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[The Razman]

slyguy200 wrote...

The Razman wrote...

slyguy200 wrote...

The Razman wrote...

slyguy200 wrote...

The Razman wrote...

...
You won't mind if I postulate that the reason you're not is because what I'm asking you to do most likely isn't possible? And that that kind of supports what I said about revisionist history?

...

Go and search "ME3 wishlist" and i am sure you will find plenty of examples.

Go ahead. I'd be happy to see if you find anything. I'm not against finding anything, I just don't think you will.

I already did, which is why i recommended that you do.

When I said "go ahead", that meant "go ahead and link to them like Sgt Stryker was doing".

Why would i link 1, when i could give search instructions that could lead to several?
Also, you could find more by simply searching "ME3 expectations"

1. Because it's not my job to go searching for evidence to prove the assertions of people I don't agree with.

And 2. Because you could've done it several times over by now in the time it's taken you to argue about it.

I'm just saying ... go ahead, because it's actually a thought I've had in my head for quite a while, that people who complain about pre-release quotes are mainly just practicing revisionist history.

[Subject M]

The Razman wrote...

Subject M wrote...

>The Razman

I think you exaggerate when it comes to the narrative being linear and that choices are pure gameplay.
Of course there is much that is linear, but I do consider anything that produce a different outcome in terms of the fate of characters, entire races or the general political situation as an example of diverging storylines and thus a non-linear narrative.

That's a matter of opinion. Do you consider parallel narratives to be non-linear narratives? Because I don't think we should ever be aiming for those as a paragon of "non-linear storytelling". They're pseudo-non-linear, giving the illusion of consequences while feeding us a standard linear story. Here, this is something I used in my undergraduate dissertation to explain this point. Mass Effect is this:



When we want this:



The former gives only illusion. The latter is an actual non-linear narrative.

If we look at the "main storyline" what we had in the trilogy is the first model. But there are parts of the narrative that does indeed branches off and these are of course part of the narrative too.  The fate of the krogan and Geth are part of the narrative and they are indeed following model no 2.

Part of the reason why people are upset is because we were under the impression that ME3 would have vastly different endings (would end as a branching narrative - hey its the ENDING). In some ways it was, (synthesis, destroy and control) its just it was not done in a nonsatisfying way without any notiable agency when too much stayed the same regardless of what we did because it ended in accordance with the catalyst going like: Sorry Frodo, but:
http://t1.gstatic.co...A0Ax9QIgsza4lDp

Modifié par Subject M, 13 mai 2012 - 09:43 .

[Travie]

The ONLY reason we got the ending we did is that the writers threw out Drew's awesome vision and changed it so they could have more games in the series.

Just look at EA's investor press releases, they still think of Mass Effect of one of their major cash cows.

I wouldn't even care about this if they had actually taken the time to do a good job.

They did not.

[Sgt Stryker]

The Razman wrote...

Just a point that needs to be made. People expected ME3 to be a Mass Effect game, and all Mass Effect games have followed a parallel narrative structure. Which is merely pseudo-non-linearity. And I'm sure that had some point related to the topic of this thread at some point, but we're so far away from that now that it probably doesn't even matter.

Are you suggesting that peoples' expectations aren't influenced to a degree by what the developers say about their own game? In any case, it doesn't matter what the fans' pre-release expectations were; that's not relevant at all to my point. What is relevant is the fact that Casey Hudson and the rest of Bioware incorrectly advertised their game as offering many different endings that would appeal to different people, and that the player crafts a unique story, when in reality this was simply untrue. If they were simply more honest about what the game would actually offer, I'm sure people would be less angry than they are now.

[iamthedave3]

Eh... I'm not sure Drew's dark energy plan is quite 'awesome'. Better than what we got? Maybe, but that one could have been pretty dang lame as well.

[Almighty_Hoogs]

Why can't i have a happy ending?

[Subject M]

iamthedave3 wrote...

Eh... I'm not sure Drew's dark energy plan is quite 'awesome'. Better than what we got? Maybe, but that one could have been pretty dang lame as well.

True, but at least the Dark energy plot was foreshadowed and thus integrated into the narrative structure properly.
But the real question is: How many specimens do the reapers need of a particular race? Obviously not all.

[Subject M]

Almighty_Hoogs wrote...

Why can't i have a happy ending?

Appearntly because the developers wants everyone to have a tragic ending...

[iamthedave3]

Subject M wrote...

iamthedave3 wrote...

Eh... I'm not sure Drew's dark energy plan is quite 'awesome'. Better than what we got? Maybe, but that one could have been pretty dang lame as well.

True, but at least the Dark energy plot was foreshadowed and thus integrated into the narrative structure properly.
But the real question is: How many specimens do the reapers need of a particular race? Obviously not all.

I think with the reaper creation it's a case of 'as many as it takes'. The process has never been clearly elucidated, but it's not flawless (they mention that many races can't be harvested).

[N172]

Sacrificing someone in order to have Shepard alive and with his/her LI is bittersweet.
The actual ending is bitter but it seriously lacks in the sweet part!

Modifié par N172, 13 mai 2012 - 11:42 .

[Subject M]

iamthedave3 wrote...

Subject M wrote...

iamthedave3 wrote...

Eh... I'm not sure Drew's dark energy plan is quite 'awesome'. Better than what we got? Maybe, but that one could have been pretty dang lame as well.

True, but at least the Dark energy plot was foreshadowed and thus integrated into the narrative structure properly.
But the real question is: How many specimens do the reapers need of a particular race? Obviously not all.

I think with the reaper creation it's a case of 'as many as it takes'. The process has never been clearly elucidated, but it's not flawless (they mention that many races can't be harvested).

Its really strange when you think of it, but its of course just a plot-device. (If the Reapers are so advanced and have time, why not just sample the population for the relevant genotypes, do some cloning, hybridization and splicing - done!)

Really they should have played the "we impose order on the chaos of organic evolution" - card, with the catalyst stating that organics are too dangerous to just leave alone and unchecked. That could have given rise to interesting solutions as you bargain with or plot against the catalyst  (the "Reaper consensus" or harbinger in disguise).

[Subject M]

N172 wrote...

Sacrificing someone in order to have Shepard alive and with his/her LI is bittersweet.
The actual ending is bitter but it seriously lacks in the sweet part!

Anderson is a prime candidate. It must not just be a cheap replica of "Alistair or your warden"

[The Razman]

Sgt Stryker wrote...

Are you suggesting that peoples' expectations aren't influenced to a degree by what the developers say about their own game? In any case, it doesn't matter what the fans' pre-release expectations were; that's not relevant at all to my point.

What? This was your point:

Sgt Stryker wrote...

I'm not denying that all Mass Effect games follow the first formula. However, time and time again they advertised that ME3 would adhere to the second formula. This turned out to be completely false. Why do you think people are so angry?

If people are angry because they were expecting the second formula (branching narrative as opposed to the parallel which the game has always been), then show me. You could be bothered to dig up threads from post-release of people complaining about quotes ... so there's no reason you can't dig up threads from pre-release. Unless they don't exist, which proves my point.

Sorry mate, but this is why I don't respect you the way I do some of the other people in this thread. I've given you the door to prove me wrong by presenting something very simple which should, if you're right, be easy to find ... and instead of either taking that opportunity or backing down and admitting you were wrong, you're doing this. Just show me the threads that you and slyguy claim are out there, and you've proved me wrong. Otherwise, I'm right. Simple as that.

[The Razman]

Subject M wrote...

If we look at the "main storyline" what we had in the trilogy is the first model. But there are parts of the narrative that does indeed branches off and these are of course part of the narrative too.  The fate of the krogan and Geth are part of the narrative and they are indeed following model no 2.

Part of the reason why people are upset is because we were under the impression that ME3 would have vastly different endings (would end as a branching narrative - hey its the ENDING). In some ways it was, (synthesis, destroy and control) its just it was not done in a nonsatisfying way without any notiable agency when too much stayed the same regardless of what we did because it ended in accordance with the catalyst going like: Sorry Frodo, but:
[snip]

You're right when you say that the Geth and the Krogan stories have branching narratives ... but they're not part of the main story of the game. Absolutely nothing you do in those narrative side-branches will significantly effect anything to do with the main quest, no? It's going to carry on in a relentlessly linear path progressed by your completion of linear "main" missions. That at best makes Mass Effect a linear game with a bunch of non-linear sidequests.

And that's fine if you like that kind of thing, I'm not claiming that kind of game is "wrong" or anything. But it doesn't allow for people to complain about having the impression that ME3 would have vastly different narratives based on what you do. Mass Effect has never had a branching narrative; it's not that type of game.

Modifié par The Razman, 14 mai 2012 - 07:44 .

[Sgt Stryker]

The Razman wrote...

Sgt Stryker wrote...

Are you suggesting that peoples' expectations aren't influenced to a degree by what the developers say about their own game? In any case, it doesn't matter what the fans' pre-release expectations were; that's not relevant at all to my point.

What? This was your point:

Sgt Stryker wrote...

I'm not denying that all Mass Effect games follow the first formula. However, time and time again they advertised that ME3 would adhere to the second formula. This turned out to be completely false. Why do you think people are so angry?

If people are angry because they were expecting the second formula (branching narrative as opposed to the parallel which the game has always been), then show me. You could be bothered to dig up threads from post-release of people complaining about quotes ... so there's no reason you can't dig up threads from pre-release. Unless they don't exist, which proves my point.

Nice try at deflection, but my argument actually had nothing to do with the audience's perception of the ME3 previews, and everything to do with the actual previews themselves. Let me make this perfectly obvious, using your own images. By saying that there would be multiple different endings and that the player crafts their own story, Casey Hudson and company said that ME3 would look like this. However, we ended up with a game that looked more like this. Doesn't it seem at least a little dishonest for Bioware to pull a stunt like this?

Sorry mate, but this is why I don't respect you the way I do some of the other people in this thread. 

Well then, it's a damn good thing I wasn't looking for your respect.

[The Razman]

Sgt Stryker wrote...

The Razman wrote...

Sgt Stryker wrote...

Are you suggesting that peoples' expectations aren't influenced to a degree by what the developers say about their own game? In any case, it doesn't matter what the fans' pre-release expectations were; that's not relevant at all to my point.

What? This was your point:

Sgt Stryker wrote...

I'm not denying that all Mass Effect games follow the first formula. However, time and time again they advertised that ME3 would adhere to the second formula. This turned out to be completely false. Why do you think people are so angry?

If people are angry because they were expecting the second formula (branching narrative as opposed to the parallel which the game has always been), then show me. You could be bothered to dig up threads from post-release of people complaining about quotes ... so there's no reason you can't dig up threads from pre-release. Unless they don't exist, which proves my point.

Nice try at deflection, but my argument actually had nothing to do with the audience's perception of the ME3 previews, and everything to do with the actual previews themselves. Let me make this perfectly obvious, using your own images. By saying that there would be multiple different endings and that the player crafts their own story, Casey Hudson and company said that ME3 would look like this. However, we ended up with a game that looked more like this. Doesn't it seem at least a little dishonest for Bioware to pull a stunt like this?

Which is fine if you're trying to make some kind of argument in favour of Bioware lying or something like that.

You inserted it into an argument about people's emotional reaction to the narrative though. Which is a point which makes zero sense unless people were basing their expectations on which of those images were going to be representative of ME3 on Bioware's pre-release quotes. Which, as I've just proven ... they weren't.

Why can't you just give me the evidence you say exists ... or admit that you're wrong? Not exactly an unreasonable request for you to back up what you're saying, is it?

Sorry mate, but this is why I don't respect you the way I do some of the other people in this thread. 

Well then, it's a damn good thing I wasn't looking for your respect.

I'd get used to saying that if I were you, if this is your usual attitude.

[Il Divo]

iakus wrote...

And did either of these games give you the impression that your chocies matter?  That you had any degree of control over the story?

Not at all, but I wasn't suggesting that either game did. I'm just pointing out that if your interest is in "good" tragedy", it is much, much more difficult to implement with that element of choice present. You used EMS as your example, but that fully demonstrates the problem; you already understood (conceptually) that a higher EMS would result in a better ending, which still reduces it to you choosing a happy ending.

Also How Halo Reach should have ended 

Absolutely hilarious. This made my day.

Modifié par Il Divo, 14 mai 2012 - 12:15 .

[MichaelSD]

"Happy" is a relative word. I can imagine a not happy ending with everyone surviving. The problem is that ME3 is so different and inconsistent in tone and atmosphere, when compared to it's predecessors, that it is difficult to say what would be happy and what not.

[iamthedave3]

Subject M wrote...

iamthedave3 wrote...

Subject M wrote...

iamthedave3 wrote...

Eh... I'm not sure Drew's dark energy plan is quite 'awesome'. Better than what we got? Maybe, but that one could have been pretty dang lame as well.

True, but at least the Dark energy plot was foreshadowed and thus integrated into the narrative structure properly.
But the real question is: How many specimens do the reapers need of a particular race? Obviously not all.

I think with the reaper creation it's a case of 'as many as it takes'. The process has never been clearly elucidated, but it's not flawless (they mention that many races can't be harvested).

Its really strange when you think of it, but its of course just a plot-device. (If the Reapers are so advanced and have time, why not just sample the population for the relevant genotypes, do some cloning, hybridization and splicing - done!)

Really they should have played the "we impose order on the chaos of organic evolution" - card, with the catalyst stating that organics are too dangerous to just leave alone and unchecked. That could have given rise to interesting solutions as you bargain with or plot against the catalyst  (the "Reaper consensus" or harbinger in disguise).

I personally don't feel that there was any way to pull this off effectively, based on prior established qualities of the reapers. The writers reiterated over and over that the reapers are unknowable, impossible to comprehend, and then shackled them down with an extremely basic motivation for what they do. The reapers - it turns out - are trying to save the universe through extreme methods.

By giving us that motivation they stripped away all of that cthuloid grandeur and reduced them significantly. The reapers are understandable. It's just we don't have all the information they do. It was never going to work with the way they were sold in ME 1 (re-listen to Sovereign's speech, just for kicks really) and in ME 3 (by Legion primarily). We shouldn't be able to have debates about whether or not their motivation 'makes sense'. We shouldn't be able to comprehend it at all. I feel that a lot of the backlash against star child is related to that exact issue. People liked what the reapers were, and I don't think many like what they now are.

Though if you absolutely had to explain their justification, I think you've got it right. This line we're thrown about how they're really doing it for our own good was a terrible decision. The reapers shouldn't care about us in the slightest.

Side note: the dark energy plot would have been a much better way to tackle that. I am 99% certain that I would still have had reservations, but at least then the threat would be something concrete, demonstrable, established in a prior game (as you pointed out) and it would have left options for our heroes to find evidence of another way to combat it. Reapers as saviours of the galaxy might always have made me queasy, but if it's a bonafide, established risk to the universe than I can at least run with it.

That would indeed have opened room for negotiation and could have - potentially - made for an awesome twist end.

People have been saying they would like the trial to be the prologue. What if the ending was the star child (I hate him to but I'm assuming that Bioware would always have had him in) putting the galaxy on trial, and Shepherd having to demonstrate that this cycle's life forms have found a way to combat dark energy?

That might have turned out interesting. I can certainly imagine how Bioware could pull it off. They've done good 'trial' scenes in previous games, after all. Maybe the 'best' ending is Shepherd negotiates x number of years for them all to find a solution, or the reapers come back. To keep the tone dark and stuff. Eh. Just a thought.

Really that wouldn't have worked either because people wanted action adventure where the bad guys die in the end, and had been trained to expect as much from the past two games. And promised as much, for that matter, in the trailers at least (and I'm certain everyone saw the trailers at the least).

Modifié par iamthedave3, 14 mai 2012 - 09:55 .

[OlympusMons423]

I like the trial idea...a lot.

Took me a long time but finally got my second Shepard through this thing. She took the breath/happy ending provided. Although I took the ending less hard this time around, I can't say I am happy. I got Big Ben and only 3 stepped off the Normandy instead of 4 like my first time

Sure this has been brought up a 100 times already, but I find it odd were in the story you are thrown back to, after the grandfather offers to tell more story. It is like this is one version of the legend now here is the other version. Using the story-teller format we could still get a happier ending. If it was planned all along...Well now I sound like a wishful thinker.

Yes, I want a happy ending, especially for my male Shepard and his love interest. I alway found more thought provoking moment could have been had with a Phoenix rising from the ashes type ending. We get those with reasons to be happy, even though so much was lost. Is it selfish? Do they deal with it well? Do all those things hold together now when its about sharing what little is left? Do too many expect too much from Shepard to put this all back together. A happy ending would be full of problems....much healthier ones to be debating over.

[Krunjar]

Sorry but you CAN have a happy ending not saying anyone will do it. But yeah you can't just have a button saying "happy ending" you gotta make people work for it. But if they do that then it's fine if you want bittersweet you just don't go to the extra trouble. If you lack the willpower to go bittersweet just because a happy ending "exists" then you just lack willpower.

[The Razman]

Krunjar wrote...

Sorry but you CAN have a happy ending not saying anyone will do it. But yeah you can't just have a button saying "happy ending" you gotta make people work for it. But if they do that then it's fine if you want bittersweet you just don't go to the extra trouble. If you lack the willpower to go bittersweet just because a happy ending "exists" then you just lack willpower.

What you're effectively saying is that people have to work for it to get an unhappy ending, in that scenario. Which assumes that people want an unhappy ending. If you want an unhappy ending and work towards it ... then it's not going to be unhappy for you (just like if you want to kill off characters you don't like and you work towards it, it's not going to hurt you).

It's been said many times in this thread, but its length is probably making it so people aren't bothering to get to the important bits anymore, so I'll just say it again ... you can't want tragedy to happen, the whole point of tragedy is that it's something we don't want to happen. Otherwise it has no emotional hold on you.