329 réponses à ce sujet

[GME_ThorianCreeper]

Vesji wrote...

GME_ThorianCreeper wrote...

*snip*

Yeah, I supposed so.
Leaves only one question though. Why didn't they just dismiss those claims they made before the launch, so people can just not buy it?
Sorry we just went a bit off topic there.

Because Bioware is not the Citadel Council! (had to do it )

All jokes aside, $$$$$ is why.  Thats usually why I wait for people's opinion on games before I make my purchases.  Mass Effect 3 is still a great game imo and that is why I own it.

[Vesji]

hoorayforicecream wrote...
If your data is inconclusive, you don't use it. I mean... you could certainly say that a *lot* of players are upset. There's certainly more than enough for that. The whole majority/minority thing is argumentum ad populum anyway. I'm pretty sure people throw the whole 'majority' thing around because they want to feel like it adds legitimacy and validity to their claims. As bleetman has said, it doesn't (nor should it).

Personally, I don't have a stake in the ME3 thing. I haven't finished the game yet and I've been avoiding spoilers (which has become somewhat difficult). I just find legitimate statistical analysis interesting, and dislike it when it is used incorrectly (or disingenuously).

Absolutely agreed. I really never inteded to prove anything on the "Majority/minority" thing. Heck, not even sure if EA themselves can conclude on that either. But what I tried to point out, was that from the data out there, we can see that a *lot* of players finished with the game, are upset by something. Majority or minority, we do not know. (and it doesn't really matter all that much, since it doesn't prove anything so special (at least imho))

Yeah? Where are you at right now? :innocent:

[Dragoonlordz]

Vesji wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

All things said prior to retail is a road map of what would like to do, what intended to do and what might have done at that stage. All these things are subject to change during development. What matters in the end is what they finally produce "when" it is at retail not prior. If you continue to try to file complaints with FTC or attack them for giving you information which may have been correct at that time or what they wanted to do then the end result is they will no longer tell you anything until after the game is finished and in retail.

That doesn't leave me with much space to maneuver honestly.
What I get from all this, is "Don't listen to ANYTHING before the game is finished, even if it is stated by the developers themselves".
Then how do I find out if the last game of a trilogy will be anything like (or even connected) to the previous ones?

It just sounds so, I don't know, slimy, to just lie like that, or at least not dismiss it (in the end). Reminds me of when I go shopping for vegies. So much damned rotten tomatoes I've bought..

It just means take what they say until actual release with a pinch of salt. There will always be changes during development and I consider it common sense to while keeping ear to the ground see what they intend to do, know that what they intend does not always occur. So if want more accurate representation of what they finally do with the retail game it is best to take what they say after release as themore serious stuff and the things they say prior to release as mere intentions and less serious. I personally do not pre-order very often at all because more often than not what you end up with is not everything they would like or mentioned prior to it hitting the shelves and there is always risk regarding content and especially enjoyment. 

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 20 mars 2012 - 11:11 .

[hoorayforicecream]

Vesji wrote...

Absolutely agreed. I really never inteded to prove anything on the "Majority/minority" thing. Heck, not even sure if EA themselves can conclude on that either. But what I tried to point out, was that from the data out there, we can see that a *lot* of players finished with the game, are upset by something. Majority or minority, we do not know. (and it doesn't really matter all that much, since it doesn't prove anything so special (at least imho))

Yeah? Where are you at right now? :innocent:

Level 6 in Mass Effect 2. First playthrough. I'm behind.

Modifié par hoorayforicecream, 20 mars 2012 - 11:12 .

[Ghost Warrior]

Mr. C wrote...

Fooxie wrote...

a bunch of overzealous and angry nerds

Well, tbh, that is the impression I'm getting as well.

Unfortunately, as am I.  I didn't care for the endings, but this whole fiasco is getting a bit out of hand.

+1

[Vesji]

GME_ThorianCreeper wrote...
Because Bioware is not the Citadel Council! (had to do it )

All jokes aside, $$$$$ is why.  Thats usually why I wait for people's opinion on games before I make my purchases.  Mass Effect 3 is still a great game imo and that is why I own it.

Good one  , though I'm not sure they wouldn't keep some information, regarding their affairs, secret from the public eye, so they can benifit later.

Yeah, ME3 was not a bad game. So many things just felt so disconnecting from the game and from the developer. First the "Day 1 DLC that was already finished before launch" thing, and the "Have to play multiplayer to get the "best" ending/s", and now the lies? I was not surprised by what I saw when I came here. ( Though it took some time.. forgot my account information, had to retrieve it just to see people's reactions )

[pace675]

Mirajin wrote...

The PLC wrote...

You are a vocal minority..

QFT

Makes me wonder....if ME3s ending 100% amazing and everything we hoped for, what would the 'vocal minority' be b*tching about instead?

It seems EMS for SP is the next biggest gripe, since it is *impossible* to get the "best" ending, that too was also another Bioware promise, that MP would not effect SP...I am starting to see a pattern here what about you?

Navasha wrote...

Sorry, but the "retake" movement doomed itself just like every movement that can't manage to keep their response in reasonable and appropriate boundaries.

The FTC and BBB childishness pretty much confirmed that the movement doesn't have that many rational and reasonable adults.

I think I can say this safely, that the majority of the Retake movement tends to be the ones wanting to bring attentions (in a good way with the charity donations), although there are a few other people that are taking it up a notch. Which is their right, stating that any consumer good will have feature X, and when you buy it, you find out that they did not include the feature. That is consumer fraud pure and simple, and that is the purpose of the BBB( I must state here that I do not approve of going to the BBB until Bioware is given more time. After all it does take time and reasources to evalute their coarse of action. As for the FTC, I facepalmed at that one).

For the most part we are reasonable and rational, we just want what was promised, nothing more nothing less. Heck some are willing to buy it as DLC (I say it should be for free, since it was suppose to be part of the shipped product, but that is a debate for another thread.)

Just for reference:

Interview with Mike Gamble (Associate Producer)
http://www.360magazi...ferent-endings/

“There are many different endings. We wouldn’t do it any other way. How
could you go through all three campaigns playing as your Shepard and
then be forced into a bespoke ending that everyone gets? But I can’t
say any more than that…”

Interview with Mike Gamble (Associate Producer)

Lot more here http://social.biowar...ndex/10056886/1

[robertm2]

50,000 out of 3.5 million is a massive minority. people just want to think that everyone is like them so they feel less stupid. please, please, bioware dont bend to the will of people who would seek to alter the art you have created. if anything add stuff as you always have but please dont start thinking the so called retake mass effect movement matters. they just want to infringe on your product because the game they have invested alot of time in(i myself have invested hundreds of hours) didnt end exactly how they wanted it to and they cant understand it is the way it is so some form of story can continue at an importable pace.

[Mad-Max90]

A lot of people, myself included, were angry (and justifiably so) when they lied about dragon age 2's "ending". All we got from that team was negative remarks towards those who hated it and stood up and said so. It was only after months after initial launch did they admit, "they could have done some things better". At the very least they're doing the process sooner than later...and I'll admit, the dlc for dragon age 2, is better than the **** they put on the disc. Would have been nice to see the expansion they were planning, but I guess I'll have to wait and see if dragon age 3 is any good

[Captain_Obvious]

I hate the endings, let me just make that clear. 

Yahoo, and whoever works for yahoo, and whomever writes articles for yahoo, is totally allowed to not take our side that the the endings need to be fixed.  Any person on these boards is allowed to not take our side that the endings need to be fixed.  Any person who plays ME3 and finishes it is allowed to go where ever they like on the internet or in person and speak about how they liked the endings. 

It's fine, it's great, and I'm glad they liked it.  I'd like some other options, but that's just my opinion.  I don't want to play ME any more because the ending killed it for me, but that's just my opinion.  I'm glad that others share my opinion. 

Seriously, can we please just stop calling out people like it's High Noon with Gary Cooper facing down Ian MacDonald with the love of Grace Kelly in the balance? 

Hold the line, but please don't spit across it. 

[Mad-Max90]

Where are people getting the 50,000 from? There are a lot of people dissatisfied about the ending. Who keeps saying only 50,000 people who played are upset about the ending? Even if it is 50,000 people simply writing them off as nobody isn't good either because it's still a pretty substantial number of people pissed off.

[Thomas Andresen]

o Ventus wrote...

People that like the endings never provide objective proof as to why it's good.

What you're asking for doesn't exist. For anything. There's no such thing as objective proof as to why something's good or bad. Even good/evil is subjective.

UntalkativeBunny wrote...

kbct wrote...

Here is the poll:

http://social.biowar...06/polls/28989/

I can't teach you statistics so you can interpret it correctly.

This proves nothing. The amount of negative votes are clearly bombed votes. You don't have to be a genius to figure that out. Just look at how pissed everyone is about the ending and the extremely childish lengths they've gone to and still are going to.

The only circumstance in which a poll is unbiased is if the participants are selected randomly, or if the poll actually includes everyone it's supposed to represent.

Han Shot First wrote...

Go to metacritic and amazon and compare ME2's reviews to ME3's. Then come back and try to argue that those who liked the ending of Mass Effect 3 were a small minority, while keeping a straight face.

I'm going to go with professional critics before user reviews. The user review considered most helpful, for the PC version, well, the best thing I can say about it is the language is good. So I'm going to stop there. The lowest aggregated score is 91, for the PC version. Granted, it's 3 points down from ME2's score, but it's still a great score.

DaJe wrote...

Actually vocal minority means anyone with negative feedback.

There was also a "vocal minority" upset with DA2 and look what a huge success that game was. Watch out sarcasm levels are reaching meltdown temperatures.

I actually think DA2 was a great game. The only game I ever played through completely more times was, and still is, KotOR. The overall story of DA:O might be considered sublime, compared to DA2, but with it's tedious game-play, I didn't enjoy playing it quite as much as I did DA2.

avatar2396 wrote...

Im not sure why the burden of proof is on me since i think its a vocal minority and this isnt a court of law or what side you are actually taking here to be honest. You are never going to have a full game completion and at this point the only people that should be counted at all should be the people who have finished. The game has only been out 2 weeks and there are plenty of people who havent finished that will is all im saying

I know one person in particular who is a huge fan of the series, but won't have time to complete it before his summer vacation. 'Cause he's got barely 2 hours a week to spend playing video games.

Viyu wrote...

I don't recall attacking you. However I've tried relentlessly to get this thread back on topic. Which is, why is some guy that convieniently works for a place that advertises Bioware and EA get to be the authority on who is or ISN'T the majority or minority when he has nothing to prove it with? And why isn't anybody paying much attentiion to the fact Gamesutra advertises for publishers such as EA?

Please. Seriously? For one, ads on the site has hardly ever anything to do with the reporters viewpoints. Site admins usually have minimal control over what gets through with Ad services like Google Ads. Second, the majority of the discussion in this thread has been about whether or not he's right, about whether the complaints are a minority. On topic. Last, Yahoo would never be among the places I'd go for news. Not to mention video game news(One of my primary sources for video game news is GameBanshee, to provide an example).

Modifié par Thomas Andresen, 21 mars 2012 - 12:21 .

[Salis777]

robertm2 wrote...

50,000 out of 3.5 million is a massive minority. people just want to think that everyone is like them so they feel less stupid. please, please, bioware dont bend to the will of people who would seek to alter the art you have created. if anything add stuff as you always have but please dont start thinking the so called retake mass effect movement matters. they just want to infringe on your product because the game they have invested alot of time in(i myself have invested hundreds of hours) didnt end exactly how they wanted it to and they cant understand it is the way it is so some form of story can continue at an importable pace.

91% of 3.5 million is a massive majority.

[FemmeShep]

Han Shot First wrote...

It is sort of accurate to call those who are active in trying to get the endings changed a vocal minority, since it isn't an activity most of the people who played the game are engaged in. But it is also misleading to call them a vocal minority, when they represent a viewpoint held by the  majority of people who purchased Mass Effect 3. The endings are hated by an overwhelming majority of people who played Mass Effect 3, but only a small percentage of those is active in Retake Mass Effect.

Put it this way: If politicians raise taxes in a city of 2 million, and 5,000 people hold a protest in response, it wouldn't be exactly fair to call them a vocal minority, if the majority of voters in that city are also unhappy about their taxes being raised.

The majority of the peple that make up the market rarely all complain. It usually takes the core fan base to make noise. And honestly, it's rare to see this many people upset about something. So I agree, to keep calling this a vocal minority is disengenious at best. 

Could you technically say the majority of the people that bought this aren't complaining? Maybe. But that then assumes that the majority of the people that bought it also were happy and liked the endings. That's a dumb assumption. Not everyone that has an issue with something complains.

But when a core fan base overwhelmingy gets this upset, it's a good indicator that a lot of people do not like what was given to them .

Modifié par FemmeShep, 21 mars 2012 - 12:41 .

[MelfinaofOutlawStar]

robertm2 wrote...

50,000 out of 3.5 million is a massive minority. people just want to think that everyone is like them so they feel less stupid. please, please, bioware dont bend to the will of people who would seek to alter the art you have created. if anything add stuff as you always have but please dont start thinking the so called retake mass effect movement matters. they just want to infringe on your product because the game they have invested alot of time in(i myself have invested hundreds of hours) didnt end exactly how they wanted it to and they cant understand it is the way it is so some form of story can continue at an importable pace.

That's 50,000 that answered a poll. And 3.5 million is a shipped number, not sold.

[cuzsal]

yahoo is still around?? lol

thought they went under

[kbct]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

kbct wrote...

FIne, it's irrelevant to you. I wouldn't ignore it when DAO got 4.5/5 stars, DA2 got 3.5/5 stars, and ME3 got 2/5 stars.

2/5 stars from whom?

Amazon. 1200+ reviews across all platforms. It averages 2.2 out of 5 stars.

[Unreal Warfare]

Mr. C wrote...

Fooxie wrote...

a bunch of overzealous and angry nerds

Well, tbh, that is the impression I'm getting as well.

Unfortunately, as am I.  I didn't care for the endings, but this whole fiasco is getting a bit out of hand.

+1. The Salarian roleplaying is getting a bit annoying aswell.

At least it will give them something to brag about to their children when they're older.

Whatever makes them feel special I guess.

Modifié par Unreal Warfare, 21 mars 2012 - 12:34 .

[kbct]

Thomas Andresen wrote...

The only circumstance in which a poll is unbiased is if the participants are selected randomly, or if the poll actually includes everyone it's supposed to represent.

Agreed. You need a random sample to predict the population with the greatest accuracy. Got it. The poll is a biased, self-selecting sample. Understood.

However, when there are 63K+ votes AND it is completely lopsided where only 2% liked the ending as-is, you can't just dismiss the poll ENTIRELY -especially when there is confirming evidence elsewhere - such as thousands of negative user reviews.

The percentage that liked the ending as-is is definitely higher than 2%. The question is how much higher. 20%? 40% 80%?

[FemmeShep]

Plus I would like to point out, even if it was just the core fan-base that were upset. Even if you wanted to make that argument. We are a very important demographic to them, as we are the most loyal and tend to purchase everything. We also tend to follow the company to new IP's.

So from a business perspective you don't want to ****** off your core fan-base.

[FemmeShep]

robertm2 wrote...

50,000 out of 3.5 million is a massive minority. people just want to think that everyone is like them so they feel less stupid. please, please, bioware dont bend to the will of people who would seek to alter the art you have created. if anything add stuff as you always have but please dont start thinking the so called retake mass effect movement matters. they just want to infringe on your product because the game they have invested alot of time in(i myself have invested hundreds of hours) didnt end exactly how they wanted it to and they cant understand it is the way it is so some form of story can continue at an importable pace.

Yes BioWare, please ignore the complaints of your most loyal customers. You know, the ones that buy all your DLC, follow you to new IPs. 

Totally ignore them. HerpDerp. 

Modifié par FemmeShep, 21 mars 2012 - 12:44 .

[Salis777]

kbct wrote...

Thomas Andresen wrote...

The only circumstance in which a poll is unbiased is if the participants are selected randomly, or if the poll actually includes everyone it's supposed to represent.

Agreed. You need a random sample to predict the population with the greatest accuracy. Got it. The poll is a biased, self-selecting sample. Understood.

However, when there are 63K+ votes AND it is completely lopsided where only 2% liked the ending as-is, you can't just dismiss the poll ENTIRELY -especially when there is confirming evidence elsewhere - such as thousands of negative user reviews.

The percentage that liked the ending as-is is definitely higher than 2%. The question is how much higher. 20%? 40% 80%?

And from a business perspective when you're talking 20%+ it's into major problem territory.  This is obviously wayyyy beyond 20.

And easily fixable, I might add.

Modifié par Salis777, 21 mars 2012 - 12:44 .

[GME_ThorianCreeper]

kbct wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

kbct wrote...

FIne, it's irrelevant to you. I wouldn't ignore it when DAO got 4.5/5 stars, DA2 got 3.5/5 stars, and ME3 got 2/5 stars.

2/5 stars from whom?

Amazon. 1200+ reviews across all platforms. It averages 2.2 out of 5 stars.

I did not realize people review bombing on amazon giving an overall great game a 1 or 2 rating because of literally the last five minutes and not the other 30 hours of awsome game counted as actual reviewers.

If anything the game gets a 4/5 because of it.  Thats why there are professional reviewers.

Modifié par GME_ThorianCreeper, 21 mars 2012 - 12:49 .

[Sacae]

This is simple.

Half the people in the 'movement' don't even know what they are talking about. They have just jumped on the hatred bagwagon. Most of this half are just people trying to damage Bioware or beat down anyone that likes the endings.

This half is in the 'movement' because they want to be cool, important, part of something bigger than themselves. And hey, they get to be hateful with 'reasons'.

They are also easily influenced with no ideas of their own. Most of what they say will be quotes from other people or links to other's videos. Because, damn the quotes and links got to be truth if enough people mindless link or quote them.

These half are what ruin the 'movement' and make you guys look like angry nerds.

The other half may have good reasons and be rational. But, they fail to realize that people have their own minds. The 'movement' does not = fact. The 'movement' does not = the majority. The 'movement' does not = every mass effect fan's ideals.

A lot of people these days throw around the word entitlement without good cause. Without knowing what it means, just to be cool.

But, its not logical to assume you thought is the truth and most hold the most power. It's an opinion.

Most people aren't in the 'movement'. BSN in itself is a minority of fans. A lot of people playing don't spend days on end here. Most people don't know about the movement. These people could like the ending.

The thing that makes you look like angry nerds the most is when you are blind to other's thoughts. When you flood positive threads with hatred. When you assume you are right, others are wrong.

These are opinions.

[kbct]

Salis777 wrote...

kbct wrote...

Thomas Andresen wrote...

The only circumstance in which a poll is unbiased is if the participants are selected randomly, or if the poll actually includes everyone it's supposed to represent.

Agreed. You need a random sample to predict the population with the greatest accuracy. Got it. The poll is a biased, self-selecting sample. Understood.

However, when there are 63K+ votes AND it is completely lopsided where only 2% liked the ending as-is, you can't just dismiss the poll ENTIRELY -especially when there is confirming evidence elsewhere - such as thousands of negative user reviews.

The percentage that liked the ending as-is is definitely higher than 2%. The question is how much higher. 20%? 40% 80%?

And from a business perspective when you're talking 20%+ it's into major problem territory.  This is obviously wayyyy beyond 20.

And easily fixable, I might add.

Agreed. There is a reason why EA/BioWare is in damage control mode and are "listening" to us. If you read this thread, they are playing the PR game by the book so far:

http://social.biowar.../index/10084349

Lots of anecdotal evidence too. How many people have you told? Word travels fast. Only six degrees of separation. I've read a ton of posts where they said they were the only one that posted on forums but the vast majority of their friends and family that didn't post on forums felt the same way.