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[Iakus]

Han Shot First wrote...

At any rate, everyone surviving is not a requirement for a happy ending. You can find plenty of examples in film or in books of happy endings where the hero dies, just as you find plenty of examples of happy endings where everyone lives. Whether or not the ending is a happy one often depends on circumstances in the story beyond just the lives of the protagonists.

Not a requirement, no, but it has to fit the story.  When people say "or Shepard to survive "all synthetics have to die" or "Squadmates must die" or "The Normandy must be destroyed!" That's just arbitrary tragedy.  That's saying "Your ending is too happy so I'm gonna smite stuff until it's sadder"  

The "epilogue slides" mentioned a page or two back were actually pretty good.  Yeah it's sad Joker dies in the red ending, but it made sense in the context of what happened in the game.  I came as a consequence of the actions taken (though RGB is still a  major issue I have)

I also disagree that enough people had died in the story. Virmire for example was five years and three games ago. It has no emotional impact on the conclusion of Mass Effect 3. Neither does Thane or Mordin's scenes for that matter, because they occur in the middle of the game.

And Ben Kenobi's death was two movies and six years earlier. The two characters you mentioned have probably two of the most powerful scenes in the game You're also forgetting about one character death that takes place just before RGB who's scene is right up there as well in terms of being emotional.  Actually I found both deaths to be quite emotional in that scene, much to my suprise.

[Subject M]

iakus wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...

At any rate, everyone surviving is not a requirement for a happy ending. You can find plenty of examples in film or in books of happy endings where the hero dies, just as you find plenty of examples of happy endings where everyone lives. Whether or not the ending is a happy one often depends on circumstances in the story beyond just the lives of the protagonists.

Not a requirement, no, but it has to fit the story.  When people say "or Shepard to survive "all synthetics have to die" or "Squadmates must die" or "The Normandy must be destroyed!" That's just arbitrary tragedy.  That's saying "Your ending is too happy so I'm gonna smite stuff until it's sadder"  

The "epilogue slides" mentioned a page or two back were actually pretty good.  Yeah it's sad Joker dies in the red ending, but it made sense in the context of what happened in the game.  I came as a consequence of the actions taken (though RGB is still a  major issue I have)

I also disagree that enough people had died in the story. Virmire for example was five years and three games ago. It has no emotional impact on the conclusion of Mass Effect 3. Neither does Thane or Mordin's scenes for that matter, because they occur in the middle of the game.

And Ben Kenobi's death was two movies and six years earlier. The two characters you mentioned have probably two of the most powerful scenes in the game You're also forgetting about one character death that takes place just before RGB who's scene is right up there as well in terms of being emotional.  Actually I found both deaths to be quite emotional in that scene, much to my suprise.

Lots of spoilers in ths thread.  So I guess the damage is already done.

Let it be known that Thanes and Mordins scenes moved me to tears. Grunts scene was equally powerful, but turned the emotions to an outburst of joy.

[Il Divo]

Subject M wrote...

iakus wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...

At any rate, everyone surviving is not a requirement for a happy ending. You can find plenty of examples in film or in books of happy endings where the hero dies, just as you find plenty of examples of happy endings where everyone lives. Whether or not the ending is a happy one often depends on circumstances in the story beyond just the lives of the protagonists.

Not a requirement, no, but it has to fit the story.  When people say "or Shepard to survive "all synthetics have to die" or "Squadmates must die" or "The Normandy must be destroyed!" That's just arbitrary tragedy.  That's saying "Your ending is too happy so I'm gonna smite stuff until it's sadder"  

The "epilogue slides" mentioned a page or two back were actually pretty good.  Yeah it's sad Joker dies in the red ending, but it made sense in the context of what happened in the game.  I came as a consequence of the actions taken (though RGB is still a  major issue I have)

I also disagree that enough people had died in the story. Virmire for example was five years and three games ago. It has no emotional impact on the conclusion of Mass Effect 3. Neither does Thane or Mordin's scenes for that matter, because they occur in the middle of the game.

And Ben Kenobi's death was two movies and six years earlier. The two characters you mentioned have probably two of the most powerful scenes in the game You're also forgetting about one character death that takes place just before RGB who's scene is right up there as well in terms of being emotional.  Actually I found both deaths to be quite emotional in that scene, much to my suprise.

Lots of spoilers in ths thread.  So I guess the damage is already done.

Let it be known that Thanes and Mordins scenes moved me to tears. Grunts scene was equally powerful, but turned the emotions to an outburst of joy.

Agreed. Probably the best death sequences Bioware has ever done.

[The Razman]

Subject M wrote...

Now, , if I understood it correctly, to The Razman, the presence of a realizable "happy" alternative in a story/game effectively ruins the effect of the "tragic" ending as he believes that people who do not like or prefer that ending will choose another ending.

Close. It's not what people will directly choose, it's merely to do with the emotional impact of what you do. I think I've got a concise way of explaining this.

Tragedy is not tragedy if you want it to happen, correct? So if the tragedy's only happening because you picked the option over the happy one ... then where's the emotional impact of it? The essense of tragedy is something which happens in the narrative against your desires (we want the star-crossed lovers to end up together, which is why it hurts when they die ... we want Aerith to have a happy ending with the rest of us, which is why it hurts when she's killed, etc). If you make the tragic narreme optional, it holds no power over you. You have a ready-made escape from the pain in the alternate ending.

The rest of your post demonstrates you understand this anyway, but I thought I'd clarify it for everyone else.

As for it not making sense to do this in a branched storyline, I can accept that as a complaint. Mass Effect is a story based on choice, and people are going to be annoyed if you don't have choice. But I don't think that changes the diminishing effect on the tragic ending that putting that choice in would have.

[Iakus]

Subject M wrote...

Lots of spoilers in ths thread.  So I guess the damage is already done.

Let it be known that Thanes and Mordins scenes moved me to tears. Grunts scene was equally powerful, but turned the emotions to an outburst of joy.

I know, I'm trying to be as vague as possible while still getting the point across.

The point being that there are plenty of emotionally tragic scenes in the game, and Shepard's should be able to come out alive (which would make for a more "uplifting" ending) without artificially inflating the body count for the sake of tragedy.

Modifié par iakus, 12 mai 2012 - 05:59 .

[Il Divo]

The Razman wrote...

Tragedy is not tragedy if you want it to happen, correct? So if the tragedy's only happening because you picked the option over the happy one ... then where's the emotional impact of it? The essense of tragedy is something which happens in the narrative against your desires (we want the star-crossed lovers to end up together, which is why it hurts when they die ... we want Aerith to have a happy ending with the rest of us, which is why it hurts when she's killed, etc). If you make the tragic narreme optional, it holds no power over you. You have a ready-made escape from the pain in the alternate ending.

Agreed.

[The Razman]

NOD-INFORMER37 wrote...

That is not a fact. That is your opinion. One which I and many here strongly disagree with. You say a happy and sad ending cant co-exist without ruining the emotional experience. But, for many of us, they indeed can and have.

Good for you.

That's not an argument against the logic of my statements though. That's just saying "I don't believe you because I had a different experience". Again, good for you. Your experience is a minority one though.

Mass Effect is an RPG and works differently from all those games you listed. In other games you’re just along for the ride and have little to no control how the story will end up. Not to say those plots are bad or anything, but the whole point of Mass Effect/RPG games is to be able to make choices and shape the story around the players character and decisions. The player works their way up to whatever outcome they are trying to achieve, they create victories/make sacrifices so they can try and obtain the closure they most they desire.

Which is the point I've been making all along. The closure they most desire isn't going to be a tragic one when you have a happy one as an alternative option, and if it is ... then it's not tragic by the very nature that you've chosen it. That's not how tragedy works. You can't want tragedy to happen.

Your argument is purely that Mass Effect is a game (I'm not subscribing to your completely bogus interpretation of what the RPG genre is "meant to be") which is heavily choice based, so you should be able to simply choose whatever ending you want. Sure. I can accept that argument as having merit. That's not what this is about though; this is purely about the effect you have on any tragic ending by doing what you propose; you rob it of all its power. Something which I've yet to see you address.

Even so how exactly does that affect YOUR emotional experience with the story? If you think ME3’s ending was a fitting end to it all, then are you not be able to choose that ending for yourself if there were other options? I don’t see why not.

Read above, please.

[lillitheris]

Can too.

[zerox505]

happy ending- orgasm as part of an erotic message


i'd definitely love to have a happy ending with Miranda.

[jeweledleah]

I still don't understand why tragedy is supposedly the only valid possible fitting end to mass effect franchise. first 2 games were not built as tragedies. they were built as heroic uplifting sci-fi, and tragic moments that happened were there to make the uplifting feel more uplifitng. third game.. has its ups and downs but general seems to lead up to uplifting.

so why is the tragedy the only fitting end? we CAN'T we win? please, could someone explain to me, when did Mass Effect suddenly turn into a Lars von Trier movie?

[AlanC9]

Subject M wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Subject M wrote...

Of course, a player should not be unnecessarily punished for earlier mistakes (such as choosing to save the "wrong VS" for a desired outcome of the ending of the trilogy for example, there should always be some options so that you can make some adjustments and get back on desired course towards your preferred ending), 

When you talk about "your preferred ending" you lose me. Who's the "your" in that sentence? Is it me, or the Shep I'm playing?

Sorry about not being clear. "towards the prefered ending of that player"

Thanks. But now that I understand you I have to disagree with this entire line of thinking. I don't play RPGs by deciding what ending I want to see and deliberately working towards it, unless I've played it six or seven times and I'm just about done with the game altogether. If I'm doing that the game has failed as an RPG, because I'm not making decisions in character.

@jeweledleah: I'm not sure the argument is that ME had to be a tragedy. Just that it's an acceptable artistic decision for Bio to have made.

Modifié par AlanC9, 12 mai 2012 - 06:25 .

[Grimwick]

jeweledleah wrote...

I still don't understand why tragedy is supposedly the only valid possible fitting end to mass effect franchise. first 2 games were not built as tragedies. they were built as heroic uplifting sci-fi, and tragic moments that happened were there to make the uplifting feel more uplifitng. third game.. has its ups and downs but general seems to lead up to uplifting.

so why is the tragedy the only fitting end? we CAN'T we win? please, could someone explain to me, when did Mass Effect suddenly turn into a Lars von Trier movie?

Yup - ME is probably the first major game franchise I've seen in which you can't win.

ME3 is more about hope than desperation, Garrus even changes his mind about the galaxy's chances saying:
'I think we can win this.' 

I just don't know why the theme of survival in the impossible, which was consistant in ME1/ME2, was thrown out of the window for a terribly executed 'artsy' twist. 

[Il Divo]

Grimwick wrote...

jeweledleah wrote...

I still don't understand why tragedy is supposedly the only valid possible fitting end to mass effect franchise. first 2 games were not built as tragedies. they were built as heroic uplifting sci-fi, and tragic moments that happened were there to make the uplifting feel more uplifitng. third game.. has its ups and downs but general seems to lead up to uplifting.

so why is the tragedy the only fitting end? we CAN'T we win? please, could someone explain to me, when did Mass Effect suddenly turn into a Lars von Trier movie?

Yup - ME is probably the first major game franchise I've seen in which you can't win.

ME3 is more about hope than desperation, Garrus even changes his mind about the galaxy's chances saying:
'I think we can win this.' 

I just don't know why the theme of survival in the impossible, which was consistant in ME1/ME2, was thrown out of the window for a terribly executed 'artsy' twist. 

Don't forget Neverwinter Nights 2. Rocks fall on you and everyone (seemingly) dies.

[Iakus]

Il Divo wrote...

The Razman wrote...

Tragedy is not tragedy if you want it to happen, correct? So if the tragedy's only happening because you picked the option over the happy one ... then where's the emotional impact of it? The essense of tragedy is something which happens in the narrative against your desires (we want the star-crossed lovers to end up together, which is why it hurts when they die ... we want Aerith to have a happy ending with the rest of us, which is why it hurts when she's killed, etc). If you make the tragic narreme optional, it holds no power over you. You have a ready-made escape from the pain in the alternate ending.

Agreed.

Puzzling.

Everyone knows how Romeo and Juliet end up (heck the full title of the play is "The Tragedy of Romeo and Juliet")  Yet people keep reading the play, watching it on stage and screen, even if they don't have to.  They want to.

Me I prefer the "Tragedy of Macbeth" as far as Shakespearean plays go.  But that's just me 

And even so, people aren't arguing that no deaths should take place in ME3.  Whatever others say, I doubt many people seriously want the "rainbows and unicorns" ending they're accused of.  Given most seem pretty happy with the vast majority of ME3's story, I'd go so far as to say that's not the case at all.  

The sticking pont is Shepard's survival at the end.  That seems to be the tipping point between "bittersweet" and "pure bitter" for a lot of people.  Even if Shepard lives, a lot of people including several old friends are still dead.  It's still bittersweet.  Yet it still gets portrayed as an uberhappy ending.  This I cannot fathom.

[Iakus]

Il Divo wrote...

Don't forget Neverwinter Nights 2. Rocks fall on you and everyone (seemingly) dies.

"Seemingly" being the operative word.  There's no clear evidence one way or the other as to the final fate of...well, anyone...

At least until Mask of the Betrayer, 

[Sgt Stryker]

Han Shot First wrote...

Random Jerkface wrote...

That being said, a narrative is not facile or childish simply because no one died. Heroic sacrifices are just as clichéd.

I don't disagree.

It all depends on the story.  A RotJ ending would be thematically inconsistent with Mass Effect 3 however.

Maybe not a RotJ ending, but an ending where Shepard + the current Normandy crew all survive would be thematically consistent with the trilogy as a whole.

I still stand by my view that such an ending can still be done, without devolving into "Disney/Hollywood-happy-ending/rainbows-and-unicorns". It's all a question of proper execution.

[Iakus]

jeweledleah wrote...

I still don't understand why tragedy is supposedly the only valid possible fitting end to mass effect franchise. first 2 games were not built as tragedies. they were built as heroic uplifting sci-fi, and tragic moments that happened were there to make the uplifting feel more uplifitng. third game.. has its ups and downs but general seems to lead up to uplifting.

so why is the tragedy the only fitting end? we CAN'T we win? please, could someone explain to me, when did Mass Effect suddenly turn into a Lars von Trier movie?

Agreed

The first two games, even going back to Shepard's preservice history (Akuze, Elysium, Torfan), have been about overcoming seemingly impossible odds.  Over and over again.  Garrus in ME2 even ponts out "The Collectors killed you, and all that did was p*ss you off"

To change that tune, not just inthe final game, but the final minutes of the final game, is an odd chocie to say the least.

[Il Divo]

iakus wrote...

Il Divo wrote...

Don't forget Neverwinter Nights 2. Rocks fall on you and everyone (seemingly) dies.

"Seemingly" being the operative word.  There's no clear evidence one way or the other as to the final fate of...well, anyone...

At least until Mask of the Betrayer, 

Ah, but tell that to all the fans who played through NWN2 before word of an expansion arose. I doubt they were any more satisfied with that conclusion than we are now.

Modifié par Il Divo, 12 mai 2012 - 06:35 .

[Grimwick]

iakus wrote...

And even so, people aren't arguing that no deaths should take place in ME3.  Whatever others say, I doubt many people seriously want the "rainbows and unicorns" ending they're accused of.  Given most seem pretty happy with the vast majority of ME3's story, I'd go so far as to say that's not the case at all.  

The sticking pont is Shepard's survival at the end.  That seems to be the tipping point between "bittersweet" and "pure bitter" for a lot of people.  Even if Shepard lives, a lot of people including several old friends are still dead.  It's still bittersweet.  Yet it still gets portrayed as an uberhappy ending.  This I cannot fathom.

This. It is a clear misrepresentation, almost a straw man if you will, when they begin claiming 'rainbows and unicorns'.

And I agree also that Shepard surviving is still bittersweet. People seem to forget the many characters that can die, the death of billions of people and the last scene before the ending. How is that rainbows and unicorns at all?

Il Divo wrote...
Don't forget Neverwinter Nights 2. Rocks fall on you and everyone (seemingly) dies.

Although I have never played it, the ending sounds frustrating and lacking in closure. Sounds dreadful to me. 

[Il Divo]

iakus wrote...

Puzzling.

Everyone knows how Romeo and Juliet end up (heck the full title of the play is "The Tragedy of Romeo and Juliet")  Yet people keep reading the play, watching it on stage and screen, even if they don't have to.  They want to.

But the appeal is entirely in the inevitability of these characters' actions. The point is primarily that tragedy loses impact if you're choosing it than if it's forced upon you. That's why I make such a big deal about layering these endings so well that it doesn't feel like it's just push a button for happy/sad.  

I just got through replaying Halo: Reach, for the millionth time, which ends with you and your entire squad dying. But you succeed in your objective. That would not have remotely the same impact if I had chosen to kill my squad-mates, rather than having the narrative do it to me.

Likewise, take something like Red Dead Redemption. The ultimate affect of Marston's fate is kinda lost if I chose to have his brains blown out.

Modifié par Il Divo, 12 mai 2012 - 06:34 .

[Il Divo]

Grimwick wrote...

Although I have never played it, the ending sounds frustrating and lacking in closure. Sounds dreadful to me. 

haha, the outcry was terrible from what I heard. Can't say I blame them either. Worse than a tragic ending is a forced tragic ending.

[Sgt Stryker]

Grimwick wrote...

And I agree also that Shepard surviving is still bittersweet. People seem to forget the many characters that can die, the death of billions of people and the last scene before the ending. How is that rainbows and unicorns at all?

For the record, I would like a moratorium on the use of the phrase rainbow and unicorns, please. 

[Subject M]

AlanC9 wrote...

Subject M wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Subject M wrote...

Of course, a player should not be unnecessarily punished for earlier mistakes (such as choosing to save the "wrong VS" for a desired outcome of the ending of the trilogy for example, there should always be some options so that you can make some adjustments and get back on desired course towards your preferred ending), 

When you talk about "your preferred ending" you lose me. Who's the "your" in that sentence? Is it me, or the Shep I'm playing?

Sorry about not being clear. "towards the prefered ending of that player"

Thanks. But now that I understand you I have to disagree with this entire line of thinking. I don't play RPGs by deciding what ending I want to see and deliberately working towards it, unless I've played it six or seven times and I'm just about done with the game altogether. If I'm doing that the game has failed as an RPG, because I'm not making decisions in character.

@jeweledleah: I'm not sure the argument is that ME had to be a tragedy. Just that it's an acceptable artistic decision for Bio to have made.

It seems I was not clear enough after all. "towards the prefered ending of that player" incompases all kinds of motivations from the player, ranging from people who are meta-gaming to those who soley acts and makes decisions in character. Yor charcter has a prefered ending/goals he/she work towards.

[Iakus]

Il Divo wrote...

Ah, but tell that to all the fans who played through NWN2 before word of an expansion arose. I doubt they were any more satisfied with that conclusion than we are now.

<----Played it and enjoyed it pre- MoTB.

Edit:  was actually a bit frustrated by the expansion as it spelled out who lived and who died at the end of NWN2.  Unavoidably.

Modifié par iakus, 12 mai 2012 - 06:42 .

[Subject M]

iakus wrote...

Il Divo wrote...

Don't forget Neverwinter Nights 2. Rocks fall on you and everyone (seemingly) dies.

"Seemingly" being the operative word.  There's no clear evidence one way or the other as to the final fate of...well, anyone...

At least until Mask of the Betrayer, 

Which was pretty damn awsome and had a wide range of endings. My first playthrough happened to be as "good" as an ending to that game can get and it was truly awsome.