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[jeweledleah]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

jeweledleah wrote...

The Razman wrote...

Which is effectively the same as watching a movie while reading the plot synopsis on Wikipedia. I doubt I'm going to come up against any resistence in saying that such people's views and opinions on the emotional impact which a story has on you is irrelevent, since they're not experiencing it in a way which allows the narrative to work.

how kind of you to tell me that i and people like me are irrelevant.  and that our emotions somehow are not real.  thank you.  so much.  

That does appear to be what his argument boils down to. If you're not doing it the way he described, you're doing it "wrong," and your opinions can be safely dismissed as "unreasonable."

Was Fight Club a lesser film the second time you watched it? Was Mass Effect 2 a lesser game the second time you played it? If the narrative didn't "work" outside of the first viewing, people wouldn't watch movies or play games with branching plots more than once.

honestly?  fight club, or for that matter pulp fiction, or memento etc.. to me they get better with each subsequent viewing.  becasue you start noticing things, you may have missed on a first viewing.. and suddenly the picture changes and becomes clearer and reacher and you get these: "holy hell, so that's what it was all about?"  moments. 

but hey.  what do i know, right?

[The Razman]

jeweledleah wrote...

in case you got a mistaken impression? I was being sarcastic.

emotional response is still an emotional response, no matter how you get it or in how many playthroughs. its like having sex. first time maybe memorable, because hey - first time. but its doesn't mean all the other times are irrelevant. and most of the time? they are actually better.

... if you are reading a strategy guide spoiling every part of the game for yourself on your first playthrough so nothing comes as a surprise to you, that's your business. But you don't get to be taken seriously in any discussions on how the narrative works for emotional effect, because you haven't had a first playthrough of the game. When I say "I was shocked/surprised when this happened" or "This choice was really hard for me because I was thinking about what consequences might come up in the rest of the game" ... you haven't experienced that, because you were cheating.

So no, there's no reason why I should care about your opinion when it comes to the emotions of the story, because you haven't experienced it the way it was meant to be experienced. (And don't you dare say "You don't get to decide how people are meant to experience stuff" ... nobody, and I mean nobody, makes games/movies/books with the intent that their audience spoils everything in the story for themselves before they see it).

[jeweledleah]

Han Shot First wrote...

jeweledleah wrote...


wait... you want to play an outstanding commander... that still loses in the end? well.. we all have our preferences, i suppose..

Some Allied KIA figures for World War Two:

United Kingdom: 383,800

United States: 416,000

Soviet Union: 8,800,000 to 10,700,000

Canada: 45,400

Australia: 39,800

China: 3,000,000 to 4,000,000


Did the Allies lose World War Two?

Sorry, but a few casualties on Shepard's team (or Shepard dying himself) does not equal a loss.

right....  how many people were lost in ME3 so far, just from trailers alone?  remember that teaser?  millions in a first day.  I suppose that doesn't count. god forbid Shepard and his/her team make it and make the player feel like they won.

[bomber127]

mr_luga wrote...

I'd be rather upset with having a super happy ending my self where everyone just get away from the huge war with the reapers with some scratches.

I didndt expect that, nor do I acually want it. I just wanted a conclusion, to see what would happend with the rest of the galaxy after the war, an epilogue, something that makes what i've done through all 3 games feel worth my time

1)the unhappy ending is the reapers win wipe everyone out and it happens again in 50000 years
2)the supper happy ending, which we got, all civilizations get to evolve and live live with there triumphs and mistakeds not have what there end be predetermend for them... freedom from the enevitable. why cant we have a happy ending? we do!

[jeweledleah]

The Razman wrote...

jeweledleah wrote...

in case you got a mistaken impression? I was being sarcastic.

emotional response is still an emotional response, no matter how you get it or in how many playthroughs. its like having sex. first time maybe memorable, because hey - first time. but its doesn't mean all the other times are irrelevant. and most of the time? they are actually better.

... if you are reading a strategy guide spoiling every part of the game for yourself on your first playthrough so nothing comes as a surprise to you, that's your business. But you don't get to be taken seriously in any discussions on how the narrative works for emotional effect, because you haven't had a first playthrough of the game. When I say "I was shocked/surprised when this happened" or "This choice was really hard for me because I was thinking about what consequences might come up in the rest of the game" ... you haven't experienced that, because you were cheating.

So no, there's no reason why I should care about your opinion when it comes to the emotions of the story, because you haven't experienced it the way it was meant to be experienced. (And don't you dare say "You don't get to decide how people are meant to experience stuff" ... nobody, and I mean nobody, makes games/movies/books with the intent that their audience spoils everything in the story for themselves before they see it).

you know that whole, not caring about the opinion goes both ways, right?  what makes your opinion more valid?  why do you think that your way "first time is the only time that matters" is more valid then my desire for replayability?

that's right.

absolutely NOTHING.

[Korubrus]

The Razman wrote...

I've seen people say that there would be no problem with just having a happy ending as one possible ending. This is incorrect.

The nature of a game, or at least how we play games at present, is that we will always try to "win". Even in a story-based game like Mass Effect, we will take what we perceive to be the "best possible ending" and take that as the "winning" one. If you have a happy ending ... people will take that as the best possible one, completely negating the point of having an unhappy ending at all. There's no real bittersweet feeling if you can simply choose to turn it off and have a happy situation instead. We've already seen this in ME3. The "secret ending" has been seized upon by many people as being the "perfect" one. If you give gamers a sniff of an ending that works out better for the player's goals than the others ... they'll take it as a loosely defined canonical one.

If you want to have an emotional, bittersweet ending ... you can't have a button which says "press here to have a happy ending instead".

EDIT: Sidenote - This is only a response to people who say "why can't we have a happy ending?" Not to sound harsh, but I really don't care about anyone who's going to come in and say "But it wasn't that it wasn't a happy ending, I didn't like it because ...". This thread wasn't for that.

I'm sick of people saying "Shepard has to die" or there "Has to be a sad ending".

The words "Shepard has to" anything is reduntant. Thats the point of a role playing game!
You decide, your decisions decide. You shouldn't be forced into  bottleneck conclusion. End of storey!

[bomber127]

yes i know i can't spell.

[Korubrus]

bomber127 wrote...

mr_luga wrote...

I'd be rather upset with having a super happy ending my self where everyone just get away from the huge war with the reapers with some scratches.

I didndt expect that, nor do I acually want it. I just wanted a conclusion, to see what would happend with the rest of the galaxy after the war, an epilogue, something that makes what i've done through all 3 games feel worth my time

1)the unhappy ending is the reapers win wipe everyone out and it happens again in 50000 years
2)the supper happy ending, which we got, all civilizations get to evolve and live live with there triumphs and mistakeds not have what there end be predetermend for them... freedom from the enevitable. why cant we have a happy ending? we do!

Except for the - everyone stranded on earth starving to death... Joker and James are tag teaming my LI Ashley on some remote garden planet called "WTF"... All technology (And implants in most people - including biotic implants) is destroyed...

Yeah... I can see how that is a super happy ending /end sarcasm.

[The Razman]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

jeweledleah wrote...

The Razman wrote...

Which is effectively the same as watching a movie while reading the plot synopsis on Wikipedia. I doubt I'm going to come up against any resistence in saying that such people's views and opinions on the emotional impact which a story has on you is irrelevent, since they're not experiencing it in a way which allows the narrative to work.

how kind of you to tell me that i and people like me are irrelevant.  and that our emotions somehow are not real.  thank you.  so much.  

That does appear to be what his argument boils down to. If you're not doing it the way he described, you're doing it "wrong," and your opinions can be safely dismissed as "unreasonable."

Was Fight Club a lesser film the second time you watched it, (spoiler: even knowing that Jack and Tyler Durden were the same person)? Was Mass Effect 2 a lesser game the second time you played it? If the narrative didn't "work" outside of the first viewing, people wouldn't watch movies or play games with branching plots more than once.

You're attempting to claim that the first playthrough isn't the most important. I don't care about multiple playthroughs or multiple watchings of movies. They're irrelevent to this thread.

What on earth is your point, seriously? I've asked you twice now, and I can't seem to get it out of you. It's looking like a Chewbacca Defence right now.

[Iakus]

[quote]The Razman wrote...

[quote]iakus wrote...

And I can say that your own assertions have no more basis in fact than mine.  You say tragic and happy endings can't coexist, I say they can.  In the end, it depends on the player.  For evidence, I present our seperate asssertions.[/quote]
... is that the level of reasoning you're at? Saying "Well I can just say you're wrong and since everything is an opinion and all opinions are equal that makes my opinion just as valid as yours so ha"? <_<[/quote]


...Yes?... 

Because all you're saying is "they can't exist together" and I'm saying "yes they can" So where does that leave us?  I can't force you to accept that happy and tragic ends can exist side by side, and you sure aren't showing me any reason to think they can't so...

[quote]
[quote]I also assert that t this is supposed to be a role playing game, where the player assembles his or her own story, which can be heroic or villainous, happy or sad or bittersweet.  This is not an action game or a shooter where your sole purpose is to navigate from one level to the next to unlock a story segment.[/quote]
You're claiming that non-linearity is a necessity of the role-playing game genre. Do you really, and think about it carefully, want to make that claim?

Because I have quite a long list of role-playing games here which says otherwise.[/quote]

Bolded the part you may have missed.  We're told our decisions mattter, but in the end, all it affected was the color of the explosion at the end.  In the end, Shepard is stuck on the Kobyashi Maru.

[quote]
[quote]I also assert that bittersweet is a sliding scale, and what is bittersweet to one person is unbearably bitter to others.  Or "unicorns and rainbows" to another.  As we've seen in this very thread.  You may think the ending(s) are perfectly fine as far as bitter and sweet go.  I find them far, far too bitter for my taste and find they go very much against the trilogy as a whole.  This is where having more and more varied endings would have come in handy.  [/quote]
By that logic we should just stick a different ending on every movie, to suit everybody's tastes.[/quote]

If the time ever comes where the audience has a say in how a movie's storyline progresses, that may in fact happen.  But for now a movie audience is strictly a passive participant.

[quote]
Having multiple endings is not a problem. Suggesting that having a happy ending wouldn't invalidate the unhappy one is. You've yet to actually say anything about that beyond "No it wouldn't."[/quote] 

And you are not saying much beyond "Yes it would"

Maybe this is why we can't argue with the Starchild...

And again, "happy" is a sliding scale.  For some people, an entirely happy ending is impossible simply based on events that took place in teh game.  Having Shepard and the Normandy crew survive would tip the scale from "bitter" to "bittersweet" to them.


[quote]Sorry if disagreeing you invalidates my opinion.
[/quote]
Not backing up your opinion with anything is what invalidates your opinion, not disagreeing with me. Our opinions are not equal here ... I'm offering reasoning, and you're offering denials. You need some counter-reasoning, or you're not offering anything of worth.
[/quote]

I'm backing up my assertions as well as you're backing up yours.  You are saying that people will always pick a "happy" ending over a tragic ending.  Where's your reasoning in that?  Back that up!  

I assert that people will play both, either because they like the tragic end better or just to see what it's like.  And I have the sdame evidence oyu do:  Because I say so!

[Han Shot First]

jeweledleah wrote...

right....  how many people were lost in ME3 so far, just from trailers alone?  remember that teaser?  millions in a first day.  I suppose that doesn't count. god forbid Shepard and his/her team make it and make the player feel like they won.

Millions and billions of people you never met, and don't care about.

Sure you might feel something when reading a statistic, but it isn't the same as losing characters that you've come to know and like. While Thane & Mordin packed a punch, neither was on the squad in ME2, and neither dies in the end game.

The finale of the series needs the same emotional impact that those two scenes had. And you aren't going to get that with every person on the Normandy going through the Reapers like Grant through Richmond.

And you don't need to have everyone survive on Shepard's team to 'win.' A win is saving the galaxy from the Reapers, not in saving Shepard, or Garrus, or any other individual on the team.

Modifié par Han Shot First, 12 mai 2012 - 07:20 .

[The Razman]

jeweledleah wrote...

you know that whole, not caring about the opinion goes both ways, right?  what makes your opinion more valid?

The fact that I've experienced the game the way it was meant to, the way that all narratives from the beginning of history were meant to. Without spoiling the whole thing of any surprises, twists, shocks, or anything else that the narrative wants to do.

If you haven't experienced any of those, you can't participate in a conversation about any of those. If that upsets you, too bad. Shouldn't have ruined it for yourself beforehand.

[DeinonSlayer]

The Razman wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

jeweledleah wrote...

The Razman wrote...

Which is effectively the same as watching a movie while reading the plot synopsis on Wikipedia. I doubt I'm going to come up against any resistence in saying that such people's views and opinions on the emotional impact which a story has on you is irrelevent, since they're not experiencing it in a way which allows the narrative to work.

how kind of you to tell me that i and people like me are irrelevant.  and that our emotions somehow are not real.  thank you.  so much.  

That does appear to be what his argument boils down to. If you're not doing it the way he described, you're doing it "wrong," and your opinions can be safely dismissed as "unreasonable."

Was Fight Club a lesser film the second time you watched it, (spoiler: even knowing that Jack and Tyler Durden were the same person)? Was Mass Effect 2 a lesser game the second time you played it? If the narrative didn't "work" outside of the first viewing, people wouldn't watch movies or play games with branching plots more than once.

You're attempting to claim that the first playthrough isn't the most important. I don't care about multiple playthroughs or multiple watchings of movies. They're irrelevent to this thread.

What on earth is your point, seriously? I've asked you twice now, and I can't seem to get it out of you. It's looking like a Chewbacca Defence right now.

To you, evidently, the first playthrough is the most important. That's your opinion. I don't share it. If the first experience is so bad that I don't care to repeat it, something has gone wrong. I'm sorry if you're having trouble wrapping your head around this, but to me, replayability is how you get your sixty bucks worth out of a game.

[The Razman]

iakus wrote...

Because all you're saying is "they can't exist together" and I'm saying "yes they can"

*sigh* I just realised I don't have to talk to anyone not paying attention to anything I say.

It's a liberating feeling.

[Korubrus]

The Razman wrote...

jeweledleah wrote...

you know that whole, not caring about the opinion goes both ways, right?  what makes your opinion more valid?

The fact that I've experienced the game the way it was meant to, the way that all narratives from the beginning of history were meant to. Without spoiling the whole thing of any surprises, twists, shocks, or anything else that the narrative wants to do.

If you haven't experienced any of those, you can't participate in a conversation about any of those. If that upsets you, too bad. Shouldn't have ruined it for yourself beforehand.

Whoa... you must have played the game as you have (aka: have the same opinion you have) to be in this conversation?

ME3 is a standalone game. There is no reason why a newcomer to the series cant play ME3 and have a valid opinion on that game.

Your thoughts on validity seem to dictate replayability is impossible for ME3... Yet one of the majour selling points is ME3's replayability... Just think about it, on your second playthrough you loose the shock, plot twists and you get to experiance depression at the ending again...

Modifié par Korubrus, 12 mai 2012 - 07:23 .

[The Razman]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

To you, evidently, the first playthrough is the most important. That's your opinion. I don't share it.

You are a vast, vast minority then.

Fin.

[Dan Dark]

The Razman wrote...

jeweledleah wrote...

you know that whole, not caring about the opinion goes both ways, right?  what makes your opinion more valid?

The fact that I've experienced the game the way it was meant to, the way that all narratives from the beginning of history were meant to. Without spoiling the whole thing of any surprises, twists, shocks, or anything else that the narrative wants to do.

If you haven't experienced any of those, you can't participate in a conversation about any of those. If that upsets you, too bad. Shouldn't have ruined it for yourself beforehand.

Okay... I knew absolutely nothing about ME3 before I played it; avoided the wiki, news, didn't even talk to people! I experienced the narrative "the way you're supposed to"... and yet I am of basically the exact same opinion they are regarding the ending. How do you explain that?

[jeweledleah]

The Razman wrote...

jeweledleah wrote...

you know that whole, not caring about the opinion goes both ways, right?  what makes your opinion more valid?

The fact that I've experienced the game the way it was meant to, the way that all narratives from the beginning of history were meant to. Without spoiling the whole thing of any surprises, twists, shocks, or anything else that the narrative wants to do.

If you haven't experienced any of those, you can't participate in a conversation about any of those. If that upsets you, too bad. Shouldn't have ruined it for yourself beforehand.

you are assuming that I "ruined" it.  no.  I didn't.  your definition of ruined is not the same as my definition of ruined.  naturaly.  which is the whole point of being able to play the way we see fit, and having variety of choices.

choices in a story might not be the only requirement of a game to be called an rpg.  but it WAS the selling point of Mass Effect specificaly.  a lot of people bought the game BECAUSE of it, becasue they expected to replay it, due to different choices making for different stories.

ergo.  replayability IS in fact relevant to this thread.

[Iakus]

Han Shot First wrote...

Maybe some of us was want to roleplay a Shepard that is an outstanding combat leader rather than one that is a fool or indecisive. The sort that makes all the right tactical decisions, but it isn't enough to save everyone. Or maybe he loses people (or his own life) because he made the right tactical decisions.

In war people die even when a leader makes the right call, and sometimes because of it. He might even lose his own life because of it. In the US Marine Corps the responsibilities of leadership can summarized by two priorities:

1. Mission Accomplishment

2. Troop Welfare

While the welfare of the people serving under your command is one of your most important priorities, it is always secondary to mission accomplishment. While I'm using the US Marine Corps as example, those two priorities are no different for any Western military organization.  And it is a cold, grim reality that sometimes you have to lose people to achieve objectives.

While Mass Effect may be Sci Fi, I think the end run is one aspect where the story would suffer if it leaned too heavily towards 'Space Opera.' For the ending to have any emotional impact, victory should come with a price.

An ending that combines both a 100% survival rate among the Normandy's crew *and* the least possible destruction to the galaxy (Big Ben surviving?) automatically renders any ending with less than 100% survival rate a less desirable ending, precisely because people would only die when Shepard makes tactical blunders. I prefer Virmire to any of the ME2 death scenes, because it is a scenario where no matter what call Shepard makes he is going to lose someone. In ME2 in order to lose people Shepard has to make bad tactical decisions or fail to make proper strategic preparations.

And in ME3 people do die even when Shepard makes the right call.  In at least one case, because of it.

And while these things can and do occur in real life, I should remind you that this is in fact a game, which is supposed to entertain, not make people depressed at the futility of their actions.

[jeweledleah]

The Razman wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

To you, evidently, the first playthrough is the most important. That's your opinion. I don't share it.

You are a vast, vast minority then.

Fin.

are you sure about that minority thing?

[DeinonSlayer]

The Razman wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

To you, evidently, the first playthrough is the most important. That's your opinion. I don't share it.

You are a vast, vast minority then.

Fin.

Funny how you cut out the rest of what I had to say in that post. The latter portion was the key point. It's almost as if you're not listening to me. But then...

The Razman wrote...

*sigh* I just realised I don't have to talk to anyone not paying attention to anything I say.

It's a liberating feeling.

Hey, two can play at this game! Or am I doing it "wrong?"

[The Razman]

Dan Dark wrote...

Okay... I knew absolutely nothing about ME3 before I played it; avoided the wiki, news, didn't even talk to people! I experienced the narrative "the way you're supposed to"... and yet I am of basically the exact same opinion they are regarding the ending. How do you explain that?

... what?

[The Razman]

jeweledleah wrote...

The Razman wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

To you, evidently, the first playthrough is the most important. That's your opinion. I don't share it.

You are a vast, vast minority then.

Fin.

are you sure about that minority thing?

Yes.

[Iakus]

DeinonSlayer wrote...
To you, evidently, the first playthrough is the most important. That's your opinion. I don't share it. If the first experience is so bad that I don't care to repeat it, something has gone wrong. I'm sorry if you're having trouble wrapping your head around this, but to me, replayability is how you get your sixty bucks worth out of a game.

Agreed.

Every playthrough should be the most important playthrough.

[jeweledleah]

so far I've yet to see anyone make a case that would convince me that
happyish ending wouldn't fit Mass Effect narrative. not... a single... one.

oh well... I think I'll go back to real life where i can actually make choices that result in positive outcomes, when I make enough effort. how very unrealistic, and emotionally unengaging. to actually succeed as a result of your own actions...... only despair and sadness are valid feelings after all, yes?