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Why you can't have a happy ending


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#51
Siegdrifa

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djarlaks10 wrote...

Siegdrifa wrote...

... not sure that people claim wishing a happy ending are wishing about dance party, dink beers while tellking jokes about how reapers got their badassfully kicked by characters awsomeness ...

Well, I would like that to be one of the endings, because we've been told for 3 or more years that our choices mattered. Shepard isn't some redemption-type character, he was shown as the ultimate badass throughout the trilogy, so I don't think there's something wrong with dance party, Star Wars ep VI-style ending. Again, if it is one of the variants, and not the only one ending like we currently have.


It wouldn't make sens for me as most of the galaxy and worlds are badly injured, billions of deads, i would rather focus on honnoring the sacrifice of others, my Shep's LI hold her hands looking for recompfort instead of kiss reward, but i'm not hostiles against people having "their satisfactions", especialy if there one way to have mine it not more or less legite in the end.

Being sacrifice, survival, party, what matter is how well written it is.
A badly written sacrifice doesn't make it heroic, as mush as as bad written happy ending doesn't left us satisfied.

#52
Docmeff22

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The happiness of the endings should be based on the sum of all of your choices and completion of Mass Effect 1-3. That would have been truly epic and would increase the replayability of the entire triology. What they did with the ending now is make my urge to replay the game completely nil.

#53
Nefla

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If the sad ending was well done, people would still choose it sometimes and it would make the happy ending all the more satisfying. In DA:O my favorite ending was the happy one where everyone lives, but I still ended several games letting my warden, Alistair, or Loghain die. The ending of ME is just so hopeless, depressing nonsensical, slapped on, confusing and seems more like the typical nonsense ending to a JRPG. I gave up playing JRPGs for a reason, I never wanted that kind of thing to leak into western games that I love. I beat ME3 and I was dumbfounded and horrified. When did they turn Mass Effect into Gurren Lagan? Into Final Fantasy: the spirits within? Into Wolf's Rain or FFX?

I wish there was an option for a happy ending, not without sacrifice but having the option of living, seeing what happened to your friends and allies, what the results of your actions were. In the current endings there is no hope and no future.

#54
Heather Cline

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I disagree with the OP. In DA:O we had the sad ending, the happy ending and the in between ending. The happy ending was where you did the Dark Ritual and everyone survived. The Sad ending was where you didn't do the Dark Ritual and the Warden died if she/he took the final kill. The in between ending was not doing the Dark Ritual and having Alistair or Loghain depending on who you had in your party at the time take the kill.

There were 3 different endings and not everyone took the happy ending that's for sure. So yes you can have your happy ending, your sad ending, your in between ending and your bitter ending. Bioware and the ME team just said a big F.U. to it's fans and gave us 1 ending with different colors and different levels of bad. That's what they did.

#55
The Razman

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Dandynermite wrote...

Lord the Rings has a happy ending.
Dead Space 2 has a happy ending.
Dragon Age can have a happy ending. (Which is about the humans being wiped out too)
Dragon Age 2 can have a happy ending.
Oblivion (another end of the human race game) has a fairly happy ending.
Skyrim has a happy ending.
Halo 3 has a sort of happy ending.
Fable can have happy ending.
Fable 2 can have a happy ending.
Fable 3 can have a happy ending.
Modern Warfare 3 has a happy ending.

Are you trying to really tell me Mass Effect CAN'T have a happy ending, despite many more people calling for it than you saying, you CAN'T have it...
Your trying to tell me you can stop a 50,000 year old organic harvest, but cannot have 15 people live and see each other afterwards? Rubbish.

Hold the line.

You've missed the point. Nobody ever said "games can't have happy endings". That's illogical, and I'm not sure how you interpreted what I said as that.

You CAN'T have a happy ending in conjunction with the option to have a sad ending. That is the point. To have a sad ending with an off-switch for the sad feelings that is meant to instil is just as bad as having no sad ending at all. It doesn't have any emotional impact. That's why you can't have a happy ending this time; because Bioware's sad ending wouldn't have worked if they had put in the option for a happy one too.

#56
The Razman

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Heather Cline wrote...

I disagree with the OP. In DA:O we had the sad ending, the happy ending and the in between ending. The happy ending was where you did the Dark Ritual and everyone survived. The Sad ending was where you didn't do the Dark Ritual and the Warden died if she/he took the final kill. The in between ending was not doing the Dark Ritual and having Alistair or Loghain depending on who you had in your party at the time take the kill.

There were 3 different endings and not everyone took the happy ending that's for sure. So yes you can have your happy ending, your sad ending, your in between ending and your bitter ending. Bioware and the ME team just said a big F.U. to it's fans and gave us 1 ending with different colors and different levels of bad. That's what they did.

I'm going to say something which will probably be controversial, and is subjective ... but Dragon Age: Origin's attempt at making a hard-hitting ending quite obviously failed. I've never seen one single person talk about the ending being sad, or emotional, or anything as such ... and honestly, it was a bit of a dud ending.

I know people will come out and say "That's not true, I did" ... but then everyone here is saying they hate the ending and saying that it's universal hatred, and people are coming out and saying "That's not true, I didn't hate it". Most people here think the majority verdict makes ME3's ending a failure too.

#57
Sinnerous

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Assuming just by the title, it's because BioWare is not Asian.

#58
Annie_Dear

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The Razman wrote...

Annie_Dear wrote...

OdanUrr wrote...

SgtHydra wrote...

I am firmly against anyone who wants a "happy ending" where Shepard survives and everyone has a big dance party.


You do know that, even if there were a "big dance party" type of ending, you could choose not to have that ending, don't you?


This!

Why not have multiple endings? Some happier, some less happier?

Because there's then zero point in having the unhappy ending at all. Unhappy endings simply don't work if you know it doesn't have to be that way.

It would be like having a button to turn off when you're in love. It has no power if you can simply choose not to love, and avoid all the bad emotions which can come as a result that you don't want to experience.


Um, no.

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#59
Kakita Tatsumaru

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The Razman wrote...

I've seen people say that there would be no problem with just having a happy ending as one possible ending. This is incorrect.

The nature of a game, or at least how we play games at present, is that we will always try to "win". Even in a story-based game like Mass Effect, we will take what we perceive to be the "best possible ending" and take that as the "winning" one. If you have a happy ending ... people will take that as the best possible one, completely negating the point of having an unhappy ending at all. There's no real bittersweet feeling if you can simply choose to turn it off and have a happy situation instead. We've already seen this in ME3. The "secret ending" has been seized upon by many people as being the "perfect" one. If you give gamers a sniff of an ending that works out better for the player's goals than the others ... they'll take it as a loosely defined canonical one.

If you want to have an emotional, bittersweet ending ... you can't have a button which says "press here to have a happy ending instead".

EDIT: Sidenote - This is only a response to people who say "why can't we have a happy ending?" Not to sound harsh, but I really don't care about anyone who's going to come in and say "But it wasn't that it wasn't a happy ending, I didn't like it because ...". This thread wasn't for that.

So you prefer a game where you can't win?
What's the point in playing?

#60
ArcanistLibram

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My happy ending died alongside Mordin. Everything else seems to be there just to destroy everything Shepard managed to save by the end of the game.

#61
Oldbones2

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Razman, in response to your question. I saved the council first.

#62
Grimez7

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The Razman wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

This is a game about choices, not to mention the original perfect ending, the hardest to get was indeed a happy ending. So yes there is no reason why there can be no "happy" ending,

I don't really understand what you just said.

You can have a happy ending, or you can have no happy ending. You can't have both. It's the nature of games and gamers ... we're not playing a story, we're playing a game, and we want to "win". Winning in the way we think about games and a bittersweet narrative ending are not compatible.

You can't have a bittersweet ending be a choice. The whole point of an emotional ending to something is that it involves something you don't want to happen. Nobody wants what happened at the end of ME3 to occur. If they have the option to simply not have it occur, and have a happy ending instead ... they will do it. And then the sad ending loses all its emotional power.


I think he meant that if there is a happy ending, it should be the hardest one to achieve.

#63
Dandynermite

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The Razman wrote...

Dandynermite wrote...

Lord the Rings has a happy ending.
Dead Space 2 has a happy ending.
Dragon Age can have a happy ending. (Which is about the humans being wiped out too)
Dragon Age 2 can have a happy ending.
Oblivion (another end of the human race game) has a fairly happy ending.
Skyrim has a happy ending.
Halo 3 has a sort of happy ending.
Fable can have happy ending.
Fable 2 can have a happy ending.
Fable 3 can have a happy ending.
Modern Warfare 3 has a happy ending.

Are you trying to really tell me Mass Effect CAN'T have a happy ending, despite many more people calling for it than you saying, you CAN'T have it...
Your trying to tell me you can stop a 50,000 year old organic harvest, but cannot have 15 people live and see each other afterwards? Rubbish.

Hold the line.

You've missed the point. Nobody ever said "games can't have happy endings". That's illogical, and I'm not sure how you interpreted what I said as that.

You CAN'T have a happy ending in conjunction with the option to have a sad ending. That is the point. To have a sad ending with an off-switch for the sad feelings that is meant to instil is just as bad as having no sad ending at all. It doesn't have any emotional impact. That's why you can't have a happy ending this time; because Bioware's sad ending wouldn't have worked if they had put in the option for a happy one too.


Fable 2. You save your family, are reunited and get your dog back, or everybody dies and you get loads of gold. Happy ending and a sad ending. Done. So yes, you can. 

#64
jimfixedit

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Fallout 3, for all it's faults, hit the nail on the head.

ending 1 - you sacrifice yourself to save the world, but you're remembered as a hero.

ending 2 - you send someone else to die and are remembered as a scumbag.

No "happy" ending (until the DLC) but it worked perfectly for me. AND, you at least see the ramifactions of your choice.

And anyway, if I want bunnies and unicorns then I should at least be given that option.
Currently the happy ending for ME3 is to take it out of the machine and play something else..

#65
Descy_

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SgtHydra wrote...



I'd much rather have a touching epilogue that reveals how each character went on with their lives without Shepard, but still touched by his influence, for better or worse.


Just like Fallout's ending.

At least then we woudn't be stuck with 10000000 questions.

#66
Blackymir

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t_skwerl wrote...

You can throw all the logic at me you want. I've thought long and hard about it. The bottom line is this; it's a video game. We can have a happy ending, if they make one.


This here... (to the OP)what the heck is wrong with you. So your telling me if you wanted a happy ending that couldnt happen??? I call BS on that. Your saying that because of an" artistic" change of direction which gave us control of happy/sad /middle of the road between ME2 to ME3 that it should negate what the game has always been about choice...thats flawed logic.

If you want to have your endings as they are now thats fine but dont come on here saying that there is no way for a happy ending cause there is. Im so sick of people that are always talking art and movies and the like when it comes to a video game. Yes there is art and yes they play out now more than ever like movies but its still at its deepest core a video game and when people begin to forget why we play them especially something like this...an RPG that really lets you make choices that can be good,bad,shades of grey then they just become cynical "movie" critics not gamers.

Respond if you want I really dont care but its people with your mindframe that will cause games like this to have to be pigeon holed into RGB or 123. More endings mean more choice which means more happy people...bottom line!!!!!

Modifié par Blackymir, 20 mars 2012 - 10:21 .


#67
TheIdiocyWizard

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My idea of a happy ending is that Shep and LI live and can retire to live together,BUT, at the cost of countless lives and many friends that you had to say goodbye to.
I agree that there shouldn't be an ending where EVERYONE lives and none of the allied forces were lost. The happy ending should come with a HUGE price. I think that would be bittersweet enough.

#68
Guest_slyguy200_*

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The Razman wrote...

I've seen people say that there would be no problem with just having a happy ending as one possible ending. This is incorrect.

The nature of a game, or at least how we play games at present, is that we will always try to "win". Even in a story-based game like Mass Effect, we will take what we perceive to be the "best possible ending" and take that as the "winning" one. If you have a happy ending ... people will take that as the best possible one, completely negating the point of having an unhappy ending at all. There's no real bittersweet feeling if you can simply choose to turn it off and have a happy situation instead. We've already seen this in ME3. The "secret ending" has been seized upon by many people as being the "perfect" one. If you give gamers a sniff of an ending that works out better for the player's goals than the others ... they'll take it as a loosely defined canonical one.

If you want to have an emotional, bittersweet ending ... you can't have a button which says "press here to have a happy ending instead".

EDIT: Sidenote - This is only a response to people who say "why can't we have a happy ending?" Not to sound harsh, but I really don't care about anyone who's going to come in and say "But it wasn't that it wasn't a happy ending, I didn't like it because ...". This thread wasn't for that.

There is no problem with having a happy ending with the cuurent ones, just make it the most difficult to achieve, so if you really did want it you would have to work for it. You could also involve some trade-offs, like new characters, abilities, or something worth sacrificing a happy ending in order to be worth it.
Also nothing in ME should be canon, especially the "bittersweet" ending, we were promised variety which we never really got.

#69
The Razman

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slyguy200 wrote...

There is no problem with having a happy ending with the cuurent ones, just make it the most difficult to achieve, so if you really did want it you would have to work for it.

You didn't really read the thread, did you.

The whole point is that if you do what you're suggesting, you instantly cheapen the impact of the ending by turning it into something that only happened because you screwed up. You can't have a sad ending if you know the only reason you got it is because you played badly, and you can simply go back and do it again. That turns the endings into nothing more complex than "win screens".

I probably said it a month ago when this thread was actually happening ... but having an off-switch for a sad ending robs it of all its power. That's all there is to it.

#70
Guest_slyguy200_*

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The Razman wrote...

slyguy200 wrote...

There is no problem with having a happy ending with the cuurent ones, just make it the most difficult to achieve, so if you really did want it you would have to work for it.

You didn't really read the thread, did you.

The whole point is that if you do what you're suggesting, you instantly cheapen the impact of the ending by turning it into something that only happened because you screwed up. You can't have a sad ending if you know the only reason you got it is because you played badly, and you can simply go back and do it again. That turns the endings into nothing more complex than "win screens".

I probably said it a month ago when this thread was actually happening ... but having an off-switch for a sad ending robs it of all its power. That's all there is to it.

Sadness does not deserve power, that is why it is a negative emotion.
Still, it is canon when it shouldn't be. And why didn't you consider the trade offs and stuff. A sad ending would be fine if they had done it right, but they screwed up. But why would anyone stick up for the BS we already have, it is simply ridiculous to me.
And we were also promised an ending where the reapers would win (at E3 i think) and big time triumphant ending and a huge but equally useful middle ground, we never really got either of those things.

#71
Callidus Thorn

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So by your logic The Razman, nobody with access to multiplayer picks anything other than destroy in order to get the little clip at the end? Since that could be argued to be the "best" ending possible.

#72
Legion64

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I am pretty sure that we didn't ask for a happy ending. Only one that makes sense.

#73
The Razman

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slyguy200 wrote...

Sadness does not deserve power, that is why it is a negative emotion.

What? You don't get to say "the emotion that this artwork gave me is wrong, and they were wrong for making me feel it". That's just silly. Stories which make us feel sad are some of the most powerful in existence.

And we were also promised an ending where the reapers would win (at E3 i think)

Nothing you say about what we were "promised" is worth paying attention to if you believe that. This was the quote:

In an inteview with NowGamer at Gamescom, we asked if BioWare was taking risks with Mass Effect 3's
plot,
including a negative ending in which the Reapers win. Gamble simply
said, "Yes". We asked him again to confirm what he had just said and he
said, "Yes".

Apparently anything that was asked of them which they didn't outright deny is a "promise" now. <_<

#74
MrAtomica

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So your answer to a perfectly fitting question is "It would not work because other people might be suckered into choosing it?"

Hang on a tic.

Did you really just type something to that effect? What exactly gives you the right to make a blanket decision based on what you think other people should choose? What exactly is the issue here, that other people might miss out on all the bittersweet? I'm not quite sure I understand.

What players of this series choose as their preferred ending is hardly something that should be knowingly suppressed. After all, it isn't as though a "sunshine and bunnies" ending somehow violates the fundamental presentation of this series. We've had fairly perfunctory conclusions for the previous two games, why should we suddenly be afraid of one this time around? Because some pseudo-philosophical "intellectual" believes that we all must partake in equal suffering for the greater good of some "higher message?" No thank you.

Ask the community at large whether they would be content with a happy ending, and I suspect you would find at least half or greater in agreement with the suggestion. That alone makes the inclusion of an appropriately executed "happy" ending a no-brainer.

Since your arguement hinges on the notion that a happy ending would remove the impact from any bittersweet one, I have a simple response for you -- it doesn't matter. Why doesn't it matter? For the same reason that it didn't matter in Mass Effect 2; this is a video game. Video games are, fundamentally, designed to be won in some fashion. For many, "winning" is achieved by a tangible sense of victory. Bittersweet can convey that feeling for some, but the number will quite obviously be smaller.

Furthermore, "bittersweet" is a very polite description of the current endings. To me, I would probably choose something more along the lines of "dark and depressing". From lurking on the BSN, this was not the case for everyone. But an overwhelming majority of vocal fans did not particularly view them as such.

My main point here is thus:

You, as an individual, are not in a position to make an argument such as you have made. It is true, in the sense that a happy ending would be chosen far more often than any of the current options, but that is neither here nor there. The existence of a happy ending does not remove the "bittersweet" endings from the game, it simply offers another choice. This series is predicated upon choice. A large part of the community has expressed a desire for a greater sense of choice. A forced dark ending works just fine when it is appropriate in the context of the game where it appears (see Red Dead Redemption). It simply did not work here, not as it is.

If you, and others like you, feel that a bittersweet ending is totally fine, that's just dandy. You have three options at the moment that perfectly convey doom and gloom. You even have the right to continue choosing them upon subsequent playthroughs. There are some of us who would never choose such endings if there were other options. Fortunately, our preferences are just as important as yours.

#75
Guest_slyguy200_*

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The Razman wrote...

slyguy200 wrote...

Sadness does not deserve power, that is why it is a negative emotion.

What? You don't get to say "the emotion that this artwork gave me is wrong, and they were wrong for making me feel it". That's just silly. Stories which make us feel sad are some of the most powerful in existence.

And we were also promised an ending where the reapers would win (at E3 i think)

Nothing you say about what we were "promised" is worth paying attention to if you believe that. This was the quote:

In an inteview with NowGamer at Gamescom, we asked if BioWare was taking risks with Mass Effect 3's
plot,
including a negative ending in which the Reapers win. Gamble simply
said, "Yes". We asked him again to confirm what he had just said and he
said, "Yes".

Apparently anything that was asked of them which they didn't outright deny is a "promise" now. <_<

    
Just because it makes you feel sad doesn't make it good, it must also add other feelings that make it seem worth it. Like with Mordin curing the genophage, he has success and redemption. He still died but he died after doing what he knew he had to do, and with no regrets, and he left a serious mark that meant something for the future of the ME universe. Not shepard though, it didn't really feel like he/she won anything, for the ME universe, due to all the BS in the ending probably.
And yet again it is still canon as nothing should be in ME, especially the ending. And you still didn't address the trade-off idea.

Dude, it may as well of been a promise, he directly mislead us.

Modifié par slyguy200, 10 mai 2012 - 11:24 .