329 réponses à ce sujet

[Father_Jerusalem]

bleetman wrote...

Father_Jerusalem wrote...

I'm ALWAYS in favor of dialogues between developers and the fanbase, because that way we can actually see how things are done, and give our input. THAT should be the ultimate goal of the #Retake movement, not "WE DEMAND ICE CREAM CAKE or whatever".

"Sometimes, you have to get someone's attention before they'll listen."

"You catch more flies with honey than with vinegar".

And getting BioWare's attention is one thing, what's the plan after that? I'm curious, what, precisely, is it you want? "New endings"? Okay, what do you want? Keep in mind that demanding "changed" endings will ****** off the people who like these current endings, sure we're an insignificant portion of the populace, but do you really think that's fair to us to have opinions forced on us? Added onto endings? Okay, I can get behind that. Added onto how? Doing what? With who? Where? For how many cookies?

You've got their attention. BioWare has responded that they're listening to feedback. Now's the time to stop review-bombing, to stop demands, to stop berating people, and to start having constructive ideas so that BioWare has someplace to start.

[kbct]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

kbct wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

And you do not have the sales data to back up what impact you think it has. VGC only has first weeks sales listed so far, MVC (very respectable group) has stated the first weeks release was beyond what Bioware or EA could ever of imagined as far as success goes in sales. EA stated they shipped vast amounts. None of these things have shown what the second or third weeks sales were and you knowing some people locally who returned a title or a store locally that has many copies does not equal vast drop in sales for Bioware or EA.

Dragon Age Orgins received 4.5 out of 5 stars. DA2 received 3.5 out of 5 stars. Here is the chart of sales:



ME3 received 2 out of 5 stars. What impact on sales do you think it will have? A positive impact?

I was around for the entire time DA2 existed and was very present on the fourms so showing me that is something I have seen more times than can remember. It is irrelevent however. DA2 was notoriously badly recieved for the entire content through the game, the current title is only getting attacked due to the last 10 minutes out of around 40hours of gameplay. DA2 was vast change from the previous product and had the negative impact of being not the same style of game as the previous and it was almost a spin off. This is not the case for ME3 and is still pretty much like the first two.  In fact I would say my reviw of that product is the longest one on the entire BSN so do not assume I am coming from lack of knowledge or experience here.

FIne, it's irrelevant to you. I wouldn't ignore it when DAO got 4.5/5 stars, DA2 got 3.5/5 stars, and ME3 got 2/5 stars.

[Lycius]

The PLC wrote...

Father_Jerusalem wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...

Mirajin wrote...

The PLC wrote...

You are a vocal minority..

QFT

Makes me wonder....if ME3s ending 100% amazing and everything we hoped for, what would the 'vocal minority' be b*tching about instead?

....a vocal minority that is voicing a complaint most people who played Mass Effect 3 had: that the ending sucked.

Go ahead. I'm still waiting. 675,001 unique complaints. Come on. Hell, I'm even giving you a break, going with the last numbers I had heard 1.35 million, not the 1.85 million reported right here in this thread. 

Prove it. I'll wait.

I'm waiting too. Come on.

Don't bother, Father_jerusalem is just a troll who's been destroyed in a couple other threads with his same partyline crap.

[Teacher50]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Teacher50 wrote...

Viyu wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

UntalkativeBunny wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...

Where is your proof that all the reviewers on metacritic and amazon are the same people posting here?

Like I said, this whole proof nonsense is pointless. You can't provide viable proof and neither can I, the numbers, pulls, reviews, etc are flawed plain and simple

Actually I have seen people actually say on here they bombed the game on those sites, but I can't say all of them are from here because not all of them have admitted it. Sorry Han though, you do not speak for those who have not said anything (meaning the non vocal) everyone else. 

@Viyu = You are a vocal minority. Whether that vocal minority are expressing the feelings of more than those who are speaking up is debatable and very likely more people disliked the ending than liked it but as far as vocal goes you are the minority. There is no need to go attacking me for stating the reality of the situation but if you feel it someohow invalidates your stance to have the word minority with regard to the specific vocal element you can do so. I'll listen but won't agree.

I don't recall attacking you. However I've tried relentlessly to get this thread back on topic. Which is, why is some guy that convieniently works for a place that advertises Bioware and EA get to be the authority on who is or ISN'T the majority or minority when he has nothing to prove it with? And why isn't anybody paying much attentiion to the fact Gamesutra advertises for publishers such as EA?

Yea... simply look at the adds on a page and you know where their payout comes from.

I doubt that is true, been around a long time and enough to know most sites use a third party that handles advertising such as banner adverts. Those third parties have multiple clients for mutliple products, Yahoo or other sites use that third party rather than going to individual publishers and companies to get specific adverts. They are not sponsered by EA in that regard because EA did not have any contact with Yahoo or other sites that use this third party company. Some sites do get sponsered such as Kotaku but they are few and far between.

There may seem to be some validity there but you discount the fact that web sites that are more critical are the ones generally not tied to that type of money making. So it holds the validity of partiality in question. Even if not valid, it would certainly be a point of perception and that's what brings them into question. I'd like to see an expose' done on that issue.

[starscreamerx31]

BiancoAngelo7 wrote...

I didn't realize they changed the words "vocal minority" to mean "absolutely everybody minus a few hundred people"...

this

[Viyu]

I would agree with you, but on one hand I think these "reviewers" need to stop too. The other part of the problem is that Bioware's been caught lying, and although we would LIKE to stop, we don't know if they're really listening to people just because they say they are. That's one of the biggest consequences to lying because it does eventually catch up, and its just not a reliable business practice. So I totally see why people are skeptical.

Many people who want the endings changed want content added to it, and if the people who liked the original ones liked it, then they can keep those. I think if you're concerned with how it's handled this isn't exactly the place to discuss this, as that's a whole separate issue entirely.

[starscreamerx31]

I would like to see where he got his numbers from that indicate those who are pro ending change are the minority?

[Father_Jerusalem]

Lycius wrote...

Don't bother, Father_jerusalem is just a troll who's been destroyed in a couple other threads with his same partyline crap.

Many have tried, none have succeded.

[bleetman]

Father_Jerusalem wrote...

And getting BioWare's attention is one thing, what's the plan after that? I'm curious, what, precisely, is it you want? "New endings"? Okay, what do you want? Keep in mind that demanding "changed" endings will ****** off the people who like these current endings, sure we're an insignificant portion of the populace, but do you really think that's fair to us to have opinions forced on us? Added onto endings? Okay, I can get behind that. Added onto how? Doing what? With who? Where? For how many cookies?

You've got their attention. BioWare has responded that they're listening to feedback. Now's the time to stop review-bombing, to stop demands, to stop berating people, and to start having constructive ideas so that BioWare has someplace to start.

There are more threads, blog posts and online articles painstakingly explaining what the problems people have with the endings and how they'd suggest going about 'fixing' them than I care to count. Hell, there's a thread around here opened by Bioware specifically asking what specifically people would do to improve it. Last I checked, it had around three and a half thousand replies.

You want to know what people are asking for? Go read about it. I lack the time or the patience to repeat it for your convenience.

[Lycius]

Father_Jerusalem wrote...

Lycius wrote...

Don't bother, Father_jerusalem is just a troll who's been destroyed in a couple other threads with his same partyline crap.

Many have tried, none have succeded.

Just did.

[Teacher50]

bleetman wrote...

Father_Jerusalem wrote...

And getting BioWare's attention is one thing, what's the plan after that? I'm curious, what, precisely, is it you want? "New endings"? Okay, what do you want? Keep in mind that demanding "changed" endings will ****** off the people who like these current endings, sure we're an insignificant portion of the populace, but do you really think that's fair to us to have opinions forced on us? Added onto endings? Okay, I can get behind that. Added onto how? Doing what? With who? Where? For how many cookies?

You've got their attention. BioWare has responded that they're listening to feedback. Now's the time to stop review-bombing, to stop demands, to stop berating people, and to start having constructive ideas so that BioWare has someplace to start.

There are more threads, blog posts and online articles painstakingly explaining what the problems people have with the endings and how they'd suggest going about 'fixing' them than I care to count. Hell, there's a thread around here opened by Bioware specifically asking what specifically people would do to improve it. Last I checked, it had around three and a half thousand replies.

You want to know what people are asking for? Go read about it. I lack the time or the patience to repeat it for your convenience.

^ this

[Vesji]

Dragoonlordz wrote...
...
@Viyu = You are a vocal minority. Whether that vocal minority are expressing the feelings of more than those who are speaking up is debatable and very likely more people disliked the ending than liked it but as far as vocal goes you are the minority. There is no need to go attacking me for stating the reality of the situation but if you feel it someohow invalidates your stance to have the word minority with regard to the specific vocal element you can do so. I'll listen but won't agree.

Could you provide any statistical and/or other data to support your claims?

If you don't have any, I will direct you to some relevant data you could use to "persuade" yourself:

Thread reffering to the statistical part of the arguments made against claims such as yours.
social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/10180155

The poll itself. (The most voted on, that is)
social.bioware.com/633606/polls/

Also, the facebook page associated with the "Retake Mass Effect 3" movement, from which you can also gather some data which could be of relevance.
www.facebook.com/DemandABetterEndingToMassEffect3 


I will also remind you of the main reason people are upset, and the main reason the "Retake Mass Effect 3" movement was created. That was the falsity of the claims made by BioWare before game launch.

Here is a thread dedicated to highlighting exactly that.
social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/323/index/10204263

Hope I clarified. Have a nice evening.

[hoorayforicecream]

kbct wrote...

FIne, it's irrelevant to you. I wouldn't ignore it when DAO got 4.5/5 stars, DA2 got 3.5/5 stars, and ME3 got 2/5 stars.

2/5 stars from whom?

[Father_Jerusalem]

bleetman wrote...

Father_Jerusalem wrote...

And getting BioWare's attention is one thing, what's the plan after that? I'm curious, what, precisely, is it you want? "New endings"? Okay, what do you want? Keep in mind that demanding "changed" endings will ****** off the people who like these current endings, sure we're an insignificant portion of the populace, but do you really think that's fair to us to have opinions forced on us? Added onto endings? Okay, I can get behind that. Added onto how? Doing what? With who? Where? For how many cookies?

You've got their attention. BioWare has responded that they're listening to feedback. Now's the time to stop review-bombing, to stop demands, to stop berating people, and to start having constructive ideas so that BioWare has someplace to start.

There are more threads, blog posts and online articles painstakingly explaining what the problems people have with the endings and how they'd suggest going about 'fixing' them than I care to count. Hell, there's a thread around here opened by Bioware specifically asking what specifically people would do to improve it. Last I checked, it had around three and a half thousand replies.

You want to know what people are asking for? Go read about it. I lack the time or the patience to repeat it for your convenience.

Yeah, I don't,.. actually care, personally. What I'm trying to say is that members of your movement need to focus on those kinds of things, the positive things that BioWare will pay attention to, and not... "Omg Yahoo says we're a minority!" things. 

You HAVE BioWare's attention. Now use it, don't throw it away with stupid petty threads like this one.

[Zaydin]

You claim to speak for the majority, but the reality is, the people who LIKED the endings see no need to talk about it on the internet or seek validation for their opinion with other people. So yes, you are a vocal minority. The people who enjoyed the game/endings are probably replaying the game, while the entitlement crowd are complaining on every forum on the internet that BioWare 'owes' them a better ending.

Newsflash: BioWare owes you nothing. And trying to drive down their profits/make it harder for them to make money off of the game means they are less likely to make that oh-so-coveted better ending DLC you are all whining about wanting. If they don't see any money to be made in making DLC< they'll just drop support for the game and move on to new titles instead. For better or for worse, BioWare is a company, and the goal of a company is to make money; if they see no money to be made, they won't bother.

Personally, I enjoyed most of Mass Effect 3, even if the ending was disappointing. I'm not going to let a five minute ending ruin my enjoyment of a game that took me over forty hours to complete and that I enjoyed immensely up until the very end.

Modifié par Zaydin, 20 mars 2012 - 09:54 .

[Father_Jerusalem]

Lycius wrote...

Father_Jerusalem wrote...

Lycius wrote...

Don't bother, Father_jerusalem is just a troll who's been destroyed in a couple other threads with his same partyline crap.

Many have tried, none have succeded.

Just did.

That's a tough one. How do I... how do I respond to such damning evidence? Maybe... hm... okay. I have it. I'll start with a:

"No."

And follow up with a:

"Blocked".

Damn, that was close, I almost lost that one.

[Dragoonlordz]

Vesji wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...
...
@Viyu = You are a vocal minority. Whether that vocal minority are expressing the feelings of more than those who are speaking up is debatable and very likely more people disliked the ending than liked it but as far as vocal goes you are the minority. There is no need to go attacking me for stating the reality of the situation but if you feel it someohow invalidates your stance to have the word minority with regard to the specific vocal element you can do so. I'll listen but won't agree.

Could you provide any statistical and/or other data to support your claims?

If you don't have any, I will direct you to some relevant data you could use to "persuade" yourself:

Thread reffering to the statistical part of the arguments made against claims such as yours.
social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/10180155

The poll itself. (The most voted on, that is)
social.bioware.com/633606/polls/

Also, the facebook page associated with the "Retake Mass Effect 3" movement, from which you can also gather some data which could be of relevance.
www.facebook.com/DemandABetterEndingToMassEffect3 


I will also remind you of the main reason people are upset, and the main reason the "Retake Mass Effect 3" movement was created. That was the falsity of the claims made by BioWare before game launch.

Here is a thread dedicated to highlighting exactly that.
social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/323/index/10204263

Hope I clarified. Have a nice evening.

You proved nothing. You need to learn the difference between "vocal" and "non vocal". My statement was true relating to the vocal element, you feeling like it makes your stance less valid is your own problem and I am not responsible for your insecurities. 50k vocal on poll, 30k vocal on Facebook is a minority who are being "vocal" out of 3 million+ potentially who bought it who are not.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 20 mars 2012 - 10:05 .

[hoorayforicecream]

Vesji wrote...

Could you provide any statistical and/or other data to support your claims?

If you don't have any, I will direct you to some relevant data you could use to "persuade" yourself:

Thread reffering to the statistical part of the arguments made against claims such as yours.
social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/10180155

The poll itself. (The most voted on, that is)
social.bioware.com/633606/polls/

Also, the facebook page associated with the "Retake Mass Effect 3" movement, from which you can also gather some data which could be of relevance.
www.facebook.com/DemandABetterEndingToMassEffect3 


I will also remind you of the main reason people are upset, and the main reason the "Retake Mass Effect 3" movement was created. That was the falsity of the claims made by BioWare before game launch.

Here is a thread dedicated to highlighting exactly that.
social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/323/index/10204263

Hope I clarified. Have a nice evening.

There's a heavy selection bias involved with the poll. A sample size of 50,000 is more than representative when it is pulled from a random sampling. However, a sample size of 50,000 on a game's official forum is a representative sample of the people who go to that forum, not the population overall. The people who go to a forum are definitely not representative of the overall ME3 population, because they are the self-selecting fans who care enough about the game to wish to post.

Basically, you're polling only the most vocal and hardcore of all the ME3 players, because those are the only people who come to the forum. It shows that most hardcore fans of ME3 dislike the ending. But it doesn't mean that most who played ME3 hated the ending... there's plenty of research that indicates most people don't even finish the games they play, ME3 included.

Presumably, those people who don't finish probably don't have much opinion on the ending.

[Lord Phoebus]

I've had low expectations of Bioware games for a while, I don't think the company has done anything innovative since KotOR and since KotOR, apart from ME2, their software has been okay (DA:O, JE), to poor (DA2, ME) in my opinion. I wasn't really surprised at the bad ending, because I haven't seen anything in a while to convince me that Bioware could produce a good ending. Bioware is good at writing conversations and making shiny cutscenes, but if you compare their characters and plots to Black Isle, Obsidian and CDPR they don't really do that well at the meat of the story. To use an analogy they cook an okay cake and then they do a whiz-bang job on the icing.

They wrote themselves into a situation where I knew the ending would involve a deus ex machina (the citadel fleet couldn't kill one reaper until shepard had lowered its barriers), and with the gameplay mechanics you knew it had to be something that a three man team would be required for. I was little surprised with the direction that they went with, they were pretty true to form in aping 70-80s space operas until the ending which broke genre. I expected Shepard to die in order to complete the Christian allegory. Howevers, the rehash of the Architect from the Matrix and the destruction of the relays were a surprise (as a property where the developers intended to make other games (not involving shepard though) that choice ensured that any future games would be pre-shepard.) I was also surprised at the lack of closure regarding the companions and the civilizations you encountered (did saving the Rachni and Krogan eventually result in another war?) While disappointed in the ending, I wasn't really angry. I don't really feel that Bioware owes me another ending based on my experience.

That said, Bioware made some promises about the ending. They said it would not be a three colour choice, and it was. They said multiplayer wasn't required to get the best ending, and it is. If those promises were used in the promotion of the game, then a claim should be filed with the FTC for false advertising. Those are concrete statements and they can be proved to be false. If a company makes fraudulent claims about their product they should be held to task. This is why we have a FTC and BBB, to protect consumers from unethical business practices. It's bad enough that we don't have an independent gaming media providing balanced reviews, when companies promote their product on false pretenses they should be held to task, and I'll support anyone who does so.

[KroganShields]

You people are arguing over useless crap. Who gives a god damn about the minority or the majority, sh*t. You guys have literally FOUGHT with words to get Bioware's attention, and there you go! You got their attention! So what the CRAP are you doing here arguing with two and a half people who are most likely bored tonight and decides to take on everyone here about who is the minority or the majority. Do you think it's going to change anything? No. It won't. They're saying you're the 'vocal minority'? Well tough ****, YOU GUYS got Bioware's attention. Not them.

Do something about it. Don't pay attention to those reviews, websites, troll, being the minority, majority or if your father is going to take you out to the park tonight . Just keep focusing on using the fact that Bioware is LISTENING to the 'vocal minority'.

kkthnxbai

Modifié par KroganShields, 20 mars 2012 - 10:11 .

[MikoDoll]

I doubt that those who don't even finish the game would be among Bioware's more reliable consumers. "Hardcore" fans can still demonstrate the opinion of the segment of the fanbase Bioware can rely upon to buy their games in the future. When you have a stable following you don't have to worry as much over whether or not your game will sell.

Modifié par MikoDoll, 20 mars 2012 - 10:07 .

[crazyrabbits]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

There's a heavy selection bias involved with the poll. A sample size of 50,000 is more than representative when it is pulled from a random sampling. However, a sample size of 50,000 on a game's official forum is a representative sample of the people who go to that forum, not the population overall. The people who go to a forum are definitely not representative of the overall ME3 population, because they are the self-selecting fans who care enough about the game to wish to post.

Basically, you're polling only the most vocal and hardcore of all the ME3 players, because those are the only people who come to the forum. It shows that most hardcore fans of ME3 dislike the ending. But it doesn't mean that most who played ME3 hated the ending... there's plenty of research that indicates most people don't even finish the games they play, ME3 included.

Presumably, those people who don't finish probably don't have much opinion on the ending.

This is correct. The poll was flawed from the very beginning for several reasons:

a) by the poll creator's own admission, he whipped it together to find out what people thought, and ended up having to go back and reclarify the poll options to make more sense (meaning any data he collected should have been scrapped on the basis of misrepresentation)

 the poll options presented did not include a "have no opinion on the matter" - 2 of the 3 options were made to sound negative, even though 1 of them ("the endings are fine, we just want a brighter one") is vague and confusing in its intent

c) the link to that poll was spammed all over the BSN and social media sites, often attached to posts saying, "Tell Bioware how much the ending sucks!" There was no objectivity in the invite to the poll.

d) before it was fixed a handful of days ago, users could go on and vote multiple times. Hell, I voted 3 times myself for the first option.

There was no objectivity or "checks and balances" in that poll, yet the overzealous fans are using it as a means to an end, on the basis that it is objective and absolute.

[MikoDoll]

KroganShields wrote...

You people are arguing over useless crap. Who gives a god damn about the minority or the majority, sh*t. You guys have literally FOUGHT with words to get Bioware's attention, and there you go! You got their attention! So what the CRAP are you doing here arguing with two and a half people who are most likely bored tonight and decides to take on everyone here.

Yea its amazing how 2 people managed to derail the thread. It doesn't matter what the majority actually believe. A guy writing on Yahoo with obvious bias to Bioware has no EVIDENCE of what the majority want. Just that the game was reviewed well. Yeah because THAT is such wonderful evidence when companies pay off reviewers. Can we get back on topic guys ?

Modifié par MikoDoll, 20 mars 2012 - 10:11 .

[MDT1]

Guys is it realy that importent to proove to Father_Jerusalem who represents the majority?

In the end it comes down to business and how much money Bioware/Ea thinks they can loose/gain by ignoring us, regardles if we are majority or minority. They will have the relevant numbers.

Just hold the Line and thus show that you take this serious because it boils down to this: Will Bioware really believe us that we wont touch their products again? If they won't, our cause is already lost.

Modifié par MDT1, 20 mars 2012 - 10:14 .

[bleetman]

...Or you could keep arguing which side has the majority, as if it's remotely important.

Suit yourselves.