?

Hmm that doesn't sound right to me. 

Things appearing in new scenes (after blackouts, transitions) is different from a graphic/character model instantaneously appearing or disappearing while you are looking at it.

I can conceed that. I still don't think the trees are anything more then a design oversight though. Can't prove it either way thought so I won't either bother trying. 

[Jarcander]

MassEffected555 wrote...

Jarcander wrote...

The citalde arms should be opened, obviously. If the Reapers are smart, they have already disabled the "elevator beam" so the only choice is to use Normandy to fly to the citadel and hope to find a hole somewhere to enter.

And once inside citadel... all bets are off. Anything could happen. ANYTHING! I'm so excited about this DLC that may or may not happen!

This indoctrination theory is awesome and this is coming from someone who supported the original ending.

Ok. Where does the Normandy land to pick up Shep? How does Shep, who just got beamafied from Harby, is confused from the indoc attempt even GET to the Normandy?

Normandy is perfectly capable of landing pretty much anywhere as long as Harbringer isn't near by. It might've left to go somewhere that is not near a pile of steaming human corpses and a beam that is now disabled to drop a few Dreadnaughts for fun.

Shepard's armour is pretty much gone, but he isn't dead, and if you made the correct choice in the final cutscene, you have shaken off the indoctrination attempt. Your two selected companions (who obviously survived, BW can't risk the rage if they get killed) will help you back to Normandy hovering near by.

[shnellegaming]

I say everything from when Harbringer Lands is a illusion and Shep will wake up just as Harbringer lands. 

[Jaze55]

Karnor00 wrote...

The codex entries aren't always accurate. They are simply statements of general understanding at the time they are written. Look at the ME1 codex entry for Rachi for example - it says that they are extinct when we know that isn't true if Shepard saves the queen.

So the fact that codex states that indoctrination is permanent and can't be resisted doesn't necessarily make it true - it just means that the author of the codex (i.e. someone within the ME universe) believed it to be true. Particularly as there are several examples of people overcoming indoctrination (at least temporarily) with willpower.

And if indoctrination was the failsafe perfect method that some are making it out to be then why do the Reapers bother fighting the organics to harvest them? Why not simply indoctrinate the whole galaxy and tell them to form an orderly queue in front of the harvester.

That might take a long time and I think people would notice big Reaper ships just hanging around while they were indoctrinating everyone. 

[Jaze55]

Jarcander wrote...

MassEffected555 wrote...

Jarcander wrote...

The citalde arms should be opened, obviously. If the Reapers are smart, they have already disabled the "elevator beam" so the only choice is to use Normandy to fly to the citadel and hope to find a hole somewhere to enter.

And once inside citadel... all bets are off. Anything could happen. ANYTHING! I'm so excited about this DLC that may or may not happen!

This indoctrination theory is awesome and this is coming from someone who supported the original ending.

Ok. Where does the Normandy land to pick up Shep? How does Shep, who just got beamafied from Harby, is confused from the indoc attempt even GET to the Normandy?

Normandy is perfectly capable of landing pretty much anywhere as long as Harbringer isn't near by. It might've left to go somewhere that is not near a pile of steaming human corpses and a beam that is now disabled to drop a few Dreadnaughts for fun.

Shepard's armour is pretty much gone, but he isn't dead, and if you made the correct choice in the final cutscene, you have shaken off the indoctrination attempt. Your two selected companions (who obviously survived, BW can't risk the rage if they get killed) will help you back to Normandy hovering near by.

The Normandy can land anywhere? Umm pretty sure a ship needs a nice clear spot to land on. There doesn't seem to be a clear spot next to Shep with all the rubble. Normandys little ship got shot down in the Cortez scene. All the rest of the people are retreating so you have to assume all the ships are too. Shepard looks pretty hurt so I doubt he can crawl all over the place looking for something to pick him up.

Dunno doesn't make any sense at all to me. 

[Thorn Harvestar]

MassEffected555 wrote...

I can conceed that. I still don't think the trees are anything more then a design oversight though. Can't prove it either way thought so I won't either bother trying. 

I too am not convinced by the trees. Things like Shepard only visibly surviving with one specific choice, or the Normandy inexplicably deserting you after your crew promises to basically follow you into hell, THOSE are the kind of nonsensical pieces that I think need to be the focus.

There's no good reason to show Shepard breathe at the end if there isn't something else to be explained after that scene. And it would be monumentally dumb for it to just be Shepard living out the rest of his days alone on a ruined Earth with his loved ones/crew lost in the galaxy.

[Jarcander]

MassEffected555 wrote...

Dunno doesn't make any sense at all to me. 

I wish you could see it the way I now see it... it is... so... perfect. *stops channeling imaginery Illusive Man*

[Jaze55]

Thorn Harvestar wrote...

MassEffected555 wrote...

I can conceed that. I still don't think the trees are anything more then a design oversight though. Can't prove it either way thought so I won't either bother trying. 

I too am not convinced by the trees. Things like Shepard only visibly surviving with one specific choice, or the Normandy inexplicably deserting you after your crew promises to basically follow you into hell, THOSE are the kind of nonsensical pieces that I think need to be the focus.

There's no good reason to show Shepard breathe at the end if there isn't something else to be explained after that scene. And it would be monumentally dumb for it to just be Shepard living out the rest of his days alone on a ruined Earth with his loved ones/crew lost in the galaxy.

LOL wouldn't it? I think it was supposed to symbolize hope. Shep, the hero, beat all odds and saved teh galaxy and just when you though he was dead... he isn't

But he is stuck in a pile of rubble and no one knows it and he has no way of comunicating with anyone so they can rescue him.... lol I know what BW was going for but man did they drop the ball. 

[geekjosh]

So is there one consistent "Indoctrination Theory". Like A happens, then B, and as a result we get C. Because I've seen some variations on this theory. My own personal one is different from some people.

To me, everything makes sense up until the magic floor elevator takes you up to the star child. I mean, couldn't this also be a dream and not indoctrination? Where everything up until the point where Shepard collapses while trying to reach the panel to help Hackett actually happens. He looks like he's lost a lot of blood and is definitely injured worse than he's ever been and definitely collapses (passed out?) while trying to hit the panel to fire up the Crucible, so couldn't he technically just be like dreaming?

They could just easily pick up with someone, possibly you LI, screaming at you over the frequency that Hackett was talking to you over. This would wake you up and you'd be on the floor in front of the panel. And then... well then there's tons of possibilities. It basically negates what happened in the "dream" state he had.

I don't know. But that's what I had in mind after I beat it for the 1st time. Not saying its right or even a good theory, just saying that's what my thoughts were.

[Jaze55]

Jarcander wrote...

MassEffected555 wrote...

Dunno doesn't make any sense at all to me. 

I wish you could see it the way I now see it... it is... so... perfect. *stops channeling imaginery Illusive Man*

All you have to do is tell me a way they can continue the story from there that makes sense. 

BUT the Crucible has to dock, which means the Citadel has to have it's arms open. 

Shepard has to be in a world of pain from being beamafied, and has to be a confused twit after "beating" indoctrination. That has to take a mental toll and saying he just pops up and is fine after is complete nonsense.

So yeah, just tell me how to make it fit and I will never say anything bad about the indoc theory again. 

[FearTheLiving]

Why are you asking us what would happen? We're not rewriting the ending just making the ending make sense and allow Bioware to create a new ending with DLC. It's possible and can be done right however I'm not gonna sit here and now and write you a whole new edition in DLC form to satisfy you as Bioware should be able to do that.

As to just making sense have him wake up in a hospital after the soldiers found him in some rubble ro something. He doesn't have to be as physically hurt as he is at the end because we don't know exactly what the beam did. For all we know it just knocked him out.

Modifié par FearTheLiving, 20 mars 2012 - 07:33 .

[Jaze55]

FearTheLiving wrote...

Why are you asking us what would happen? We're not rewriting the ending just making the ending make sense and allow Bioware to create a new ending with DLC. It's possible and can be done right however I'm not gonna sit here and now and write you a whole new edition in DLC form to satisfy you as Bioware should be able to do that.

The indoc theroy does, in fact, re write the ending. So while I hear what you are saying I dismiss it because

1- BW plainly stated that was the planned ending
2- any change is effectivly RE WRITING the ending.

Sorry. 

[kunzite]

Doesnt the Crucible (and I'm going by the movie with the coloured explosion) dock with the Citadel from underneath? It doesnt dock with the tower, like Sovreign did, it docks from the other side, which would be the 'bottom'.

Edit: My point being, does the arms actually have to be open?

Modifié par kunzite, 20 mars 2012 - 07:34 .

[Jaze55]

kunzite wrote...

Doesnt the Crucible (and I'm going by the movie with the coloured explosion) dock with the Citadel from underneath? It doesnt dock with the tower, like Sovreign did, it docks from the other side, which would be the 'bottom'.

It docks in the center. When the arms are open wide at the ending scene the Crucible docks right smack in the middle of the center ring.

The ONLY way to dock it is if the arms open fully. 

[Artaire]

Im pretty sure the ending sequence with the normandy bursting away from the mass relay is 'dreamt' because your squadmates are unharmed.I think something like- edi picking up your signature or something and alerting nearby troops or your squadmates (if still alive) to come and dig you out of the rubble alongside any survivors and off you go to do some more crazy shenanigans. Maybe the teleport is still there and you just go through? or maybe you go off to actually fight harbinger and chums in space and defeat them conventionally or with help from the crucible. I think throughout the game you get told the reapers have a weakspot linked to their engines/ mass shields or something, id have to replay again to get the exact lines but they can be defeated conventionally so who knows.

Thats my rough made up on the spot opinion xD