329 réponses à ce sujet

[Solmanian]

I don't want the ending changed. I do want them supplemented. I don't even demand some dlc (free or otherwise) to do this. I'd settle for a text massage from a dev with a reasonable explainations for all the things that didn't make sense. I realy don't need them to add some montage telling me about wrex baby and tali&garrus marriage or whatever, especially if this are things that will be visited in future installments (ME4).

[Father_Jerusalem]

MDT1 wrote...

Guys is it realy that importent to proove to Father_Jerusalem who represents the majority?

In the end it comes down to business and how much money Bioware/Ea thinks they can loose/gain by ignoring us, regardles if we are majority or minority. They will have the relevant numbers.

Just hold the Line and thus show that you take this serious because it boils down to this: Will Bioware really believe us that we wont touch their products again? If they won't, our cause is already lost.

It's not about who has the majority, and it's not you. It's never been about that. It's about that fact that if you continue to claim that, despite all credible evidence showing otherwise, how can the less extreme people even begin to deal with you and what you say you want? 

If you continue to be that blatantly dishonest, why should BioWare believe a word you say? Honestly, why? You're going up against a global company, this isn't the time for hyperbole. Forget words like "broken" and "majority" and "lied" and work on the actual issues that you have in order to get what you want. 

You HAVE BioWare's attention. You WON the first phase of the fight. Now you guys have to make sure BioWare listens, and things like this only serve to hurt your cause.

[XTR3M3]

people are as out of touch as the writers responsible for the ME3 ending if they think the only ones that didn't like the endings are the ones "being vocal". Not openly complaining about the ending does not equal liking the ending.
I really didn't say much about how bad Dragon Age 2 was after that game came out, I just decided to quit buying DCL and games from that franchise. They sold out and that game flopped. It is in doubt if there will even be more games in the ME franchise, but I will not be buying any DLC unless it includes an ending that actually makes sense.....or at least one that follows their own lore and plugs their obvious plot holes. The reason we are so vocal about this is they got SO MUCH RIGHT and then dropped the winning touchdown on the half-yard line in the superbowl while being wide open in the last seconds of the game.

[Vesji]

Zaydin wrote...
...
Newsflash: BioWare owes you nothing. And trying to drive down their profits/make it harder for them to make money off of the game means they are less likely to make that oh-so-coveted better ending DLC you are all whining about wanting. If they don't see any money to be made in making DLC< they'll just drop support for the game and move on to new titles instead. For better or for worse, BioWare is a company, and the goal of a company is to make money; if they see no money to be made, they won't bother.
...

I can not explain how much times I've come across "these" claims in the past week or so. Let me explain where you get it wrong.
I stumbled across a metaphor today, but I forgot the person who was it written from, so I can't give credit.

Imagine you go to a car broker wanting to buy a car. A ferrari. (for the sake of the example) The broker starts telling you what will be in your car. After it has been advertised enough, you feel like that will be a great investment, pay up and go home. After the car has arrived you hapily go to your broker and see it's a truck.

Does the broker owe you nothing? Sure.
Does he falsely advertise the car? Yes.
Is that a crime? Yes.

BioWare has flat out lied about the game and it's contents. This is a crame mate. It's not some silly discussion between teenagers. You guys have to understand that the "BioWare owes you nothing" argument is bull****.

We are all consumers, but in order to be responsible ones, we need to hold the people that not only undermine us subliminally, but flat out lie in order to cover themselves and milk us some more afterwords, accountable.

Here is a sum of all the lies we were told.
social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/323/index/10204263

Hope I explained myself properly.

Modifié par Vesji, 20 mars 2012 - 10:26 .

[GME_ThorianCreeper]

Father_Jerusalem wrote...

bleetman wrote...

Father_Jerusalem wrote...

And getting BioWare's attention is one thing, what's the plan after that? I'm curious, what, precisely, is it you want? "New endings"? Okay, what do you want? Keep in mind that demanding "changed" endings will ****** off the people who like these current endings, sure we're an insignificant portion of the populace, but do you really think that's fair to us to have opinions forced on us? Added onto endings? Okay, I can get behind that. Added onto how? Doing what? With who? Where? For how many cookies?

You've got their attention. BioWare has responded that they're listening to feedback. Now's the time to stop review-bombing, to stop demands, to stop berating people, and to start having constructive ideas so that BioWare has someplace to start.

There are more threads, blog posts and online articles painstakingly explaining what the problems people have with the endings and how they'd suggest going about 'fixing' them than I care to count. Hell, there's a thread around here opened by Bioware specifically asking what specifically people would do to improve it. Last I checked, it had around three and a half thousand replies.

You want to know what people are asking for? Go read about it. I lack the time or the patience to repeat it for your convenience.

Yeah, I don't,.. actually care, personally. What I'm trying to say is that members of your movement need to focus on those kinds of things, the positive things that BioWare will pay attention to, and not... "Omg Yahoo says we're a minority!" things. 

You HAVE BioWare's attention. Now use it, don't throw it away with stupid petty threads like this one.

^this

You guys expect to be treated like adults by bioware and get some answers, yet you act like children.

Maybe if your "movement" did not make such childish and useless threads and bash / personally attack every single solitary person who has a positive opinion about the ending, maybe you would be taken seriously.

[GME_ThorianCreeper]

Vesji wrote...

Zaydin wrote...
...
Newsflash: BioWare owes you nothing. And trying to drive down their profits/make it harder for them to make money off of the game means they are less likely to make that oh-so-coveted better ending DLC you are all whining about wanting. If they don't see any money to be made in making DLC< they'll just drop support for the game and move on to new titles instead. For better or for worse, BioWare is a company, and the goal of a company is to make money; if they see no money to be made, they won't bother.
...

I can not explain how much times I've come across "these" claims in the past week or so. Let me explain where you get it wrong.
I stumbled across a metaphor today, but I forgot the person who was it written from, so I can't give credit.

Imagine you go to a car broker wanting to buy a car. A ferrari. (for the sake of the example) The broker starts telling you what will be in your car. After it has been advertised enough, you feel like that will be a great investment, pay up and go home. After the car has arrived you hapily go to your broker and see it's a truck.

Does the broker owe you nothing? Sure.
Does he falsely advertise the car? Yes.
Is that a crime? Yes.

BioWare has flat out lied about the game and it's contents. This is a crame mate. It's not some silly discussion between teenagers. You guys have to understand that the "BioWare owes you nothing" argument is bull****.

We are all consumers, but in order to be responsible ones, we need to hold the people that not only undermine us subliminally, but flat out lie in order to cover themselves and milk us some more afterwords, accountable.

Here is a sum of all the lies we were told.
social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/323/index/10204263

Hope I explained myself properly.

Heres the thing though bud, just because they said something during the development of the game doesn't mean they have to follow through with it.

The game was in DEVELOPMENT during that period Bioware reserves the right to change anything they want about the game (you know, since it is their game) and frankly, they don't have to inform you about it.

EDIT: You don't see me complaining to Peter Molyneux about all the lies he said while he was developing every single Fable game.

Modifié par GME_ThorianCreeper, 20 mars 2012 - 10:34 .

[Vesji]

crazyrabbits wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

*snip*

*snip*

I understand, but you both misunderstand. I was just providing statistical data that we currently have and could be used for some analysis. What else do we have, actually?
There were a couple of other polls, but that is basically it.
At this point we can not state anything conclusive on the minority/majority issue, but we can observe significant diviations from the data we have collected thus far. 

[Viyu]

MikoDoll wrote...

KroganShields wrote...

You people are arguing over useless crap. Who gives a god damn about the minority or the majority, sh*t. You guys have literally FOUGHT with words to get Bioware's attention, and there you go! You got their attention! So what the CRAP are you doing here arguing with two and a half people who are most likely bored tonight and decides to take on everyone here.

Yea its amazing how 2 people managed to derail the thread. It doesn't matter what the majority actually believe. A guy writing on Yahoo with obvious bias to Bioware has no EVIDENCE of what the majority want. Just that the game was reviewed well. Yeah because THAT is such wonderful evidence when companies pay off reviewers. Can we get back on topic guys ?

This.

[wrdnshprd]

lumen11 wrote...

You guys do realise you ARE a vocal minority right? Large enough a minority to give pause, but still a minority.

no.  a vocal minority is those who thought ME2 lacked rpg elements.

i should know, im part of that vocal minority.

Modifié par wrdnshprd, 20 mars 2012 - 10:35 .

[Dragoonlordz]

bleetman wrote...

...Or you could keep arguing which side has the majority, as if it's remotely important.

Suit yourselves.

...But we must have closure!  Just kidding, I merely responded to one of the OP's first points in her first post. Others took it further but I don't really care one way or the other just find it amusing that someone can feel being a vocal minority means in any way shape or form that translates to minority who disliked the ending which is not the case. I did not reply to the context of what people enjoyed, I replied to the context of the vocal element from that first group. 

[ncknck]

hoorayforicecream wrote...
There's a heavy selection bias involved with the poll. A sample size of 50,000 is more than representative when it is pulled from a random sampling. However, a sample size of 50,000 on a game's official forum is a representative sample of the people who go to that forum, not the population overall. The people who go to a forum are definitely not representative of the overall ME3 population, because they are the self-selecting fans who care enough about the game to wish to post.

Basically, you're polling only the most vocal and hardcore of all the ME3 players, because those are the only people who come to the forum. It shows that most hardcore fans of ME3 dislike the ending. But it doesn't mean that most who played ME3 hated the ending... there's plenty of research that indicates most people don't even finish the games they play, ME3 included.

Presumably, those people who don't finish probably don't have much opinion on the ending.

Correct. Even more that poll isnt even representative for me3 players, because ME3 ownership is not required to vote. Any troll or a motivated enough person with multiple accounts could vote there.

Im not surprised though. I have an impression, from other threads too, that "happy endings" people generally do not seem to be friends with math.

Modifié par ncknck, 20 mars 2012 - 10:41 .

[Vesji]

GME_ThorianCreeper wrote...

Heres the thing though bud, just because they said something during the development of the game doesn't mean they have to follow through with it.

The game was in DEVELOPMENT during that period Bioware reserves the right to change anything they want about the game (you know, since it is their game) and frankly, they don't have to inform you about it.

I am unaware if that is a serious legal issue, but I will research and come back with a conclusive answer.
Have a question, though.

Why should anybody preorded then? Or buy for that matter?
If the company does nothing of the things they say "... will definitely be in the game.", then what assurance does one have, that the product will be anything like the one, the developers state it will be?
(That's just out of curiosity) 

[Dragoonlordz]

Vesji wrote...

GME_ThorianCreeper wrote...

Heres the thing though bud, just because they said something during the development of the game doesn't mean they have to follow through with it.

The game was in DEVELOPMENT during that period Bioware reserves the right to change anything they want about the game (you know, since it is their game) and frankly, they don't have to inform you about it.

I am unaware if that is a serious legal issue, but I will research and come back with a conclusive answer.
Have a question, though.

Why should anybody preorded then? Or buy for that matter?
If the company does nothing of the things they say "... will definitely be in the game.", then what assurance does one have, that the product will be anything like the one, the developers state it will be?
(That's just out of curiosity) 

All things said prior to retail is a road map of what would like to do, what intended to do and what might have done at that stage. All these things are subject to change during development. What matters in the end is what they finally produce "when" it is at retail not prior. If you continue to try to file complaints with FTC or attack them for giving you information which may have been correct at that time or what they wanted to do then the end result is they will no longer tell you anything until after the game is finished and in retail.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 20 mars 2012 - 10:46 .

[Getorex]

Faust1979 wrote...

I have to say I agree with this article we don't go around crying and forcing movie studios to try and fix their movies when they make a bad one. Where were these people when hollywood pumps out something like the Tim Burton Planet of the Apes or the awful Green Lantern? No they are just riled up over a games ending because one game they didn't like and now suddenly Bioware is evil it's stupid

No.  Games are MORE than movies and the Mass Effect series has had REPLAY value.  You play again and again and can experience something subtly or more radically different.  YOU are part director, part writer, part star of the game.  That NEVER happens in a movie and you generally only watch them once.

Mass Effect 3's ending sucked the joy out of replays.  They aimed for "hopeful" but gave us horrifically bleak.

First of all, point blank: Stargazer at the end is IMPOSSIBLE.  He cannot exist.  That is a fact.  I can demonstrate this fact very simply if you wish but the Normandy crew on that planet did NOT jump start a new civilization, they went extinct.  Fact.  Inarguable fact.  No hope.  

Destroying the mass relays instead of just inactivating them gives a lifeless, hopeless, bleak future to the galaxy and all who are now trapped in the Sol system.  Inactivating them instead of blowing them would offer "hope" that they could be repaired/reactivated.  Blowing them up is irreversible and permanent. 

The Red ending gives us some "hope" in that Shepard survives if you have enough points.  He/she takes a breath on the rubble pile.  HOPE!  But they f*cked it up by having the Normandy run away through a relay that is FOREVER gone.  They are marooned and doomed to go extinct.  No hope.

This all adds up to a bleak ending for ME3 and the series that sucks the joy out of replaying.

[GME_ThorianCreeper]

Vesji wrote...

GME_ThorianCreeper wrote...

Heres the thing though bud, just because they said something during the development of the game doesn't mean they have to follow through with it.

The game was in DEVELOPMENT during that period Bioware reserves the right to change anything they want about the game (you know, since it is their game) and frankly, they don't have to inform you about it.

I am unaware if that is a serious legal issue, but I will research and come back with a conclusive answer.
Have a question, though.

Why should anybody preorded then? Or buy for that matter?
If the company does nothing of the things they say "... will definitely be in the game.", then what assurance does one have, that the product will be anything like the one, the developers state it will be?
(That's just out of curiosity) 

I am not defeding it, it makes the business look bad obviously as it did in Bioware's case, but the game is in development and during that time anything is subject to change, hense why it is called development and why development does not come with a step by step instruction manual

To answer your question: Because they trust the company, thats why they pre-order, god knows I regret preordering Fable III, That has more broken promises then this game ever will.  Obviously Bioware's reputation is forever tarnished.

Still, I did not go on the internet and rage about Fable III, I played it, i said "wow that did not live up to anything Peter Molyneux told me would be in the game," then I sold it.  Which is what everyone else should be doing if they do not like the game.

[MDT1]

Father_Jerusalem wrote...

MDT1 wrote...

Guys is it realy that importent to proove to Father_Jerusalem who represents the majority?

In the end it comes down to business and how much money Bioware/Ea thinks they can loose/gain by ignoring us, regardles if we are majority or minority. They will have the relevant numbers.

Just hold the Line and thus show that you take this serious because it boils down to this: Will Bioware really believe us that we wont touch their products again? If they won't, our cause is already lost.

It's not about who has the majority, and it's not you. It's never been about that. It's about that fact that if you continue to claim that, despite all credible evidence showing otherwise, how can the less extreme people even begin to deal with you and what you say you want? 

If you continue to be that blatantly dishonest, why should BioWare believe a word you say? Honestly, why? You're going up against a global company, this isn't the time for hyperbole. Forget words like "broken" and "majority" and "lied" and work on the actual issues that you have in order to get what you want. 

You HAVE BioWare's attention. You WON the first phase of the fight. Now you guys have to make sure BioWare listens, and things like this only serve to hurt your cause.

I haven't claimed to be in the majority, if I was forced to bet I would bet on us, but I know I have absolutly no proof at hand that we are the majority. But I know Bioware has numbers that suggest how many we are, if we are the minority, Bioware in fact alread knows it.

We have a 300+ page thread with mostly complains what the ending did wrong and needs to be fixed, opend by Bioware to gain feedback. There are good vid's on youtube like Angry Joes "10 reasons why we hate mass effect 3's endings" that summarize our problems with the ending quite well and they have been forwardet to Bioware, it is Bioware's turn to adress those problems now if they want to do it at all and show that they are not just playing for time.

Modifié par MDT1, 20 mars 2012 - 10:54 .

[Vesji]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

All things said prior to retail is a road map of what would like to do, what intended to do and what might have done at that stage. All these things are subject to change during development. What matters in the end is what they finally produce "when" it is at retail not prior. If you continue to try to file complaints with FTC or attack them for giving you information which may have been correct at that time or what they wanted to do then the end result is they will no longer tell you anything until after the game is finished and in retail.

That doesn't leave me with much space to maneuver honestly.
What I get from all this, is "Don't listen to ANYTHING before the game is finished, even if it is stated by the developers themselves".
Then how do I find out if the last game of a trilogy will be anything like (or even connected) to the previous ones?

It just sounds so, I don't know, slimy, to just lie like that, or at least not dismiss it (in the end). Reminds me of when I go shopping for vegies. So much damned rotten tomatoes I've bought..

[Getorex]

Vesji wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

All things said prior to retail is a road map of what would like to do, what intended to do and what might have done at that stage. All these things are subject to change during development. What matters in the end is what they finally produce "when" it is at retail not prior. If you continue to try to file complaints with FTC or attack them for giving you information which may have been correct at that time or what they wanted to do then the end result is they will no longer tell you anything until after the game is finished and in retail.

That doesn't leave me with much space to maneuver honestly.
What I get from all this, is "Don't listen to ANYTHING before the game is finished, even if it is stated by the developers themselves".
Then how do I find out if the last game of a trilogy will be anything like (or even connected) to the previous ones?

It just sounds so, I don't know, slimy, to just lie like that, or at least not dismiss it (in the end). Reminds me of when I go shopping for vegies. So much damned rotten tomatoes I've bought..

So, advertising should be totally ignored I guess and you just have to roll the dice on whether you are getting a game about X or Y. 

[LordDain]

roadmaps and all that technicalities... fact is customer is king. unhappy customers=bad for business. bw seems to have a lot of unhappy customers atm. minority or not.

[GME_ThorianCreeper]

Getorex wrote...

Vesji wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

All things said prior to retail is a road map of what would like to do, what intended to do and what might have done at that stage. All these things are subject to change during development. What matters in the end is what they finally produce "when" it is at retail not prior. If you continue to try to file complaints with FTC or attack them for giving you information which may have been correct at that time or what they wanted to do then the end result is they will no longer tell you anything until after the game is finished and in retail.

That doesn't leave me with much space to maneuver honestly.
What I get from all this, is "Don't listen to ANYTHING before the game is finished, even if it is stated by the developers themselves".
Then how do I find out if the last game of a trilogy will be anything like (or even connected) to the previous ones?

It just sounds so, I don't know, slimy, to just lie like that, or at least not dismiss it (in the end). Reminds me of when I go shopping for vegies. So much damned rotten tomatoes I've bought..

So, advertising should be totally ignored I guess and you just have to roll the dice on whether you are getting a game about X or Y. 

Yaaaaah, the thing is, those are not advertisements. Find me an actual paid advertisement that is false.

Advertisements are those banners on the side of IGN's website, or the commercials during the walking dead.

Modifié par GME_ThorianCreeper, 20 mars 2012 - 10:58 .

[Ziroz]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Vesji wrote...

GME_ThorianCreeper wrote...

Heres the thing though bud, just because they said something during the development of the game doesn't mean they have to follow through with it.

The game was in DEVELOPMENT during that period Bioware reserves the right to change anything they want about the game (you know, since it is their game) and frankly, they don't have to inform you about it.

I am unaware if that is a serious legal issue, but I will research and come back with a conclusive answer.
Have a question, though.

Why should anybody preorded then? Or buy for that matter?
If the company does nothing of the things they say "... will definitely be in the game.", then what assurance does one have, that the product will be anything like the one, the developers state it will be?
(That's just out of curiosity) 

All things said prior to retail is a road map of what would like to do, what intended to do and what might have done at that stage. All these things are subject to change during development. What matters in the end is what they finally produce "when" it is at retail not prior. If you continue to try to file complaints with FTC or attack them for giving you information which may have been correct at that time or what they wanted to do then the end result is they will no longer tell you anything until after the game is finished and in retail.

Taken straight from the ME3 site

INTERACTIVE STORYTELLING
EXPERIENCE THE BEGINNING, MIDDLE, AND END OF AN EMOTIONAL STORY UNLIKE ANY OTHER, WHERE THE DECISIONS YOU MAKE COMPLETELY SHAPE YOUR EXPERIENCE AND OUTCOME.

It really did COMPLETELY surprise me

[Vesji]

GME_ThorianCreeper wrote...

*snip*

Yeah, I supposed so.
Leaves only one question though. Why didn't they just dismiss those claims they made before the launch, so people can just not buy it?
Sorry we just went a bit off topic there.

[Who is that Masked Man]

"Yahoo Subtly Bombs the Ending Movement"

Of course it does.

It's not as though nobody saw this coming. There were tons of replies in El_Spiko's thread telling him that the FTC complaint was a really bad idea. There were loads of people, Retake Mass Effect supporters included, who warned him that, however reasonable he and his supporters perceive his action as being, it would be regarded as extremist loony-fringe behavior by the media.

Those warnings turned out to be accurate. This should not be a shocker to anyone.

There have been several articles now that have taken up the "overzealous and angry nerds" line. You could of course dismiss all that as a dark conspiracy of writers who are secretly in the pocket of EA... but you really shouldn't. That label is dangerous. If it sticks, it will make it ever so much easier for Bioware and EA to ignore your opinion, if they so choose.

And you know what? I think that most of you Retake Mass Effect folks get that. Hence the petition, and the constant reminders to "be civil," and the donation drives to Child's Play. All are very smart, very classy moves.

The FTC complaint, though? Not so much.

And, personally, I think you're wasting your time even trying to defend it. The war over the ending is ongoing, but this battle is already lost.

[hoorayforicecream]

Vesji wrote...

crazyrabbits wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

*snip*

*snip*

I understand, but you both misunderstand. I was just providing statistical data that we currently have and could be used for some analysis. What else do we have, actually?
There were a couple of other polls, but that is basically it.
At this point we can not state anything conclusive on the minority/majority issue, but we can observe significant diviations from the data we have collected thus far. 

If your data is inconclusive, you don't use it. I mean... you could certainly say that a *lot* of players are upset. There's certainly more than enough for that. The whole majority/minority thing is argumentum ad populum anyway. I'm pretty sure people throw the whole 'majority' thing around because they want to feel like it adds legitimacy and validity to their claims. As bleetman has said, it doesn't (nor should it).

Personally, I don't have a stake in the ME3 thing. I haven't finished the game yet and I've been avoiding spoilers (which has become somewhat difficult). I just find legitimate statistical analysis interesting, and dislike it when it is used incorrectly (or disingenuously).