649 réponses à ce sujet

[Il Divo]

Krunjar wrote...

Sorry but you CAN have a happy ending not saying anyone will do it. But yeah you can't just have a button saying "happy ending" you gotta make people work for it. But if they do that then it's fine if you want bittersweet you just don't go to the extra trouble. If you lack the willpower to go bittersweet just because a happy ending "exists" then you just lack willpower.

It's not quite the same thing. Take the decision of whether or not to kill Mordin, to prevent him from curing the genophage. That's a decision that genuinely took thought, having to weigh the different moral consequences of my actions (is this right?) as well as personal considerations (Who would want to kill Mordin?). Those are ultimately the decisions which have the greatest effect for me, even on subsequent playthroughs.

Decisions like the Suicide Mission's demonstrate at the most basic level the flaws of forcing tragedy, or making its implementation too obvious, especially in the case of something like the Biotic Barrier, where the choice of which candidate makes the best biotic is painfully obvious. There, the decision to kill/save a character is based on player/character incompetence. Compare that to killing Wrex on Virmire (for example), which is not competence-based, but more character-oriented.

Some might say "Well, just implement it better", but that's not always so easily done, especially if you don't have faith in Bioware's ability to do it well.

Modifié par Il Divo, 14 mai 2012 - 12:23 .

[MichaelSD]

slyguy200 wrote...

From what i see about this so far, people are against a happy ending because it is something about people being emo, and wanting to actually feel something.
I played through ME2 perfectly every time and got my squad out perfectly, this is what i wanted. The game rewarded me for playing through it without messing anything up.
That, however, is not how everyone sees it.
Some people wanted to play through perfectly and have some of the squad die dramatically on the mission, even after doing it all perfectly. So, with the game rewarding them with their squads survival, it actually angered them that they all survived, and they never got an "EMOtional pay-off" from all there hard work.
Ridiculous. right?
And now they want ME3's ending to be all dark and emo for them. Even though most people are angered by the lack of survival chances and variability, the emo's want it to stay dark so that cutting themselves isn't required for them to feel something.

This is so true. Thank you slyguy200.

[Iakus]

Il Divo wrote...

iakus wrote...

And did either of these games give you the impression that your chocies matter?  That you had any degree of control over the story?

Not at all, but I wasn't suggesting that either game did. I'm just pointing out that if your interest is in "good" tragedy", it is much, much more difficult to implement with that element of choice present. You used EMS as your example, but that fully demonstrates the problem; you already understood (conceptually) that a higher EMS would result in a better ending, which still reduces it to you choosing a happy ending.

It may be difficult, but Bioware had repeatedly told us that our decisions mattered, that going in prepared will give us "better" endings (they also told us there'd be multiple ways to stop the Reapers based on our decisions, but...yeah...)

EMS is only one aspect.  It only makes sense that going in prepared makes things go more smoothly.  It applies everywhere.  But there's also decision-making to take into account.

We were told before release that there would be several paths to defeating the Reapers (I suppose that's literally true, though not how I imagined it ) based on our choices.  Who's to say some of those paths couldn't be an Ultimate Sacrifice way?

[BD Manchild]

Once again it seems like someone's missed the point of why people are so hard on the ending. Nobody is upset at the tone of the ending (at least I'm not); people are upset because it comes out of nowhere, doesn't make any sense, doesn't provide any real closure and is all over in just a couple of minutes.

[karlchen]

Still finised God of War III. It's hard not to spoil. But I try.
Let me say, that GoW III is a very good example how to end a Game(Series) properly.
I'm a fan of happy ends in general. But I can clearly say, that the end of GoW III is very satisfiying without beeing a typical happy end. Some Endings in this way would have been wonderful for ME3

[napushenko]

slyguy200 wrote...

From what i see about this so far, people are against a happy ending because it is something about people being emo, and wanting to actually feel something.
I played through ME2 perfectly every time and got my squad out perfectly, this is what i wanted. The game rewarded me for playing through it without messing anything up.
That, however, is not how everyone sees it.
Some people wanted to play through perfectly and have some of the squad die dramatically on the mission, even after doing it all perfectly. So, with the game rewarding them with their squads survival, it actually angered them that they all survived, and they never got an "EMOtional pay-off" from all there hard work.
Ridiculous. right?
And now they want ME3's ending to be all dark and emo for them. Even though most people are angered by the lack of survival chances and variability, the emo's want it to stay dark so that cutting themselves isn't required for them to feel something.

It is ridiculous. Its the end of the world. Its not about reward - punishment system. Its the overall feel that whatever you do may be worthless. Thats the real tragedy of the game. 
Not il click this and kill that and hocus pocus - reapers gone. 

And its not a friggin hard work ! Do you work in mine or somethin or are you playing the game that you enjoy ? 
Why would you call that a hard work !? 

[napushenko]

BD Manchild wrote...

Once again it seems like someone's missed the point of why people are so hard on the ending. Nobody is upset at the tone of the ending (at least I'm not); people are upset because it comes out of nowhere, doesn't make any sense, doesn't provide any real closure and is all over in just a couple of minutes.

second that. but providing closure is not the same as shep survives and lives happily everafter with his mates while edi serves them pina colada 

[BD Manchild]

napushenko wrote...

second that. but providing closure is not the same as shep survives and lives happily everafter with his mates while edi serves them pina colada 

I wasn't trying to imply that, and I agree; a satisfying ending with proper closure doesn't have to be happy; it just has to make sense.

[napushenko]

i know i know, just referencing to the happy ending part. hell, i have nothing against sheps survival.
but i have problem with all his squadmates surviving too, nevermind if its based on choices you did or not. youre fighting a reapers for godsake, god-machines who destroyed countless civilizations and some expect for everyone you know to get out of something like that totally unscathed. cant be done if the game and the trilogy want to have any artistic merit.
but sense of closure and that it makes sense really need to be done and hope it will be adressed in that dlc - expansion whatever that is coming.
im all in for indoctrination theory too cause it sounds cool and its slam dunk for both fans & company.

[Getorex]

The Razman wrote...

I've seen people say that there would be no problem with just having a happy ending as one possible ending. This is incorrect.

The nature of a game, or at least how we play games at present, is that we will always try to "win". Even in a story-based game like Mass Effect, we will take what we perceive to be the "best possible ending" and take that as the "winning" one. If you have a happy ending ... people will take that as the best possible one, completely negating the point of having an unhappy ending at all. There's no real bittersweet feeling if you can simply choose to turn it off and have a happy situation instead. We've already seen this in ME3. The "secret ending" has been seized upon by many people as being the "perfect" one. If you give gamers a sniff of an ending that works out better for the player's goals than the others ... they'll take it as a loosely defined canonical one.

If you want to have an emotional, bittersweet ending ... you can't have a button which says "press here to have a happy ending instead".

EDIT: Sidenote - This is only a response to people who say "why can't we have a happy ending?" Not to sound harsh, but I really don't care about anyone who's going to come in and say "But it wasn't that it wasn't a happy ending, I didn't like it because ...". This thread wasn't for that.

Pishposh.  Real life has happy endings up the yingyang.  Wars have happy endings as well. 

Guaranteed that IF they actually make the mistake of making the ME series into a movie series it will NOT have th crapheap ending that ME3 has.  It will not.  Why?  Test audiences.  Sorry, but "artistic integrity" ends at ticket sales and "test audiences".  Test audiences win EVERY time.  

The MOVIE version of ME3 will have the ending most of us demanded as an OPTION.  

Of course, a Ewe Boll/Mortal Combat-style ME movie series is going to suck anyway.  Think Green Lantern suckage.  Think Mortal Combat suckage.  Think Resident Evil 1 to 1000 (or however many there are) suckage. 

Think suckage in particular when you think ME3. 

Happy ending is a viable and realistic optional ending because...real life has them all the time, thus it is NOT "impossible".

[Getorex]

BD Manchild wrote...

napushenko wrote...

second that. but providing closure is not the same as shep survives and lives happily everafter with his mates while edi serves them pina colada 

I wasn't trying to imply that, and I agree; a satisfying ending with proper closure doesn't have to be happy; it just has to make sense.

Closure does not equal Shepard (and LI) dead.  Closure has absolutely NOTHING to do with mortality whatsoever.  

[napushenko]

Getorex wrote...


Happy ending is a viable and realistic optional ending because...real life has them all the time, thus it is NOT "impossible".

Did we ever fight hundred times more technologically superior race which destroyed countless and more advanced civilizations before ours and now they want us gone too ? 
Even the races from me-3 who developed their tech from the reaper tech and are basically galactic toddlers compared to them would have no fighting chance and would be squashed like bugs, but, this is the game so.. 
happy ending - ok. just, dont mix realism into it. 

Modifié par napushenko, 14 mai 2012 - 02:23 .

[Sgt Stryker]

The Razman wrote...

Which is fine if you're trying to make some kind of argument in favour of Bioware lying or something like that.

BINGO!

Why can't you just give me the evidence you say exists ... or admit that you're wrong? Not exactly an unreasonable request for you to back up what you're saying, is it?

Because I can't be bothered to sift through months-old threads looking for evidence to back up a claim that I never made in the first place? My original claim (going waaaaay back to the first time I quoted those two images) was that Bioware mis-advertised their product. That is all.

Sorry mate, but this is why I don't respect you the way I do some of the other people in this thread. 

Well then, it's a damn good thing I wasn't looking for your respect.

I'd get used to saying that if I were you, if this is your usual attitude.

Works for me. I didn't come here to make friends, anyway.

[Getorex]

napushenko wrote...

Getorex wrote...


Happy ending is a viable and realistic optional ending because...real life has them all the time, thus it is NOT "impossible".

Did we ever fight hundred times more technologically superior race which destroyed countless and more advanced civilizations before ours and now they want us gone too ? 
Even the races from me-3 who developed their tech from the reaper tech and are basically galactic toddlers compared to them would have no fighting chance and would be squashed like bugs, but, this is the game so.. 
happy ending - ok. just, dont mix realism into it. 

Nope, and never will cuz they don't exist.  See, this is a fantasy game with madeup villians and tech.  Shepard, with a HANDFUL of people with him, defeated a "human reaper" in ME2.  Shepard and a couple others.  

In ME1, SHEPARD was key to defeating a full-blown reaper by defeating the brains of the reaper (with aid of a mere 2 other people).    In ME3 there were defeated reapers managed with ONLY a few ships in the Turian fleet, etc.  Clearly they can have their @sses kicked quite readily.  Easy-weasy-peasy.  

This is a FANTASY game where magic happens (with blue, green, or red lighting effects!).  It is chock FULL of magic from the beginning (biotics = sorcerors/wizards/witches in traditional fantasy games).  There is no hard and fast rule here.  We have 2 games giving precedent for a mere squad of three people being key to defeating reapers.  Of COURSE they can be defeated in a "happy" ending.  Same as Sauron was defeated (essentially) by a wee midget lad in LotRs...by moving laterally rather than direct assault. 

In ALL Bioware's fantasy games you always have the same thing (ALWAYS): big, invincible seeming enemy, good guys fighting invincible seeming enemy against ALL odds.  In the end?  The good guys win.  Every time.  ME is precisely the same as DA or any other fantasy dungeons and dragons game.  The people wear spacey armor instead of silly plate armor or chain mail.  They carry energy weapons instead of silly swords or longbows.  They use biotics instead of incantations and using magic beans.  All the same thus they can all end the same way.  Any way desired.  No rules (unless you don't mind pissing off your core fans and source of income).

[Getorex]

slyguy200 wrote...

napushenko wrote...

Getorex wrote...


Happy ending is a viable and realistic optional ending because...real life has them all the time, thus it is NOT "impossible".

Did we ever fight hundred times more technologically superior race which destroyed countless and more advanced civilizations before ours and now they want us gone too ? 
Even the races from me-3 who developed their tech from the reaper tech and are basically galactic toddlers compared to them would have no fighting chance and would be squashed like bugs, but, this is the game so.. 
happy ending - ok. just, dont mix realism into it. 

There are also only like 2000 or so of them , and they need to take the whole galaxy.
By the final battle when you have the crucible, the advancement of the enemy is irrelevant. We argue that it should not require character death to take them down, and that such BS "tragedy" endings are only good when they make sense for the themes of the story. In ME it does not fit.

True.  The deaths of Shepard were 100% gratuitous and not self-evidently required.  They were just stuck in there for effect.  "You can destroy the reapers but you die".  Why?  Just because.  "You can control the reapers but you die".  Why?  Just because.  You know, the way people die when they control RC aircraft or other RC toys.  The way you always die when you control your car.  The way you die whenever you control your computer.  Oh...wait.

"You can 'meld' with the synthetics but you die".  Why?  Just because.  No real reason, just because.  Just. Because.  No rhyme, reason, or logic.  You just do.  The end.

What a pantload of crap.

[EricHVela]

What is a happy ending for Mass Effect 3?

Some say that it's when Shepard breathes (destroy). Some say it's when Joker and EDI are together (synthesis). Some say that it's any of them because the Reapers were stopped. Some say that none of the endings make enough sense to really know if they're happy endings or not.

I doubt that many are deluded enough to think that all-out war with a superior force won't have major amounts of casualties. In that same vein, I think there could be happy endings even with such massive losses depending on what one accepts as a happy ending.

[Getorex]

Shepard death = mature/adult? What crap. The game is foursquare targeted at the teenager crowd, particularly Jr High and Highschool, hence the massive boobification of all female characters tied to the seemingly contradictory "maturity" of no nudity, even seen from behind:women get into showers to have sex FULLY CLOTHED. Women wake up in bed in the morning after a night of sex WEARING THEIR BRAS - panties can be forgiven.

Yeah, that just SCREAMS "maturity" so, sure, Shepard should die to fit into that "mature" theme. Bullcrap. Plain and simple. Oh, and "logic" like "I had to create synthetics to kill organics before their own synthetics had a chance to kill them". Yeah, that is Tea Party "adult" logic right there ("Don't let the govmn't touch my Medicare!"). An educated adult, a mature adult, doesn't buy that sort of ridiculous "logic". The end could have literally (I'm not kidding) actually included butterflies and a unicorn and it would have fit right in with the "logic" and "maturity" of the game.

Modifié par Getorex, 14 mai 2012 - 03:39 .

[napushenko]

Getorex wrote...


True.  The deaths of Shepard were 100% gratuitous and not self-evidently required.  They were just stuck in there for effect.  "You can destroy the reapers but you die".  Why?  Just because.  "You can control the reapers but you die".  Why?  Just because.  You know, the way people die when they control RC aircraft or other RC toys.  The way you always die when you control your car.  The way you die whenever you control your computer.  Oh...wait.

"You can 'meld' with the synthetics but you die".  Why?  Just because.  No real reason, just because.  Just. Because.  No rhyme, reason, or logic.  You just do.  The end.

What a pantload of crap.

Lol, this i agree with. And obviously just because isnt good reason to die. But if they give coherent and convincible reason why ? 
Like, i dont know, the only way to defeat them is to put your life force in the machine. No other way, you must sacrifice. Space magic. What then ? This is cheap and all, but still. 

[napushenko]

Modifié par napushenko, 14 mai 2012 - 04:06 .

[Lobinic]

The end sucks more than a skunk is disgusting and repulsive.
So I think nothing will make me change my mind.