319 réponses à ce sujet

[jumpingkaede]

alexcarter wrote...

hmm, I guess you haven't played the dlc "The Arrival"? In which they blew up a mass relay, and the energy released was on the scale of a supernova, offing some 300000+ batarians. Now, I'm  not saying the mass relay explosion caused by the citadel beam is indeed the same thing,  but at that time,  people (Joker and other pilots) don't know, and with that only precedence, you think they would like to stay and find out?

I have.  And I considered it just another one of the many "lots of speculation" plotholes the ending introduces. 

And I agree; if there WAS a time to flee it would be perhaps AFTER the Mass Relays explode.

But then you're left with two consistent possibilities only:

1.  Joker fled because the Mass Relays exploded.  He was right to do so because the explosions devastate every star system with a Mass Relay i.e., every major star system, and the explosions also destroy just about every fleet in the galaxy.  Probably Earth too.

2.  Joker fled because the Mass Relays exploded.  He was wrong to do so becaus the explosions are different than the Arrival explosion and every star system is fine.  Not sure why the Normandy got destroyed though.  Possibly the blast only affects ships (i.e., tech) so every ship in space at the time is certainly destroyed.

[Redbelle]

This is one of the plot holes BW need to fill. It's plot holes like these that have made ppl sit up and go uh?

[michal9o90]

1. How can joker knew about destroying Relay? If he fight in earth space, and if he was there till saw this shockwave, then a few second later, OK maybe a little more 10? 20s? Relay is already destroyed in green and red ending, because what we know from lexicon conecting relay to relay is an instant.

So Relay is destroyed before joker even can knew that.

Modifié par michal9o90, 21 mars 2012 - 07:51 .

[JPfanner]

alexcarter wrote...
just checked again, nope, pretty sure there is no beam in the Control case, so /relieved  I chose the Control ending haha 

...just kidding... but I agree with you, the cinematics are just there to make it look cool, now, doesn't this kinda invalidate all the rage of you and me about how it doesn't "make sense"? 

I don't think it does invalidate it really.  I think the endings are more in the "confusing and contradictory" category than in "open ended and speculative".  No one knows what exactly is going on or what happens afterwards.  You can look at codex entries for how things are supposed to work and then look at the few very short cinematics that show kind of what happened.  Then people take what they wanted and expected from an ending and try to fit stuff together.

So I really just try to figure out the little parts that I can make sense of and try to avoid the whole vertigo of the big picture.  I don't like the endings myself, I think everyone (including Bioware) deserved better.  I'm not all psychotic or angsty about it.  Extremely disappointed more like.

But this discussion has been fun and it was nice to see all the work that the OP made.  I'll have to check back later because I need to do some stuff that isn't Mass Effect related for awhile : )

[jumpingkaede]

michal9o90 wrote...

1. How can joker knew about destroying Relay? If he fight in earth space, and if he was there till saw this shockwave, then a few second later, OK maybe a little more 10? 20s? Relay is already destroyed in green and red ending, because what we know from lexicon conecting relay to relay is an instant.

So Relay is destroyed before joker even can knew that.

Maybe he is near one of the farther away relays lol.  So he got wind of it by radio contact from the ships that got exploded by the Citadel and Charon Relay.

As to why he was at a far away relay... lots of speculation?

[michal9o90]

this sound crazy jumpingkaede and i think no one was close to charon relay, because Hacket give an order all have to atack. Hmm sorry shepard give this order

Modifié par michal9o90, 21 mars 2012 - 07:56 .

[alexcarter]

jumpingkaede wrote...

alexcarter wrote...

hmm, I guess you haven't played the dlc "The Arrival"? In which they blew up a mass relay, and the energy released was on the scale of a supernova, offing some 300000+ batarians. Now, I'm  not saying the mass relay explosion caused by the citadel beam is indeed the same thing,  but at that time,  people (Joker and other pilots) don't know, and with that only precedence, you think they would like to stay and find out?

I have.  And I considered it just another one of the many "lots of speculation" plotholes the ending introduces. 

And I agree; if there WAS a time to flee it would be perhaps AFTER the Mass Relays explode.

But then you're left with two consistent possibilities only:

1.  Joker fled because the Mass Relays exploded.  He was right to do so because the explosions devastate every star system with a Mass Relay i.e., every major star system, and the explosions also destroy just about every fleet in the galaxy.  Probably Earth too.

2.  Joker fled because the Mass Relays exploded.  He was wrong to do so becaus the explosions are different than the Arrival explosion and every star system is fine.  Not sure why the Normandy got destroyed though.  Possibly the blast only affects ships (i.e., tech) so every ship in space at the time is certainly destroyed.

I would go for the latter, for the sake of not wanting to be named with something really horrible... But then again, I'd venture to propose that Normandy was damaged simply because the beam or the energy catches up the relay, somehow destroys the relay, and the mass effect tunnel is destroyed, effectively flinging Normandy out of FTL in a a rather violent manner, which, according to codex, would cause severe damages.

[Redbelle]

JPfanner wrote...

alexcarter wrote...
just checked again, nope, pretty sure there is no beam in the Control case, so /relieved  I chose the Control ending haha 

...just kidding... but I agree with you, the cinematics are just there to make it look cool, now, doesn't this kinda invalidate all the rage of you and me about how it doesn't "make sense"? 

I don't think it does invalidate it really.  I think the endings are more in the "confusing and contradictory" category than in "open ended and speculative".  No one knows what exactly is going on or what happens afterwards.  You can look at codex entries for how things are supposed to work and then look at the few very short cinematics that show kind of what happened.  Then people take what they wanted and expected from an ending and try to fit stuff together.

So I really just try to figure out the little parts that I can make sense of and try to avoid the whole vertigo of the big picture.  I don't like the endings myself, I think everyone (including Bioware) deserved better.  I'm not all psychotic or angsty about it.  Extremely disappointed more like.

But this discussion has been fun and it was nice to see all the work that the OP made.  I'll have to check back later because I need to do some stuff that isn't Mass Effect related for awhile : )

I think the whole "change the ending" discussions going on center around ME's attempt to go all metaphysical on us when Shepard is just a soldier who shoots ppl and makes the tough calls. Going where they did for the endings takes everything away from Shepard. His role in the ME universe, his authority, even the relationships he's built over the course of 3 games. If Shepard has to die then I'd prefer to let him die on the players terms. Not because he was written into a corner where all his choices are decided for him and there is no escape or way to alter the consequences of his final decision.

[jumpingkaede]

alexcarter wrote...

I would go for the latter, for the sake of not wanting to be named with something really horrible... But then again, I'd venture to propose that Normandy was damaged simply because the beam or the energy catches up the relay, somehow destroys the relay, and the mass effect tunnel is destroyed, effectively flinging Normandy out of FTL in a a rather violent manner, which, according to codex, would cause severe damages.

We're getting a little closer to something palatable.  So Joker isn't a coward per se he just made a foolish decision.

Since if he had never gone FTL and had instead stayed perfectly still he would be fine.  Like all the other ships in the galaxy.

Raises the question of why he went FTL in the first place but I guess we are attributing that to panic?  Still lots of speculation.

[alexcarter]

michal9o90 wrote...

1. How can joker knew about destroying Relay? If he fight in earth space, and if he was there till saw this shockwave, then a few second later, OK maybe a little more 10? 20s? Relay is already destroyed in green and red ending, because what we know from lexicon conecting relay to relay is an instant.

So Relay is destroyed before joker even can knew that.

while I don't agree that the beam would necessarily be shot through mass relay, I'm still entitled to feel relieved about my choice of Control, right?  
but really, I implore bioware ppl to make their life easier by just clarifying the endings a bit more, then we don't even need to discuss here 

[jumpingkaede]

michal9o90 wrote...

this sound crazy jumpingkaede and i think no one was close to charon relay, because Hacket give an order all have to atack. Hmm sorry shepard give this order

lol

I'm of the opinion that the ending was just put together with no thought or consideration to any of the things we're discussing.

Like why is Joker pressing a hundred different buttons furiously and looking backward at the blast.  It's just there to look cool.

[michal9o90]

@Redbelle hahha yeah... why the hell i can't as renegate say F*ck you, Screw you or something like that. And let die to all galaxy, or at least try in conventional way defeat reapers

[Menalaos1971]

alexcarter wrote...

jumpingkaede wrote...

alexcarter wrote...

hmm, I guess you haven't played the dlc "The Arrival"? In which they blew up a mass relay, and the energy released was on the scale of a supernova, offing some 300000+ batarians. Now, I'm  not saying the mass relay explosion caused by the citadel beam is indeed the same thing,  but at that time,  people (Joker and other pilots) don't know, and with that only precedence, you think they would like to stay and find out?

I have.  And I considered it just another one of the many "lots of speculation" plotholes the ending introduces. 

And I agree; if there WAS a time to flee it would be perhaps AFTER the Mass Relays explode.

But then you're left with two consistent possibilities only:

1.  Joker fled because the Mass Relays exploded.  He was right to do so because the explosions devastate every star system with a Mass Relay i.e., every major star system, and the explosions also destroy just about every fleet in the galaxy.  Probably Earth too.

2.  Joker fled because the Mass Relays exploded.  He was wrong to do so becaus the explosions are different than the Arrival explosion and every star system is fine.  Not sure why the Normandy got destroyed though.  Possibly the blast only affects ships (i.e., tech) so every ship in space at the time is certainly destroyed.

I would go for the latter, for the sake of not wanting to be named with something really horrible... But then again, I'd venture to propose that Normandy was damaged simply because the beam or the energy catches up the relay, somehow destroys the relay, and the mass effect tunnel is destroyed, effectively flinging Normandy out of FTL in a a rather violent manner, which, according to codex, would cause severe damages.

You're assuming that Joker fled the battle BEFORE Shepard makes his choice and used the Charon Mass Relay.  Why would he, though?  The Normandy is perfectly capable of FTL flight without using a Mass Relay.  Mass Relays are for making long jumps, but just traveling from one neighboring star to another ships use their own Mass Effect cores and conventional thrusters.

Since the ending scene in ALL endings shows joker in FTL flight 15 seconds after the Space Magic is being spread by the Relays, you can't just assume that Joker fled before this point.  There's just no justification.  The only thing that makes sense is that he fled AFTER using the Normandy's drives.

[txmn1016]

THANK YOU

This was the biggest effing problem I had with the ending. So thanks for pointing out the math/science aspect of it to BW (although it seems unlikely that they wouldn't be aware of it already). I hope this is something that they clarify after April.

[alexcarter]

jumpingkaede wrote...

alexcarter wrote...

I would go for the latter, for the sake of not wanting to be named with something really horrible... But then again, I'd venture to propose that Normandy was damaged simply because the beam or the energy catches up the relay, somehow destroys the relay, and the mass effect tunnel is destroyed, effectively flinging Normandy out of FTL in a a rather violent manner, which, according to codex, would cause severe damages.

We're getting a little closer to something palatable.  So Joker isn't a coward per se he just made a foolish decision.

Since if he had never gone FTL and had instead stayed perfectly still he would be fine.  Like all the other ships in the galaxy.

Raises the question of why he went FTL in the first place but I guess we are attributing that to panic?  Still lots of speculation.

it is a WRONG decision, based on incomplete evidences and extreme situations. And it is an UNDERSTANDABLE mistake... an analog would be, if you see a time bomb ticking crazily down to zero in your room, will  you a) run out of the room for safety, or stay and see if it really blows up? 

[jumpingkaede]

alexcarter wrote...

jumpingkaede wrote...

alexcarter wrote...

I would go for the latter, for the sake of not wanting to be named with something really horrible... But then again, I'd venture to propose that Normandy was damaged simply because the beam or the energy catches up the relay, somehow destroys the relay, and the mass effect tunnel is destroyed, effectively flinging Normandy out of FTL in a a rather violent manner, which, according to codex, would cause severe damages.

We're getting a little closer to something palatable.  So Joker isn't a coward per se he just made a foolish decision.

Since if he had never gone FTL and had instead stayed perfectly still he would be fine.  Like all the other ships in the galaxy.

Raises the question of why he went FTL in the first place but I guess we are attributing that to panic?  Still lots of speculation.

it is a WRONG decision, based on incomplete evidences and extreme situations. And it is an UNDERSTANDABLE mistake... an analog would be, if you see a time bomb ticking crazily down to zero in your room, will  you a) run out of the room for safety, or stay and see if it really blows up? 

Foolish in retrospect.  

[Titan98RG]

michal9o90 wrote...

Catroi wrote...

you can't use FTL in a star system (think about the asteroid belt) you would die

Yeah right, but i simply didn't mentioned this, because i want give a chance to bioware for explain this

2D vs 3D issue.  you can avoid the asteriod belt.

[michal9o90]

jumpingkaede wrote...
Like why is Joker pressing a hundred different buttons furiously and looking backward at the blast.  It's just there to look cool.

THIS! This is one more stupid and really funny thing, when i saw that i can't  hold myself almost die laughing. But compare this to others isn't that importnat.

Like shepard fight on Rannoch with reapers! I have no idea, reapers are that stupid machines, that even can't hit human, which have no escape. Bioware forced us to disscusing about only ending.

Bioware:

Sh*T we screw our game. What know? What we can do? - asked troubled employee

Nothing, just keep going, and screw the ending, and gamers will forgot the rest - answered general director.

[alexcarter]

Menalaos1971 wrote...

alexcarter wrote...

jumpingkaede wrote...

alexcarter wrote...

hmm, I guess you haven't played the dlc "The Arrival"? In which they blew up a mass relay, and the energy released was on the scale of a supernova, offing some 300000+ batarians. Now, I'm  not saying the mass relay explosion caused by the citadel beam is indeed the same thing,  but at that time,  people (Joker and other pilots) don't know, and with that only precedence, you think they would like to stay and find out?

I have.  And I considered it just another one of the many "lots of speculation" plotholes the ending introduces. 

And I agree; if there WAS a time to flee it would be perhaps AFTER the Mass Relays explode.

But then you're left with two consistent possibilities only:

1.  Joker fled because the Mass Relays exploded.  He was right to do so because the explosions devastate every star system with a Mass Relay i.e., every major star system, and the explosions also destroy just about every fleet in the galaxy.  Probably Earth too.

2.  Joker fled because the Mass Relays exploded.  He was wrong to do so becaus the explosions are different than the Arrival explosion and every star system is fine.  Not sure why the Normandy got destroyed though.  Possibly the blast only affects ships (i.e., tech) so every ship in space at the time is certainly destroyed.

I would go for the latter, for the sake of not wanting to be named with something really horrible... But then again, I'd venture to propose that Normandy was damaged simply because the beam or the energy catches up the relay, somehow destroys the relay, and the mass effect tunnel is destroyed, effectively flinging Normandy out of FTL in a a rather violent manner, which, according to codex, would cause severe damages.

You're assuming that Joker fled the battle BEFORE Shepard makes his choice and used the Charon Mass Relay.  Why would he, though?  The Normandy is perfectly capable of FTL flight without using a Mass Relay.  Mass Relays are for making long jumps, but just traveling from one neighboring star to another ships use their own Mass Effect cores and conventional thrusters.

Since the ending scene in ALL endings shows joker in FTL flight 15 seconds after the Space Magic is being spread by the Relays, you can't just assume that Joker fled before this point.  There's just no justification.  The only thing that makes sense is that he fled AFTER using the Normandy's drives.

I dont  assume he leaves BEFORE Shep makes up his damn mind about those three color thingies, in fact, I even proposed he can leave well after citadel shots the beams and lights up, but for the sake of argument, I will just say he leaves when the energy waves blows out.

15s seconds, really? Are you strictly following the cinematics as a guide of what actually happens now? those energy waves was spreading kinda slow on earth, I mean, as compared to how they spread on the galactic map,so what happens there?  ... I think the movies are just there to make it all more... cinematic, you can't really use it as a strict guide for the timeline 

[jumpingkaede]

michal9o90 wrote...

jumpingkaede wrote...
Like why is Joker pressing a hundred different buttons furiously and looking backward at the blast.  It's just there to look cool.

THIS! This is one more stupid and really funny thing, when i saw that i can't  hold myself almost die laughing. But compare this to others isn't that importnat.

Like shepard fight on Rannoch with reapers! I have no idea, reapers are that stupid machines, that even can't hit human, which have no escape. Bioware forced us to disscusing about only ending.

Bioware:

Sh*T we screw our game. What know? What we can do? - asked troubled employee

Nothing, just keep going, and screw the ending, and gamers will forgot the rest - answered general director.

lol I never understood that bit either but I accepted it as a game mechanic.  

Reaper laser blasts can bring down the Destiny Ascension or any cruiser in a single shot.

But if it hits 5 feet in front of Shepard it doesn't skill him.

And that's from Harbinger.

lolWUT

[jumpingkaede]

alexcarter wrote...

those energy waves was spreading kinda slow on earth, I mean, as compared to how they spread on the galactic map,so what happens there?  ... I think the movies are just there to make it all more... cinematic, you can't really use it as a strict guide for the timeline 

If you wanted to speculate I would say there is no evidence that the "waves" move faster anywhere else than they did on Earth.  You only see the "waves" three times and they move at approximately the same pace each time:

1.  On Earth.
2.  From the Citadel.
3.  When a Mass Relay explodes.

You also see what I'll call the "blast"; that's from the Citadel to the Mass Relay.  That goes pretty fast.  That's also what you see on the galaxy map.  Cinematic liberties aside.

Modifié par jumpingkaede, 21 mars 2012 - 08:25 .

[michal9o90]

Titan98RG wrote...

michal9o90 wrote...

Catroi wrote...

you can't use FTL in a star system (think about the asteroid belt) you would die

Yeah right, but i simply didn't mentioned this, because i want give a chance to bioware for explain this

2D vs 3D issue.  you can avoid the asteriod belt.

You travel to fast in FTL speed to avoid unknow asteroids. 4,33seconds to get from earth to Pluto. Besides still solar system is affected by various types of gravity

[alexcarter]

jumpingkaede wrote...

alexcarter wrote...

jumpingkaede wrote...

alexcarter wrote...

I would go for the latter, for the sake of not wanting to be named with something really horrible... But then again, I'd venture to propose that Normandy was damaged simply because the beam or the energy catches up the relay, somehow destroys the relay, and the mass effect tunnel is destroyed, effectively flinging Normandy out of FTL in a a rather violent manner, which, according to codex, would cause severe damages.

We're getting a little closer to something palatable.  So Joker isn't a coward per se he just made a foolish decision.

Since if he had never gone FTL and had instead stayed perfectly still he would be fine.  Like all the other ships in the galaxy.

Raises the question of why he went FTL in the first place but I guess we are attributing that to panic?  Still lots of speculation.

it is a WRONG decision, based on incomplete evidences and extreme situations. And it is an UNDERSTANDABLE mistake... an analog would be, if you see a time bomb ticking crazily down to zero in your room, will  you a) run out of the room for safety, or stay and see if it really blows up? 

Foolish in retrospect.  

maybe, but doesn't make him any less human, or any less than the Joker we are familiar with.

[Redbelle]

michal9o90 wrote...

jumpingkaede wrote...
Like why is Joker pressing a hundred different buttons furiously and looking backward at the blast.  It's just there to look cool.

THIS! This is one more stupid and really funny thing, when i saw that i can't  hold myself almost die laughing. But compare this to others isn't that importnat.

Like shepard fight on Rannoch with reapers! I have no idea, reapers are that stupid machines, that even can't hit human, which have no escape. Bioware forced us to disscusing about only ending.

Bioware:

Sh*T we screw our game. What know? What we can do? - asked troubled employee

Nothing, just keep going, and screw the ending, and gamers will forgot the rest - answered general director.

Joker pressing lots of buttons makes sense if you think of it in terms of fine tuning engnie performance and mass effect field for maximum speed.

Putting it another way. I'm in a boat with the sail up and the winds gusting. I let out and pull in the sail to maximise the performance of the sail to attain high speed........ Now imagine a.......um....... <cough ok bear with me on this> A sailing combine harvester is pursuing me and catching up. I'd be trying to fine tune the sail based on conditions to get the best speed in an effort to escape the threshers of certain doom.

I think flying the Normandy is a bit more involved than simply pushing a button to make it go fast. Altering mass fields and optimising engine output when something like what was catching up to the Normandy seems like the thing Joker would do. And the fact it was a doomed attempt and Joker kept fighting anyway knowing what was about to happen seems to be in character for him.

[Menalaos1971]

alexcarter wrote...
I dont  assume he leaves BEFORE Shep makes up his damn mind about those three color thingies, in fact, I even proposed he can leave well after citadel shots the beams and lights up, but for the sake of argument, I will just say he leaves when the energy waves blows out.

15s seconds, really? Are you strictly following the cinematics as a guide of what actually happens now? those energy waves was spreading kinda slow on earth, I mean, as compared to how they spread on the galactic map,so what happens there?  ... I think the movies are just there to make it all more... cinematic, you can't really use it as a strict guide for the timeline 

First, I only say that about assuming he fled before because you said he was in the jump between relays, which would require that Joker fled before Shepard made his choice to give him time to reach the Charon Relay and jump out before it exploded, and to point out that the Normandy is perfectly capable of FTL flight without needing to use the Relays.

Yes, I watched that one vid where they play all of the endings side by side.  In all of them it is 15 seconds after the Charon Mass Relay explodes (they show the galaxy with the beams spreading) that it then cuts to Joker trying to flee the blast wave.

Now, the first energy wave emitted by the Citadel/Crucible was very slow, but the ones emitted from the Mass Relays before they explode are travelling VERY fast.  From the view of the whole galaxy they're spreading over 100's of light years in seconds.