649 réponses à ce sujet

[Han Shot First]

Random Jerkface wrote...

That being said, a narrative is not facile or childish simply because no one died. Heroic sacrifices are just as clichéd.

I don't disagree.

It all depends on the story.  A RotJ ending would be thematically inconsistent with Mass Effect 3 however.

[vixvicco]

Haasth wrote...

I don't care for a happy ending.
I just want one that makes sense and doesn't involve Space Magic.

Mass Effect 3 doesn't have an ending. It has a series of ridiculous gibberish filled with plot holes and oversights.

I agree with this. I can accept Shepard being dead, if its done well. There are perfectly good movies/games where the protagonist died and I hold the game to high regard. I don't like the Space Magic either. The ending just needed to be good, not happy. Happy and good are two different things, really. I can happy but badly written, but it can be sad/drepressing and still be quite well done and intelligent.

[Yezdigerd]

The Razman wrote...

Yezdigerd wrote...

I must say I was amazed there wasn't a "happy" ending. The medium's strength is the ability to craft your own story. You can cater to different groups this way unlike say a movie or book. I would think the great majority of the consumers would have liked to see Shepard retire starting a family or something and not giving the consumers what they
want is like.. stupid.. if you want to sell games.

Haven't we moved past thinking of the gaming medium as something which has to do one thing or another? Just because games can offer choice doesn't mean they should. They offer massive potential for alternative narratives. Let's not tie them down to having to give people choice just because "it's what the medium does".

Uh? You are the one arguing the medium must do things one way. The chose your own adventure format of Mass effect is what offer potential for alternative narratives. Not taking advantage of this decreases immersion and replayability.
Choices are what roleplaying games are about. A roleplayer is perfectly content picking a supoptimal option when they feel it enchances the character and the story.

[The Razman]

Yezdigerd wrote...

Uh? You are the one arguing the medium must do things one way.

No, I'm not. I'm saynig that all narrative has to do things one way. If it wants to achieve the effect which Mass Effect 3 wanted to achieve, anyway.

[Yezdigerd]

Also people talk of "bittersweet" ending. Unfortunately Mass Effect 3 has what is called a "Downer ending" not a bittersweet one. "Happily ever after" is yet a third type of ending.

What is what can be discussed of course, TVthropes says this about it:

In short, if the characters are worse off than when they started it's a Downer Ending. If they're better off, but the work still ends on a melancholy note, it's a Bittersweet Ending.

The central cast of Mass Effect has for practical purposes certainly lost more then they gained since the beginning of the story.

[Yezdigerd]

The Razman wrote...

Yezdigerd wrote...

Uh? You are the one arguing the medium must do things one way.

No, I'm not. I'm saynig that all narrative has to do things one way. If it wants to achieve the effect which Mass Effect 3 wanted to achieve, anyway.

Sorry but I very much doubt the creators of the game wanted to achieve what you think they wanted to achieve. I think Hudson and co killed Shepard of to save money on cutscenes, not to fullfill some artistic vision.

[iamthedave3]

The Razman wrote...

Yezdigerd wrote...

Uh? You are the one arguing the medium must do things one way.

No, I'm not. I'm saynig that all narrative has to do things one way. If it wants to achieve the effect which Mass Effect 3 wanted to achieve, anyway.

Pissing off a huge part of the fanbase and creating an ending set to go down in history as one of the worst in videogame history?

I think the question is more why they would want to achieve that effect, in that case.

[sansuni]

why can't we have both? i'm not aganist bad endings, but i wan't a happy one.. other mass effect games had this and they could add an optional good ending without ruining artistic integrity, but no! they rather make us fight over this.. i'm sure "they" are enjoying this somehow..

Modifié par sansuni, 12 mai 2012 - 11:58 .

[Michale_Jackson]

nobody like's junk shot endings and that's what ME3's ending is.

Video games are suppose to make you feel proud when you beat a game, not feel like you've just wasted your entire time playing the game.

[iamthedave3]

slyguy200 wrote...

The Razman wrote...

Jesus. Hard to dig out the posts which are any worth amid ... yeah. <_<

...

Really? I see this as being more like you trying to come up with a reason for ignoring peoples counterpoints which you can't dispute against because you know that they are true.

Oh Slyguy, you are SUCH a cynic.

[Grimwick]

Han Shot First wrote...

Random Jerkface wrote...

That being said, a narrative is not facile or childish simply because no one died. Heroic sacrifices are just as clichéd.

I don't disagree.

It all depends on the story.  A RotJ ending would be thematically inconsistent with Mass Effect 3 however.

Maybe. But a large theme of ME has been of survival and victory against possible odds. I would argue that Shepard surviving would be consistent with this particular theme, whilst the death of billions in a huge battle would be consistent with the immense threat of the reapers.

Remember, we only have a chance against the reapers because we luckily found the crucible. Using the crucible and surviving doesn't undermine anything but the strength of the storyline - not it's thematics.

I believe that a not-quite RotJ ending would fit very well. One in which survival and being reuinited with your friends is mixed in with the guilt, sadness and hope at the end of the war and the loss of so many friends.

Heroic sacrifice isn't necessary here and I believe that it isn't even sacrifice at all if we are forced into it.

[Oldbones2]

I think the EARN your happy ending trope would be very applicable to the Mass Effect universe and ME3 in general.

And I do mean earn it.


Not just EMS, or reputation, you would have to have chosen specific story paths and really played the hell out of the game.


However, back to the OP.

Your argument is flawed Raz.

It suggests that BW create a perfect ending. But what is being asked for is an ending choice that is simply more uplifting. Not necessarily better.

And not everyone would choose it. Right now BSN can't even decide which current color is the superior ending. Destroy seems most popular. However Bioware themselves clearly prefer synthesis. I chose control, and still believe it was the only correct choice.

[Subject M]

Let me start of by quoting what I written eralier in this thread, just as a reminder so I do not have to type something similar again:

Subject M wrote...

Look...

I think we all deep down understand that everything has consequences and that no ending should be without its own pros and cons in a game like this. But we also know that people have different preferences when it comes to endings. Some people like "happy" ending and other people loves to watch their hero go down in a blaze of glory and so on and so forth.

So what does all this mean?

It means that if Shepard survives and have blue babies, a house on Rannoch or adopts a krogan baby with Garrus, there have to be costs associated to these endings.
I would have suggested a logical approach here:
You need to be highly prepared to survive, but preparation takes time, all that gathering allies, resources and so on would be one part of the scale and on the other, Earth itself. The longer you wait, the more people dies. In short, bringing the full might of the galaxy upon the reapers and ending up surviving with your LI and babies and so on, would mean that Humans would more or less become an "endangered species" Reduced to a couple a couple of hundred thousands survivors or something.

It also means that people will always look for the ending that resonates strongest with them.


>The Razman

I guess the point was that some people would prefer or think it is "better"  or more "in line with character" with Shepard dying and the humanity ending up more numerous while others would similarly think Shepard living with blue babies and what not is the best ending, but with humanity decimated. You can throw in variables such as Anderson dies, if Shepard lives and vice versa, but I must make clear that I fully reject the idea that tragedy and not satisfaction is or should be what the developers wants to instil in players.

I think most of us expected them to honor the tradition and thematic style of the series at the end.
I would personally never have invested so much time and effort in a series like this if I suspected the ending not lining up with the rest of the story.

Now, , if I understood it correctly, to The Razman, the presence of a realizable "happy" alternative in a story/game effectively ruins the effect of the "tragic" ending as he believes that people who do not like or prefer that ending will choose another ending.

Its true in the sense that if the developers do not want to give the players any other ending then one that is tragic or otherwise a Kobayashi Maru-moment, providing them with alternatives that allows them "happy endings" or whatever, would effectively allow the players to escape the "full weight" of the tragic ending.

But as I mentioned earlier, such a decision makes no sense in a game like this. However, what does make sense, and what should be respected, is a branching storyline that in every alternative respects the setting and themes of both the overall story as well as its own "path-specific" unique themes. Thats why a Ruthless renegade playthrough of the trilogy should result in a very different type of ending then a heroic paragon playthrough but with shared basic/main setting, themes ans plot.

Of course, a player should not be unnecessarily punished for earlier mistakes (such as choosing to save the "wrong VS" for a desired outcome of the ending of the trilogy for example, there should always be some options so that you can make some adjustments and get back on desired course towards your preferred ending), but there should also be a noticeable cost to having made the wrong decisions, you might not have the time or resources to fix all of your earlier mistakes so you must choose and get your priorities straight.

And again as I mentioned earlier, the general setting in mass effect 3 is one that hardly allows for a 100% happy ending crowned with partying with Ewoks under fireworks.

Modifié par Subject M, 12 mai 2012 - 02:58 .

[3DandBeyond]

I want to ask anyone who thinks that a happy ending is too sappy and silly to explain something to me. What is the scene of Joker and friends stepping out onto the Jungle planet if not sappy and silly? What about the Stargazer and kid. I suppose all that is deep and meaningful, gutsy and gritty, eh.

[NOD-INFORMER37]

The Razman wrote...

NOD-INFORMER37 wrote...

For you information, I have in fact read the OP, and many comments when I first posted(I just dont want to read every flippin' page, sorry)  

And I've seen that argument before, in my opinion the "answer" you provided isnt a good enough one to deprive other, optional endings ranging "Unhappy" to 'Happy" from everyone else. Adding them wouldnt take away from the emotional impact of the ending already implemented(The "bittersweet feeling" you like), it would simply add different ones.

Even on the first page, there's plenty of stuff which makes posting what you just did pointless. It's been refuted already, many times.

Look, I'm just trying to save us time here. You're rehashing posts which have already been made, and it's a waste of your time and mine. You can't have a happy ending and a sad ending with the option to choose which one you want, because having the option to simply not let the bad thing happen robs the pain of all the emotional power it has over you. If we could flip a switch in our heads to not feel bereavement, then people dying wouldn't have power over us. It's as simple as that.

Look at all the games we consider to have classic emotional, heartbreaking, tragic moments. Final Fantasy 7, Red Dead Redemption, Half Life 2, Mother 3, The Darkness, Shadow of the Colossus, Grand Theft Auto IV even ... none of them have the choice to simply not let the bad thing happen. For a reason.

There's no point in having this discussion without tackling the main point of it, which has been stated many times: You can't have an off-switch for pain without it being robbed of it's emotional power over you.

Umm did you even read what I, or any of us have been saying this whole time? According to you, everyone’s opinion here is pointless but yours.

I already said that "answer" you posted is not a good enough one for having other endings to choose from taken away from everyone else.

“You can't have an off-switch for pain without it being robbed of it's emotional power over you.”

That is not a fact. That is your opinion. One which I and many here strongly disagree with. You say a happy and sad ending cant co-exist without ruining the emotional experience. But, for many of us, they indeed can and have.Having an ability to decide how the outcome of a story goes doesn’t mean it devalues the emotional impact of the story itself. It isn’t an "off-switch" to whatever emotional response the plot dishes out. (Well hey maybe for you it is but don’t generalize)

Mass Effect is an RPG and works differently from all those games you listed. In other games you’re just along for the ride and have little to no control how the story will end up. Not to say those plots are bad or anything, but the whole point of Mass Effect/RPG games is to be able to make choices and shape the story around the players character and decisions. The player works their way up to whatever outcome they are trying to achieve, they create victories/make sacrifices so they can try and obtain the closure they most they desire.(People do the same in real life do they not?) So if anything I think having that kind of choice gives the player MORE of an emotional impact. I wont pretend you or everyone experiences it that way, but hey thats the beauty in which alot of ppl play the game for. The devs may have wanted everyone to experience that one particular ending in ME3, which I can understand, but it makes zero sense why they would go disrespect the entire series just to make one singular ending with an illusion different ones.

You also say that everyone will “just choose the “perfect” ending” if given the option….where are you getting this from?(again, don’t generalize) The “perfect ending” Its only a matter of perspective. I’m sure there will be some who will go with whatever they consider the “happiest” ending to try and escape the current one, but that is THEIR choice and they have every right to do so.

Even so how exactly does that affect YOUR emotional experience with the story? If you think ME3’s ending was a fitting end to it all, then are you not be able to choose that ending for yourself if there were other options? I don’t see why not.

Modifié par NOD-INFORMER37, 12 mai 2012 - 04:48 .

[Fukyourending]

ugh I'm so glad as many people hate that garabe ending as I do. I can't get over them all sitting in a room and saying yeah this ending is good we are so artisic and great game makers... My dog can poo out a better ending that that.

[Fukyourending]

And I'm sure the guy who made this post is a troll working for ea or bioware trying to point out why the ending is complete garbage

[AlanC9]

Subject M wrote...

Of course, a player should not be unnecessarily punished for earlier mistakes (such as choosing to save the "wrong VS" for a desired outcome of the ending of the trilogy for example, there should always be some options so that you can make some adjustments and get back on desired course towards your preferred ending), 

When you talk about "your preferred ending" you lose me. Who's the "your" in that sentence? Is it me, or the Shep I'm playing?

[Father_Jerusalem]

Fukyourending wrote...

And I'm sure the guy who made this post is a troll working for ea or bioware trying to point out why the ending is complete garbage

Are you really going to be calling someone else a troll, with your user name?

Really?

REALLY?

[Grimwick]

Father_Jerusalem wrote...

Fukyourending wrote...

And I'm sure the guy who made this post is a troll working for ea or bioware trying to point out why the ending is complete garbage

Are you really going to be calling someone else a troll, with your user name?

Really?

REALLY?

Don't listen to him - he gives people who actually think a bad name. It's people like him who have led to perjorative generelisations on both sides of the argument.

[NOD-INFORMER37]

Father_Jerusalem wrote...

Fukyourending wrote...

And I'm sure the guy who made this post is a troll working for ea or bioware trying to point out why the ending is complete garbage

Are you really going to be calling someone else a troll, with your user name?

Really?

REALLY?

lol, FJ does has a point 

[Father_Jerusalem]

Grimwick wrote...

Father_Jerusalem wrote...

Fukyourending wrote...

And I'm sure the guy who made this post is a troll working for ea or bioware trying to point out why the ending is complete garbage

Are you really going to be calling someone else a troll, with your user name?

Really?

REALLY?

Don't listen to him - he gives people who actually think a bad name. It's people like him who have led to perjorative generelisations on both sides of the argument.

Oh don't worry, I'm not. I just love the irony there.

[Subject M]

AlanC9 wrote...

Subject M wrote...

Of course, a player should not be unnecessarily punished for earlier mistakes (such as choosing to save the "wrong VS" for a desired outcome of the ending of the trilogy for example, there should always be some options so that you can make some adjustments and get back on desired course towards your preferred ending), 

When you talk about "your preferred ending" you lose me. Who's the "your" in that sentence? Is it me, or the Shep I'm playing?

Sorry about not being clear. "towards the prefered ending of that player"