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[Sgt Stryker]

Read my post more carefully. Then go look up some quotes by Casey Hudson. I'm not denying that all Mass Effect games follow the first formula. However, time and time again they advertised that ME3 would adhere to the second formula. This turned out to be completely false. Why do you think people are so angry?

Modifié par Sgt Stryker, 13 mai 2012 - 08:14 .

[Dan Dark]

slyguy200 wrote...

My god this thread is still going.
I hope you all realize that the OP is trolling you all.

Seconded. I was really hoping this would have died by now... The OP has been provided multiple sound arguments against his, and yet blindly refuses to even consider them. And frankly, it's pretty obvious to me what's going on - heck, I figured this out two days ago. The OP is one of those stubborn people that, once they have become convinced of something, nothing short of an act of god of will change their mind... and even then they might only conceed that the other side may have a point; they still won't admit they were wrong.

The OP is just refusing to give up, because he hopes everyone else will first. Because then, if he gets the last word, he'd be able to point to that and try to say "See? No one was able to challenge my claims. I win!"

That said, I'm not bothering being part of this conversation any more, because it's not really a conversation at all - I've met walls that were more open-minded than some of the posters here. Still, though, it amuses me to see how deep a hole the OP's digging himself into... so I might stick around, just to watch this thread burn.

[The Razman]

Sgt Stryker wrote...

Read my post more carefully. Then go look up some quotes by Casey Hudson. I'm not denying that all Mass Effect games follow the first formula. However, time and time again they advertised that ME3 would adhere to the second formula. This turned out to be completely false. Why do you think people are so angry?

... you're claiming that people believed that Mass Effect 3 was going to be drastically different in the way it told its story to the first two games?

[Sgt Stryker]

The Razman wrote...

Sgt Stryker wrote...

Read my post more carefully. Then go look up some quotes by Casey Hudson. I'm not denying that all Mass Effect games follow the first formula. However, time and time again they advertised that ME3 would adhere to the second formula. This turned out to be completely false. Why do you think people are so angry?

... you're claiming that people believed that Mass Effect 3 was going to be drastically different in the way it told its story to the first two games?

Yes, because the developers themselves promised exactly that, and back in those days, people actually trusted them. Not anymore, and for good reason. Did you do as I asked and look up Casey Hudson's pre-release quotes?

Modifié par Sgt Stryker, 13 mai 2012 - 08:20 .

[Dan Dark]

The Razman wrote...

Sgt Stryker wrote...

Read my post more carefully. Then go look up some quotes by Casey Hudson. I'm not denying that all Mass Effect games follow the first formula. However, time and time again they advertised that ME3 would adhere to the second formula. This turned out to be completely false. Why do you think people are so angry?

... you're claiming that people believed that Mass Effect 3 was going to be drastically different in the way it told its story to the first two games?

...actually, I think he was pointing out how they explicitly stated in pre-release interviews and such that there would be multiple, dramatically different endings.

[The Razman]

Dan Dark wrote...

slyguy200 wrote...

My god this thread is still going.
I hope you all realize that the OP is trolling you all.

Seconded. I was really hoping this would have died by now... The OP has been provided multiple sound arguments against his, and yet blindly refuses to even consider them. And frankly, it's pretty obvious to me what's going on - heck, I figured this out two days ago. The OP is one of those stubborn people that, once they have become convinced of something, nothing short of an act of god of will change their mind... and even then they might only conceed that the other side may have a point; they still won't admit they were wrong.

The OP is just refusing to give up, because he hopes everyone else will first. Because then, if he gets the last word, he'd be able to point to that and try to say "See? No one was able to challenge my claims. I win!"

That said, I'm not bothering being part of this conversation any more, because it's not really a conversation at all - I've met walls that were more open-minded than some of the posters here. Still, though, it amuses me to see how deep a hole the OP's digging himself into... so I might stick around, just to watch this thread burn.

When were you a part of this conversation to begin with?

If I hadn't seen your type before, those who make a single post or two in a thread containing a debate which is full of more disparaging remarks about the other side than anything of substance, then proceeds to not do anything except sit on the sidelines and make long posts about how the person must be a troll because of argumentum ad populum.

It just baffles me why you would make your troll post now, at a time when Subject M is saying stuff which changes my view in almost every post he makes, iamthedave and me were having a good conversation which was meeting in the middle before it broke down to childishness, and at the point where Grimwick is involved (who is someone I actually respect and has changed my mind on many issues in the past). You couldn't have picked a time to say "HAH! HE'S STUBBORN AND WILL NEVER CHANGE HIS MIND" which made you look more of a troll, even if you weren't starting your post off with agreeing with the guy who is self-admittedly trolling me (in his words).

Begone. Adults are talking.

[The Razman]

Sgt Stryker wrote...

The Razman wrote...

Sgt Stryker wrote...

Read my post more carefully. Then go look up some quotes by Casey Hudson. I'm not denying that all Mass Effect games follow the first formula. However, time and time again they advertised that ME3 would adhere to the second formula. This turned out to be completely false. Why do you think people are so angry?

... you're claiming that people believed that Mass Effect 3 was going to be drastically different in the way it told its story to the first two games?

Yes, because the developers themselves promised exactly that, and back in those days, people actually trusted them. Not anymore, and for good reason. Did you do as I asked and look up Casey Hudson's pre-release quotes?

So ... everybody read a pre-release quote from some interview about multiple endings (which ALL Mass Effect games have included anyway), assumed that ME3 was going to include an entirely different level of non-linearity to the first two games as a result, and that's caused the anger at the endings ...?

I think, as quite some claims about things all fans are angry about because "it was promised in pre-release quotes" ... this might be revisionist history at work, don't you?

[iamthedave3]

The Razman wrote...

which was meeting in the middle before it broke down to childishness,

I do find it amusing that you've decided after one part of one post replying to one extended comment you made that our entire discussion has 'devolved into childishness'.

I've already moved on from that particular thing. If you want to keep bringing it up, that's your prerogative.

Modifié par iamthedave3, 13 mai 2012 - 08:30 .

[Sgt Stryker]

The Razman wrote...

Sgt Stryker wrote...

The Razman wrote...

Sgt Stryker wrote...

Read my post more carefully. Then go look up some quotes by Casey Hudson. I'm not denying that all Mass Effect games follow the first formula. However, time and time again they advertised that ME3 would adhere to the second formula. This turned out to be completely false. Why do you think people are so angry?

... you're claiming that people believed that Mass Effect 3 was going to be drastically different in the way it told its story to the first two games?

Yes, because the developers themselves promised exactly that, and back in those days, people actually trusted them. Not anymore, and for good reason. Did you do as I asked and look up Casey Hudson's pre-release quotes?

So ... everybody read a pre-release quote from some interview about multiple endings (which ALL Mass Effect games have included anyway), assumed that ME3 was going to include an entirely different level of non-linearity to the first two games as a result, and that's caused the anger at the endings ...?

I think, as quite some claims about things all fans are angry about because "it was promised in pre-release quotes" ... this might be revisionist history at work, don't you?

I direct you to this thread. Make your own conclusions from this. The quotes in these links aren't open to interpretation. They objectively describe a product that is inconsistent with the product we all bought.

Modifié par Sgt Stryker, 13 mai 2012 - 08:34 .

[The Razman]

iamthedave3 wrote...

I do find it amusing that you've decided after one part of one post replying to one extended comment you made that our entire discussion has 'devolved into childishness'.

Well sorry, but what else would you call the "Oh dear. Oooooh dear" business? I kind of lost interest after that when I realised that was the level we were down to.

Modifié par The Razman, 13 mai 2012 - 08:32 .

[The Razman]

Sgt Stryker wrote...

The Razman wrote...

Sgt Stryker wrote...

The Razman wrote...

Sgt Stryker wrote...

Read my post more carefully. Then go look up some quotes by Casey Hudson. I'm not denying that all Mass Effect games follow the first formula. However, time and time again they advertised that ME3 would adhere to the second formula. This turned out to be completely false. Why do you think people are so angry?

... you're claiming that people believed that Mass Effect 3 was going to be drastically different in the way it told its story to the first two games?

Yes, because the developers themselves promised exactly that, and back in those days, people actually trusted them. Not anymore, and for good reason. Did you do as I asked and look up Casey Hudson's pre-release quotes?

So ... everybody read a pre-release quote from some interview about multiple endings (which ALL Mass Effect games have included anyway), assumed that ME3 was going to include an entirely different level of non-linearity to the first two games as a result, and that's caused the anger at the endings ...?

I think, as quite some claims about things all fans are angry about because "it was promised in pre-release quotes" ... this might be revisionist history at work, don't you?

I direct you to this thread. Make your own conclusions from this.

You know, you would have much more of a point, considering we're talking about revisionist history, if you directed me to threads discussing the quotes before release?

[iamthedave3]

@ Stryker: The presence of the thread doesn't in itself mean anything. I mean there's plenty of RAGE AMMUNITION for people angry, but how many people knew of those quotes going into the game?

I didn't. But my annoyance and dislike of the endings isn't based on what was promised. That IS a valid reason to be angry, but for me personally it's secondary. I dislike it for failings I perceive in the narrative, primarily at the ending.

There are things that bug me elsewhere, mind. But the ending is so much bigger than all of them it seems downright cruel to pick at the smaller wounds as well.

I'd say even if the ending had been perfect I would still have thought of ME 3 as second best after ME 2, mostly because of enormous issues I have with the implementation of EMS and the side quest system (ignoring the fact that the pay off of the side quests is most of the characters involved getting arbitrarily murdered).

[iamthedave3]

The Razman wrote...

iamthedave3 wrote...

I do find it amusing that you've decided after one part of one post replying to one extended comment you made that our entire discussion has 'devolved into childishness'.

Well sorry, but what else would you call the "Oh dear. Oooooh dear" business? I kind of lost interest after that when I realised that was the level we were down to.

Then raise the level again. It's not hard if the participants are willing. I could directly address what you're asking, but that will cause it to derail into mud-slinging, which is pointless. We both goofed.

Modifié par iamthedave3, 13 mai 2012 - 08:39 .

[Sgt Stryker]

The Razman, you claim that the narrative is the same no matter what choices the player makes. You even go so far as to say that these choices are little more than gameplay mechanics. As I see it, there are only two possibilities. You're either right, or you're wrong. If you're right, then the developers lied to us prior to release. If you're wrong, then you're simply wrong.

As for the thread I linked to, it doesn't matter when the thread itself was written. The links lead directly to quotes made by the developers before the game was released. Quotes that explicitly describe a product we did not get.

Modifié par Sgt Stryker, 13 mai 2012 - 08:40 .

[The Razman]

Sgt Stryker wrote...

The Razman, you claim that the narrative is the same no matter what choices the player makes. You even go so far as to say that these choices are little more than gameplay mechanics. As I see it, there are only two possibilities. You're either right, or you're wrong. If you're right, then the developers lied to us prior to release. If you're wrong, then you're simply wrong.

As for the thread I linked to, it doesn't matter when the thread itself was written. The links lead directly to quotes made by the developers before the game was released. Quotes that explicitly describe a product we did not get.

Yes but you said the reason that people are angry about the narrative being parallel and not branching is because we were promised it beforehand. Which is impossible if people didn't read the quotes before release.

And if so many people read the quotes and formed expectations around them ... surely you should be able to direct us to some threads of that happening, instead of just threads of people raging about it post-release?

[GroverA125]

I don't understand your point. ME2 has a happy ending, where everyone makes it home, and yet people do not strive for it completely. In fact, people try to kill off people they don't like.

ME3 would be the same, people picking whom they hate and removing them. People don't care if one ending is happy, they just like doing things and making things happen, usually differently to how it was previously.

[Sgt Stryker]

The Razman wrote...

Sgt Stryker wrote...

The Razman, you claim that the narrative is the same no matter what choices the player makes. You even go so far as to say that these choices are little more than gameplay mechanics. As I see it, there are only two possibilities. You're either right, or you're wrong. If you're right, then the developers lied to us prior to release. If you're wrong, then you're simply wrong.

As for the thread I linked to, it doesn't matter when the thread itself was written. The links lead directly to quotes made by the developers before the game was released. Quotes that explicitly describe a product we did not get.

Yes but you said the reason that people are angry about the narrative being parallel and not branching is because we were promised it beforehand. Which is impossible if people didn't read the quotes before release.

And if so many people read the quotes and formed expectations around them ... surely you should be able to direct us to some threads of that happening, instead of just threads of people raging about it post-release?

I'm certain that many of the people who frequent this forum would gleefully gobble up as much pre-release info about ME3 as they could. I sure did, that is until the story leak debacle. And no, I'm not about to go digging up months-old threads from this forum just to prove a point. I have better ways to spend my time.

[The Razman]

Sgt Stryker wrote...

The Razman wrote...

Sgt Stryker wrote...

The Razman, you claim that the narrative is the same no matter what choices the player makes. You even go so far as to say that these choices are little more than gameplay mechanics. As I see it, there are only two possibilities. You're either right, or you're wrong. If you're right, then the developers lied to us prior to release. If you're wrong, then you're simply wrong.

As for the thread I linked to, it doesn't matter when the thread itself was written. The links lead directly to quotes made by the developers before the game was released. Quotes that explicitly describe a product we did not get.

Yes but you said the reason that people are angry about the narrative being parallel and not branching is because we were promised it beforehand. Which is impossible if people didn't read the quotes before release.

And if so many people read the quotes and formed expectations around them ... surely you should be able to direct us to some threads of that happening, instead of just threads of people raging about it post-release?

I'm certain that many of the people who frequent this forum would gleefully gobble up as much pre-release info about ME3 as they could. I sure did, that is until the story leak debacle. And no, I'm not about to go digging up months-old threads from this forum just to prove a point. I have better ways to spend my time.

You won't mind if I postulate that the reason you're not is because what I'm asking you to do most likely isn't possible? And that that kind of supports what I said about revisionist history?

Just a point that needs to be made. People expected ME3 to be a Mass Effect game, and all Mass Effect games have followed a parallel narrative structure. Which is merely pseudo-non-linearity. And I'm sure that had some point related to the topic of this thread at some point, but we're so far away from that now that it probably doesn't even matter.

Modifié par The Razman, 13 mai 2012 - 09:01 .

[The Razman]

GroverA125 wrote...

I don't understand your point. ME2 has a happy ending, where everyone makes it home, and yet people do not strive for it completely. In fact, people try to kill off people they don't like.

Most people don't do that on their first playthrough though. Which is the most important one when it comes to the narrative carrying out the effect its author intends. You're not aiming to kill people, and if you have to make a choice between someone dying tragically and someone living, then the tragedy has no emotional power over you. You can't want tragedy to happen.

[The Razman]

slyguy200 wrote...

The Razman wrote...

...
You won't mind if I postulate that the reason you're not is because what I'm asking you to do most likely isn't possible? And that that kind of supports what I said about revisionist history?

...

Go and search "ME3 wishlist" and i am sure you will find plenty of examples.

Go ahead. I'd be happy to see if you find anything. I'm not against finding anything, I just don't think you will.

[The Razman]

slyguy200 wrote...

The Razman wrote...

slyguy200 wrote...

The Razman wrote...

...
You won't mind if I postulate that the reason you're not is because what I'm asking you to do most likely isn't possible? And that that kind of supports what I said about revisionist history?

...

Go and search "ME3 wishlist" and i am sure you will find plenty of examples.

Go ahead. I'd be happy to see if you find anything. I'm not against finding anything, I just don't think you will.

I already did, which is why i recommended that you do.

When I said "go ahead", that meant "go ahead and link to them like Sgt Stryker was doing".