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[Iakus]

Han Shot First wrote...

iakus wrote...


I can't help but feel sorry for people who think this is true.  Their happiness is dependant on others' sadness 

You've totally got me figured out. Nothing warms my chilly old heart quite like other people suffering.

Or maybe I just think that the nature of a sunshine and rainbows ending automatically makes a bittersweet ending the less desirable choice, thus depriving it of any emotional impact and making it pointless as an option.

Shepard surviving without becoming a war criminal =/= sunshine and rainbows ending

[LPPrince]

I started playing this franchise working to get a happy ending in the finale.

Imagine how I feel 5 years later.

[Han Shot First]

iakus wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...

iakus wrote...


I can't help but feel sorry for people who think this is true.  Their happiness is dependant on others' sadness 

You've totally got me figured out. Nothing warms my chilly old heart quite like other people suffering.

Or maybe I just think that the nature of a sunshine and rainbows ending automatically makes a bittersweet ending the less desirable choice, thus depriving it of any emotional impact and making it pointless as an option.

Shepard surviving without becoming a war criminal =/= sunshine and rainbows ending

I agree with that, so long as the two squadmates in the beam rush are dead.

It shouldn't be possible to complete the game without anyone on the team dying.

[Father_Jerusalem]

iakus wrote...

Father_Jerusalem wrote...

It's the "price" because that's what's currently in the game - Red is the only way you can even possibly survive, and as stated wipes out ALL synthetic life. If you want to be reunited with your crew, obviously, you have to live. There's really no way in the Blue or Green endings to survive, and if you want the price not to be genocide, then you're asking BioWare to, in fact, change the ending - which they stated they're not doing.

So, if they add a bit to the ending to show you surviving and reuniting, it has to be from Red, and everything that choosing Red entails.

Now you see why some of us are skeptical that the EC is actually going to accomplish much?

Nope. I see why some people are still upset with the EC because they want BioWare to change what they made in order to make them happy. The EC itself, I think, will accomplish what it's setting out to accomplish - adding clarity.

[The Razman]

iakus wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...

If you want to have an emotional, bittersweet ending ... you can't have a button which says "press here to have a happy ending instead.

I agree 100% with this.

When creating Mass Effect 3 the writers would have had to choose either a bittersweet ending or a fairy tell ending, but the two could not coexist as different possibilities within the same story. A finale that includes an ending where there is no sense of loss or sacrifice and everyone gets to live happy ever after, automatically renders any ending where people die or there is loss a lesser ending. This automatically undercuts the bittersweet ending and removes the emotional impact it might have otherwise had. Mass Effect 2 is a good example of this. It is possible to lose squadmates in that game, but only at the price of Shepard not being competent as a combat leader.

The writers had the right idea when they aimed for a bittersweet ending. It just wasn't executed well.

I can't help but feel sorry for people who think this is true.  Their happiness is dependant on others' sadness 

You're right. After I'm done with this post, I'm going out to knock ice creams out of the hands of little children.<_<

Just because there's a technical barrier preventing a happy and a sad ending co-existing within the same narrative does not make every person who believes in it "out to make everyone unhappy".

[Iakus]

Han Shot First wrote...


I agree with that, so long as the two squadmates in the beam rush are dead.

It shouldn't be possible to complete the game without anyone on the team dying.

Difficult to accomplish, maybe.

But we had plenty of unavoidable deaths throughout the game already.

[Sgt Stryker]

Han Shot First wrote...

iakus wrote...


I can't help but feel sorry for people who think this is true.  Their happiness is dependant on others' sadness 

You've totally got me figured out. Nothing warms my chilly old heart quite like other people suffering.

Or maybe I just think that the nature of a sunshine and rainbows ending automatically makes a bittersweet ending the less desirable choice, thus depriving it of any emotional impact and making it pointless as an option.

Who said the choice between Bittersweet and Happy (more accurately, Bittersweet and Less-bittersweet; the galaxy has seen enough destruction already) should be a on/off switch right at the end? What about building up to that across all three games?

Modifié par Sgt Stryker, 12 mai 2012 - 04:21 .

[Han Shot First]

iakus wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...


I agree with that, so long as the two squadmates in the beam rush are dead.

It shouldn't be possible to complete the game without anyone on the team dying.

Difficult to accomplish, maybe.

But we had plenty of unavoidable deaths throughout the game already.

None of them are on the team, however.

The problem with having Shepard and every single member of this team survive in ME3, is that it is a bit of a fairy tale ending, at least as far as the crew of the Normandy is concerned. (certainly not for the galaxy at large)

The two who went with Shepard in the beam rush should be clarified as dead in the EC IMO, as Bioware seemed to have originally intended.

Who said the choice between Bittersweet and Happy (more accurately, Bittersweet and Less-bittersweet; the galaxy has seen enough destruction already) should be a on/off switch right at the end? What about building up to that across all three games?

Whether it takes into account your actions in ME3 or your actions throughout the entire trilogy, having multiple endings where one of them has everyone on the Normandy survive *and* the best possible outcome as far as the galaxy goes, automatically renders the rest inferior. A rainbows and butterflies ending cannot coexist on an equal basis with endings where people die or the galaxy suffers more devastation.

For that reason I'm opposed to it, as well as it being thematically inconsistent with the rest of Mass Effect 3.

Modifié par Han Shot First, 12 mai 2012 - 04:30 .

[Iakus]

The Razman wrote...

You're right. After I'm done with this post, I'm going out to knock ice creams out of the hands of little children.<_<

Just because there's a technical barrier preventing a happy and a sad ending co-existing within the same narrative does not make every person who believes in it "out to make everyone unhappy".

There is no technical barrier.  There is only your preference in what story is told.

To this day, plenty of people run through the Suicide Mission killing off select characters because they want to see how the story continues without that character.

Having a happy ending does not invalidate having a bittersweet ending, and vice versa.  

But believing that is so means that you think people who want happy endings cannot have it because it somehow dimishes your own bittersweet ending.

And for that, I feel sorry for you 

[Sgt Stryker]

LPPrince wrote...

I started playing this franchise working to get a happy ending in the finale.

Imagine how I feel 5 years later.

Which is why I propose that the hardcore fans (i.e. those who either played through all three games or played ME2 with the Genesis DLC, AND got a high EMS score) should be rewarded with the possibility of a "Shepard lives, Reapers are defeated, Shepard is reunited with crew/LI" ending.

[Dan Dark]

iakus wrote...

The Razman wrote...

You're right. After I'm done with this post, I'm going out to knock ice creams out of the hands of little children.<_<

Just because there's a technical barrier preventing a happy and a sad ending co-existing within the same narrative does not make every person who believes in it "out to make everyone unhappy".

There is no technical barrier.  There is only your preference in what story is told.

To this day, plenty of people run through the Suicide Mission killing off select characters because they want to see how the story continues without that character.

Having a happy ending does not invalidate having a bittersweet ending, and vice versa.  

But believing that is so means that you think people who want happy endings cannot have it because it somehow dimishes your own bittersweet ending.

And for that, I feel sorry for you 

Seconded. And I'll say it again - your entire argument is flawed. Maybe there can't be a "perfect" ending, yes, but! If they could balance the pros and cons of every option equally, so that there are valid reasons to consider each one, and ensure each provides a meaningful, satisfying conclusion, there would then be no reason NOT to do so.

[Han Shot First]

Having a happy ending does not invalidate having a bittersweet ending, and vice versa.

But believing that is so means that you think people who want happy endings cannot have it because it somehow dimishes your own bittersweet ending.

It does.

If you have an ending where everyone on the Normandy survives and the galaxy has the best possible outcome, why would anyone choose an ending where people die as their personal canon? It is autmatically rendered a lesser ending, as it now becomes one where people only die if Shepard makes tactical or strategic blunders. (see Mass Effect 2)

[God_Emperor]

The beauty about games like Mass Effect is that there is the existence of multiple endings to enjoy based upon the decisions that have been made through the game, and in the case of Mass Effect all 3 games. At least this was the theory and what the game was supposed to deliver.

There is NO cannonical ending. The ending that the game has is the one that the player makes throughout the course of the journey. For an actual working example as to how this mechanic should have functioned see the absurd amount of variables that make up the various endings of Dragon Age: Origins. The only constant in every single ending is the general broad resolution that the blight is stopped. In Mass Effect, the same should be true; the only factor that should be equal in Mass Effect 3's ending should be that the Reapers are defeated.

How the Reapers are defeated and what happens to : 1) Shepard 2) The Crew 3) The individual Planets and 4) The galaxy as a whole are all variables that can and should wildly differ due to the choices throughout the game. One ending may have a bittersweet conclusion, while another should have a more KotOR like victorious resolution. It all depends how the player got to that conclusion that should determine what that conclusion is. In narrative terms think about it in terms of alternate universes where different choices led to different outcomes.

Now lets examine this from your player's perspective OP. A "best" ending doesn't invalidate the emotional impact of a "bittersweet" ending, that all depends on how said endings are written and executed. Furthermore the choice of vastly different outcomes for all the variables (As originally promised by the devs) provides ME the player with a much bigger incentive to replay the game and try different decisions to then have a different gaming experience and different conclusion.

I gurantee you that not just Mass Effect 3 but the original games as well would have a hell of a lot longer lifespan in my gaming queue if the games actually offered up vastly different outcomes in each of the details I mentioned above, not just Shepard but everyone individually as well as collectively. And depending how these different endings were executed, I would certainly experience different emotions associated to the different outcomes which in turn would make me appreciate the game much more.

It is my opinion that in choosing to go with generally one ending where all you change is the coat of paint really has cheapened the experience of the game, for me at least. Not only that but it has also hindered my future interest in additional playthroughs because why the hell would I want to replay all of these games over again, make "different" choices throughout each of them only to have the exact same result every single time? From a gamer's perspective I think the notion of choosing a single ending is the problem, especially when the saga was marketed and "allegedly" designed around the concept of choices lead to different outcomes.

My two cents...

[Iakus]

Han Shot First wrote...

None of them are on the team, however.

The problem with having Shepard and every single member of this team survive in ME3, is that it is a bit of a fairy tale ending, at least as far as the crew of the Normandy is concerned. (certainly not for the galaxy at large)

The two who went with Shepard in the beam rush should be clarified as dead in the EC IMO, as Bioware seemed to have originally intended.

Who cares about that?  several of Shepards friends from across the trilogy die.  Some right in front of his/her face as Shep watches unable to do a frakking thing about it!  Heck more than one planet falls to the Reapers and Shepard can do nothing but run away!  And this still isn't enough?  It's still a "unicorns and rainbows" ending if the Normandy isn't soaked in blood too?

Whether it takes into account your actions in ME3 or your actions throughout the entire trilogy, having multiple endings where one of them has everyone on the Normandy survive *and* the best possible outcome as far as the galaxy goes, automatically renders the rest inferior. A rainbows and butterflies ending cannot coexist on an equal basis with endings where people die or the galaxy suffers more devastation.

For that reason I'm opposed to it, as well as it being thematically inconsistent with the rest of Mass Effect 3.

No it doesn't.  In an rpg the "best" outcome is what the player decides is the best outcome.   Some people think Ultimate Sacrifice is the best ending fro DAO.  Others think Dark Ritual.  Me i prefer Redeemer.  And others think Knight Commander works for their Warden.  

If you think an ending where everyone lives is so much better it invalidates any other, that's on you.

[Han Shot First]

The only way a game can have have an ending where major characters die, and en ending where they all survive, and have both of them be equally satisfying, is to have the two endings affect the universe in different ways.

In the case of Mass Effect, this could have worked if the best possible outcome as far as the fate of the galaxy goes, could only be achieved through sacrifice on the part of Shepard and his team. People would die, but the future would be a little brighter. With the everyone lives ending the player gets the bonus of having saved everyone on his team, but it comes at the cost of a little more devastation and the galaxy having to spend a longer time rebuilding.

Modifié par Han Shot First, 12 mai 2012 - 04:47 .

[Lee80]

Cause we don't run that kind of establishment here...no happy endings, just massages you pervs. Joking! My random silliness sometimes has to have an outlet.

[Iakus]

Han Shot First wrote...

Having a happy ending does not invalidate having a bittersweet ending, and vice versa.

But believing that is so means that you think people who want happy endings cannot have it because it somehow dimishes your own bittersweet ending.

It does.

If you have an ending where everyone on the Normandy survives and the galaxy has the best possible outcome, why would anyone choose an ending where people die as their personal canon? It is autmatically rendered a lesser ending, as it now becomes one where people only die if Shepard makes tactical or strategic blunders. (see Mass Effect 2)

It doesn't

the beauty of role playing is you can have many different Shepards who make many different choices and have many diffeent outcomes.  More than just the color of the explosion Shepard dies in.

[Sgt Stryker]

Han Shot First wrote...

Having a happy ending does not invalidate having a bittersweet ending, and vice versa.

But believing that is so means that you think people who want happy endings cannot have it because it somehow dimishes your own bittersweet ending.

It does.

If you have an ending where everyone on the Normandy survives and the galaxy has the best possible outcome, why would anyone choose an ending where people die as their personal canon? It is autmatically rendered a lesser ending, as it now becomes one where people only die if Shepard makes tactical or strategic blunders. (see Mass Effect 2)

Not if the only way to achieve this "golden" ending is by importing a character all the way from the beginning, as I stated previously. It's a huge time investment, when you think about it.

Regarding ME2's Suicide Mission, which are "tactical blunders"? Is it tactically bad to have someone like Samara lead a combat fireteam? She has hundreds of years of experience in that field, why wouldn't she be a good candidate? Thane is an expert at infiltration, as shown by his recruitment mission. Is it a tactical blunder to select Thane for the vents? The answer to both questions is "no." The only way to know that Samara and Thane would fail at their tasks is if you have a priori knowledge of the outcome - if you meta-game, in other words.

Similarly, is it tactically wrong to ignore your crew's Loyalty missions? I would argue that's not necessarily true, considering that while you're spending time on these things, the Collectors are still out there gobbling up colonies. Again, what seems like a tactical mistake to you only appears to be that way because you've already played ME2.

Modifié par Sgt Stryker, 12 mai 2012 - 04:50 .

[Iakus]

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

Sgt Stryker wrote...

Which is why I propose that the hardcore fans (i.e. those who either played through all three games or played ME2 with the Genesis DLC, AND got a high EMS score) should be rewarded with the possibility of a "Shepard lives, Reapers are defeated, Shepard is reunited with crew/LI" ending.

People who used the Genesis comic clearly aren't hardcore fans.

Or, maybe we shouldn't start calling some fans "hardcore" and indirectly marginalizing the others.

I think he meant both those who played all three games or played Mass Effect Genesis

AND

had a  high EMS score

PS3 players have no recourse but to use the Genesis comic as they can't get ME1.

Modifié par iakus, 12 mai 2012 - 04:47 .

[Sgt Stryker]

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

Sgt Stryker wrote...

Which is why I propose that the hardcore fans (i.e. those who either played through all three games or played ME2 with the Genesis DLC, AND got a high EMS score) should be rewarded with the possibility of a "Shepard lives, Reapers are defeated, Shepard is reunited with crew/LI" ending.

People who used the Genesis comic clearly aren't hardcore fans.

Or, maybe we shouldn't start calling some fans "hardcore" and indirectly marginalizing the others.

Read my post again, I explicitly mentioned the Genesis comic. This was mainly in reference to the PS3 users, whose only option for a complete Mass Effect experience is to make the ME1 choices via the Genesis DLC.