319 réponses à ce sujet

[michal9o90]

jumpingkaede wrote...

michal9o90 wrote...

jumpingkaede wrote...
Like why is Joker pressing a hundred different buttons furiously and looking backward at the blast.  It's just there to look cool.

THIS! This is one more stupid and really funny thing, when i saw that i can't  hold myself almost die laughing. But compare this to others isn't that importnat.

Like shepard fight on Rannoch with reapers! I have no idea, reapers are that stupid machines, that even can't hit human, which have no escape. Bioware forced us to disscusing about only ending.

Bioware:

Sh*T we screw our game. What know? What we can do? - asked troubled employee

Nothing, just keep going, and screw the ending, and gamers will forgot the rest - answered general director.

lol I never understood that bit either but I accepted it as a game mechanic.  

Reaper laser blasts can bring down the Destiny Ascension or any cruiser in a single shot.

But if it hits 5 feet in front of Shepard it doesn't skill him.

And that's from Harbinger.

lolWUT

Exactly, how can that be possible. Although I have a theory that Liara with biotic unbelievable strong Biotic, did barier and save our Hero. But still in other options, where wasn't biotic in team, my theory is fall down.

[jumpingkaede]

Redbelle wrote...

Joker pressing lots of buttons makes sense if you think of it in terms of fine tuning engnie performance and mass effect field for maximum speed.

Putting it another way. I'm in a boat with the sail up and the winds gusting. I let out and pull in the sail to maximise the performance of the sail to attain high speed........ Now imagine a.......um....... <cough ok bear with me on this> A sailing combine harvester is pursuing me and catching up. I'd be trying to fine tune the sail based on conditions to get the best speed in an effort to escape the threshers of certain doom.

I think flying the Normandy is a bit more involved than simply pushing a button to make it go fast. Altering mass fields and optimising engine output when something like what was catching up to the Normandy seems like the thing Joker would do. And the fact it was a doomed attempt and Joker kept fighting anyway knowing what was about to happen seems to be in character for him.

I've never seen Joker push hundreds of buttons like that before though.  If anything I would assume that EDI or an onboard VI would take care of that.

But I can even accept that part as suspension of disbelief.  The scene as a whole is silly.

Anyway, if we aren't getting different endings we will just get clarification on the scene.  It will most likely be one of the above possibilities though.  That is, Joker was fleeing the Mass Relay explosion by the Charon Relay.  And he went to or was near the Charon Relay because of some reason I don't know but Bioware will come up with one.

michal9o90 wrote...

Exactly, how can that be possible. Although I have a theory that Liara with biotic unbelievable strong Biotic, did barier and save our Hero. But still in other options, where wasn't biotic in team, my theory is fall down.

The truth is I can accept things like that for game mechanics if the experience as a whole is satisfying.  Shepard is dodging Reaper lasers by barrel rolling?  Uhm, okay, sure whatever.  But that's a pretty minor point and Shepard is awesome so I'll live with it.  

Modifié par jumpingkaede, 21 mars 2012 - 08:35 .

[KroganShields]

Amazingly done OP! Seems like you enjoy math and you carry a big brain on your shoulders. If it'd be me, well. Let's skip that question.

[alexcarter]

jumpingkaede wrote...

alexcarter wrote...

those energy waves was spreading kinda slow on earth, I mean, as compared to how they spread on the galactic map,so what happens there?  ... I think the movies are just there to make it all more... cinematic, you can't really use it as a strict guide for the timeline 

If you wanted to speculate I would say there is no evidence that the "waves" move faster anywhere else than they did on Earth.  You only see the "waves" three times and they move at approximately the same pace each time:

1.  On Earth.
2.  From the Citadel.
3.  When a Mass Relay explodes.

You also see what I'll call the "blast"; that's from the Citadel to the Mass Relay.  That goes pretty fast.  That's also what you see on the galaxy map.  Cinematic liberties aside.

Hm, I believe by "blast" you mean the beam that shoots from citadel to the relay? well, they travel from citadel to the relay at light speed, but then when entering the relay, they can do FTL. I have no problem with that. As for the energy waves, you see them spreading locally on  earth, as you listed, but you also see them spreading spherically on the galactic map, covering thousands of lights years or more in only one second, ACCORDING TO THE MOVIE. You really wanna stick with that? 

[alexcarter]

Menalaos1971 wrote...

alexcarter wrote...
I dont  assume he leaves BEFORE Shep makes up his damn mind about those three color thingies, in fact, I even proposed he can leave well after citadel shots the beams and lights up, but for the sake of argument, I will just say he leaves when the energy waves blows out.

15s seconds, really? Are you strictly following the cinematics as a guide of what actually happens now? those energy waves was spreading kinda slow on earth, I mean, as compared to how they spread on the galactic map,so what happens there?  ... I think the movies are just there to make it all more... cinematic, you can't really use it as a strict guide for the timeline 

First, I only say that about assuming he fled before because you said he was in the jump between relays, which would require that Joker fled before Shepard made his choice to give him time to reach the Charon Relay and jump out before it exploded, and to point out that the Normandy is perfectly capable of FTL flight without needing to use the Relays.

Yes, I watched that one vid where they play all of the endings side by side.  In all of them it is 15 seconds after the Charon Mass Relay explodes (they show the galaxy with the beams spreading) that it then cuts to Joker trying to flee the blast wave.

Now, the first energy wave emitted by the Citadel/Crucible was very slow, but the ones emitted from the Mass Relays before they explode are travelling VERY fast.  From the view of the whole galaxy they're spreading over 100's of light years in seconds.

nope, I didn't say he was in the jump between relays, I simply pointed out he's got time to run with FTL to the relay even after the explosion of citadel, so we are kinda saying the same thing here... 

on the galactic map, there are two kinds of spreading, one is the beam that travels linearly from one relay to another, and the other one is the spreading of energy waves spherically from each relay that is affected by the beam. They seem to be both traveling at really great speed. 

[Ravenmyste]

finally someone gets what i been trying to figure out as to why he was in FTL and how did the wave opening a portal before it enveloped Normandy i would seriously want to know where they landed if they was in the sol galaxy.

if joker was in FTL when the relay blew up he must have been pushing the engine to its limits to try to out run the wave, which we all know the engine was part reaper tech as we all found out that its could go alot faster then we ever seen i would have to say..

that joker or EDI pulled the safety override to the engine so that it could go slightly faster then the normal FTL engine drives, hence why we saw him being able to run slightly faster but you cant out run light no mater what if he was in the charron relay before it the beam hit it that would explain why the wave was behind him and over taken them faster then the ship could go so my bet was they wasn't at the charron relay they was already in transit when they hit got hit by the beam.

.{also you are using true math not the game math that  the game  universe uses so it could been possible to try to out ride the wave..}

so we need to figure out what happens to a ship that in mid transit and not its not instant travel by the way if you saw they had to open a portal to another relay so basically where he was running had to be away further then normal so it would take longer to reach{ not star trek NG thinking}

Where did joker and crew get stranded on and which planet in what galaxy?

Modifié par Ravenmyste, 21 mars 2012 - 08:55 .

[jumpingkaede]

alexcarter wrote...

Hm, I believe by "blast" you mean the beam that shoots from citadel to the relay? well, they travel from citadel to the relay at light speed, but then when entering the relay, they can do FTL. I have no problem with that. As for the energy waves, you see them spreading locally on  earth, as you listed, but you also see them spreading spherically on the galactic map, covering thousands of lights years or more in only one second, ACCORDING TO THE MOVIE. You really wanna stick with that? 

Hmm.



Fair point.  Although that is arguably not the energy wave but the relay explosion itself.  May be splitting hairs at this point.  The Citadel's energy wave isn't a relay explosion.

alexcarter wrote...

on the galactic map, there are two kinds of spreading, one is the beam that travels linearly from one relay to another, and the other one is the spreading of energy waves spherically from each relay that is affected by the beam. They seem to be both traveling at really great speed. 

There may be three in total.

1.  The Citadel's energy wave which is definitely not a relay explosion (it occurring before the relay explodes).  This energy wave is harmless to ships.  Presumably.  It IS established harmless to humans (at least it doesn't tear them apart).  

2.  The blast from the Citadel to the Charon Relay and onward to subsequent relays.  It is unclear whether this is harmful to ships or not.  However, THIS is unlikely to be what Joker is fleeing from since it is fast as hell, and narrowly focused.

3.  The explosion of subsequent mass relays.  This is most likely what you see on the galaxy map.  You DO see a mass relay explode (the Charon Relay).  In all fairness to Joker, he could have been concerned about this if he were anywhere near the Charon Relay.  Or he had time to react.

Now we begin to enter speculation.  Was he near the Charon Relay?  If so, why?  If not, how did he know the relay exploded?  He presumably didn't SEE the relay exploding due to the speed at which the explosion spreads.  You say he had "strange readings" but that's just speculation as well and sort of a reach.  Why would he have readings on a mass relay to begin with?

Modifié par jumpingkaede, 21 mars 2012 - 08:58 .

[P47 ace]

[quote]jonDawe wrote...

I'm not sure if standard newtonian/SUVAT equations are applicable to the ending.

The Normandy techniquelly (if it has is going 12c) will have pretty much infinite mass, meaning that it is very hard to understand how it will be travelling in space, due to the huge bending of space time (this is the only way that it could be moving faster then the speed of light).

The fact that it is moving this fast, will also mean that techniquelly it would be impossible under standard physics for the explosion wave to be even catching the ship (unless some how it's bending space aswell!?!?!?!?)and travelling faster then the speed of light

The real questions are:

How is the Explosion not following standard physics ---> this may imply that the nomandy doesn't actually escape at the speed of light.

If the ships can travel at the speed of light... WHY ARENT THEY USED AS WEAPONS??!? I mean they would have infinite mass etc, and would be capable of easily destroying any fleet, by simply flying into other ships?
[/quote]
if you are asking those question then you dont understand the entire consept of Mass Effectlook at the codex agian before u post
because of the Mass effect field the mass of an object is effectivly 0 thus allowing FTL speeds with out requireing inf

[/quote]

[alexcarter]

jumpingkaede wrote...


There may be three in total.

1.  The Citadel's energy wave which is definitely not a relay explosion (it occurring before the relay explodes).  This energy wave is harmless to ships.  Presumably.  It IS established harmless to humans (at least it doesn't tear them apart).  

2.  The blast from the Citadel to the Charon Relay and onward to subsequent relays.  It is unclear whether this is harmful to ships or not.  However, THIS is unlikely to be what Joker is fleeing from since it is fast as hell, and narrowly focused.

3.  The explosion of subsequent mass relays.  This is most likely what you see on the galaxy map.  You DO see a mass relay explode (the Charon Relay).  In all fairness to Joker, he could have been concerned about this if he were anywhere near the Charon Relay.  Or he had time to react.

Now we begin to enter speculation.  Was he near the Charon Relay?  If so, why?  If not, how did he know the relay exploded?  He presumably didn't SEE the relay exploding due to the speed at which the explosion spreads.  You say he had "strange readings" but that's just speculation as well and sort of a reach.  Why would he have readings on a mass relay to begin with?

I mean he got those "strange energy readings" right after when Shep made up his damn mind and started pole dancing or bumgie jumping, and the crucible is starting to fire up, this is of course my speculation, I just want to stress the fact that Joker definitely notices something strange is going on, and when citadel starts to give off those strange colored energy waves, or even shoots out that scary colored beam towards charon relay, he would know something BAD is gonna happen. That's likely the point he decides to GTFO. He doesn't need to know the relay will explode, in fact, he doesn't know, and that's why he would run with FTL to and enter the relay, otherwise he would've tried his luck with just FTL and be away from the sol system as far as possible

Modifié par alexcarter, 21 mars 2012 - 09:13 .

[jumpingkaede]

alexcarter wrote...

I mean he got those "strange energy readings" right after when Shep made up his damn mind and started pole dancing or bumgie jumping, and the crucible is starting to fire up, this is of course my speculation, I just want to stress the fact that Joker definitely notices something strange is going on, and when citadel starts to give off those strange colored energy waves, or even shoots out that scary colored beam towards charon relay, he would know something BAD is gonna happen. That's likely the point he decides to GTFO. He doesn't need to know the relay will explode, in fact, he doesn't know, and that's why he would run to and enter the relay, otherwise he would've tried his luck with just FTL

It's probably better for his character if he somehow knows the mass relay would explode.

Jetting off because of energy waves is a little... weaker in character.  I agree that he doesn't need to stick around for the whole thing if it's a bomb but in that situation?  What's the difference between dying from the bomb and dying from the Reapers?

The bottom line is that Joker's scene is written poorly in that he's taking off AT ALL.  More consistent would be Joker using the opportunity to blast some Reapers or trying to save Shepard.

[Redbelle]

[quote]P47 ace wrote...

[quote]jonDawe wrote...

I'm not sure if standard newtonian/SUVAT equations are applicable to the ending.

The Normandy techniquelly (if it has is going 12c) will have pretty much infinite mass, meaning that it is very hard to understand how it will be travelling in space, due to the huge bending of space time (this is the only way that it could be moving faster then the speed of light).

The fact that it is moving this fast, will also mean that techniquelly it would be impossible under standard physics for the explosion wave to be even catching the ship (unless some how it's bending space aswell!?!?!?!?)and travelling faster then the speed of light

The real questions are:

How is the Explosion not following standard physics ---> this may imply that the nomandy doesn't actually escape at the speed of light.

If the ships can travel at the speed of light... WHY ARENT THEY USED AS WEAPONS??!? I mean they would have infinite mass etc, and would be capable of easily destroying any fleet, by simply flying into other ships?
[/quote]
if you are asking those question then you dont understand the entire consept of Mass Effectlook at the codex agian before u post
because of the Mass effect field the mass of an object is effectivly 0 thus allowing FTL speeds with out requireing inf

[/quote]
[/quote]
ME2. The first time you get to the citadel a soldier gives the physics of firing a depleted uranium slug out of a rail gun. Simply put a slug can be accelerated fast to be put in the path of a ship, thereby diminishing the effectiveness of the kinetic barriers. Repeated shots will drain barriers further till the hull is exposed.

the problem with ship ramming is two-fold. First, it is only effective against non moving targets like a space station. While the mass impacting will do more damge than a slug getting that mass up to speed takes longer and the time needed to achieve sufficient impact velocity gives stations and ships time to be alerted to the ram ships intentions. Against another ship it can dance out of the way or just acelerate along the same course as the ram ship.

Slug, while packing less mass, if fired fast enough, gain mass. An object that approaches light speed gains mass if I remember my science, so ram ships are simply not cost effective when a slug will do the job

[bchesson]

I know it's been said already but well done OP.

I always assumed that the Normandy was trying to escape through the relay but I called shenanigans as soon as I saw the scene because like the codex says relay transit is instantaneous so how could the wave catch them in mid transit.

Here's part of the codex entry for Mass Relays:
"Once believed to be of Prothean origin, mass relays were in fact created by the Reapers using technology far beyond that of other living species. The enormous structures, scattered throughout the stars, create corridors of virtually mass-free space. This allows instantaneous transit between locations normally separated by years or even centuries using conventional FTL drives."

Using FTL in system doesn't bother me quite as much however. First of all the asteroid belt isn't some inpenetrable barrier...there is lots of space to get through. I'd assume that by the time of the game they've policed the system of asteroids and debris to make safe lanes of transit out to the relay. At least that would be my theory.

Modifié par bchesson, 22 mars 2012 - 03:05 .

[alexcarter]

jumpingkaede wrote...

alexcarter wrote...

I mean he got those "strange energy readings" right after when Shep made up his damn mind and started pole dancing or bumgie jumping, and the crucible is starting to fire up, this is of course my speculation, I just want to stress the fact that Joker definitely notices something strange is going on, and when citadel starts to give off those strange colored energy waves, or even shoots out that scary colored beam towards charon relay, he would know something BAD is gonna happen. That's likely the point he decides to GTFO. He doesn't need to know the relay will explode, in fact, he doesn't know, and that's why he would run to and enter the relay, otherwise he would've tried his luck with just FTL

It's probably better for his character if he somehow knows the mass relay would explode.

Jetting off because of energy waves is a little... weaker in character.  I agree that he doesn't need to stick around for the whole thing if it's a bomb but in that situation?  What's the difference between dying from the bomb and dying from the Reapers?

The bottom line is that Joker's scene is written poorly in that he's taking off AT ALL.  More consistent would be Joker using the opportunity to blast some Reapers or trying to save Shepard.

Nope, I meant Joker didn't jolt because of those energy waves, but simply because of the beam pointing at charon, which is a relay, or just the fact that citadel is already a mass relay itself, with all these enegy dancing around a relay, according to his experiece from Alpha relay, will cause some supernova class explosion, so he jolts off. Though of course he wouldn't know that beam is able to destroy the relay and fling normandy off the mass effect tunnel, henceforth stranding it in some system with that lovely eden planet where everyone smiles soooo contently... 

[alexcarter]

jumpingkaede wrote...


The bottom line is that Joker's scene is written poorly in that he's taking off AT ALL.  More consistent would be Joker using the opportunity to blast some Reapers or trying to save Shepard.

I kinda disagree here, if you think there is a supernova event coming, and nothing will leave a trace afterwards, including the insurmountable Shep, especially after citadel already blows up, would you still stay? 

Modifié par alexcarter, 21 mars 2012 - 09:35 .

[jumpingkaede]

alexcarter wrote...

jumpingkaede wrote...


The bottom line is that Joker's scene is written poorly in that he's taking off AT ALL.  More consistent would be Joker using the opportunity to blast some Reapers or trying to save Shepard.

I kinda disagree here, if you think there is a supernova event coming, and nothing will leave a trace afterwards, including the insurmountable Shep, especially after citadel already blows up, would you still stay? 

Well.  You and I would have to agree on where he is when he thinks the supernova event is coming first.

If he is on or near Earth and in the middle of fighting the Reapers like he SHOULD BE, then yes; he should stay.

If he is at or near the Charon Relay or another Relay for some reason, then by all means; take off.

[bchesson]

OP I do have a question for you. Where did you find the number that FTL is 12 light years in 24 hours? Here is a quote I found in the codex entry for FTL: Drive Appearance.

"To an outside observer, a ship within a mass effect drive envelope appears blue-shifted. If within a field that allows travel at twice the speed of light, any radiation it emits has twice the energy as normal. If the ship is in a field of about 200 times light speed, it radiates visible light as x-rays and gamma rays, and the infrared heat from the hull is blue-shifted up into the visible spectrum or higher. "

So for your calculations are you assuming FTL speeds in the Mass Effect universe are fixed? From the way the codex entries read the speeds can vary depending on the size of your Eezo core and the amount of energy you put in to drive it.

From codex entry FTL Drive:
"The amount of element zero and power required for a drive increases exponentially to the mass being moved and the degree it is being lightened. Very massive ships or very high speeds are prohibitively expensive."

From codex entry Normandy SR1:
"Also contributing to stealth is the Normandy's revolutionary Tantalus drive, a mass effect core double the standard size."

So because of Normandy's double size Eezo core she can attain higher FTL speeds than standard ships in the Mass Effect universe.

Modifié par bchesson, 21 mars 2012 - 10:03 .

[alexcarter]

jumpingkaede wrote...

alexcarter wrote...

jumpingkaede wrote...


The bottom line is that Joker's scene is written poorly in that he's taking off AT ALL.  More consistent would be Joker using the opportunity to blast some Reapers or trying to save Shepard.

I kinda disagree here, if you think there is a supernova event coming, and nothing will leave a trace afterwards, including the insurmountable Shep, especially after citadel already blows up, would you still stay? 

Well.  You and I would have to agree on where he is when he thinks the supernova event is coming first.

If he is on or near Earth and in the middle of fighting the Reapers like he SHOULD BE, then yes; he should stay.

If he is at or near the Charon Relay or another Relay for some reason, then by all means; take off.

it begs the question why he would be near charon relay in the first place, this, to quote a really famous word these days in the forum, is a "plot hole". While in my interpretation, his action doesn't involve fancy , it is only human. 

[Fulgrim88]

I think if you can dismiss something based on basic logic, you don't need math to prove your point.

[wheelierdan]

i have to say this this most awesome, nerdy thread i've ever read, and i mean that in the best way! i love the certainty you have because you're using math and not intangible opinions. The fact that you are outwitting the issue in non-native english just makes it even better.

[michal9o90]

@wheelierdan yeah..... hmmmm.....kinda get.....deja vu.......hearing it again and again LOL

@bchesson on ME wiki is write, that dozen of light years can be did in 1 day.

[bchesson]

I just got off the phone with my brother who is an engineer and he said the problem with figuring out Mass Effect's FTL speeds is there are too many unknowns. For example if you say that the Normandy traveled 12 light years in 24 hours. We have no idea what Normandy's top speed is in this example. Was she booking it at her very top speed or was she cruising at 1/2 or 1/4 of her top speed?

[wheelierdan]

judging by the sheer terror on jokers face? im going with full speed.

[SogaBan]

alexcarter wrote...

SogaBan wrote...

michal9o90 wrote...

SogaBan wrote...

Wave CANNOT travel FTL. Why?

Because all 'wave's are electro-magnetic radiation (except the sound waves and water waves.. lol), so that makes thing a bit possible.

Nevertheless, as the shockwave (or the wave, as you call it) surrounds the Normandy during her escape, probably the ship was coming out of its FTL and that's the reason why it nearly engulfed the Normandy.

However, nice work done there. And well... even then the ending is a shi**y crap!

You  think wrong, Normandy is coming out of FTL BECAUSE this wave/shockwaves catching up with joker, and beings to destroying normandy.

How come? Let's simulate the sequences:
1. Normandy is already on the way tho Charon relay (in FTL)
2. Shepard talks with that Ghost kid and makes decision
3. The Crucible emits energy at the speed of light
4. By that time the Normandy may probably have reached the relay and trying to come out of FTL jump
5. The moment relay catches the Crucible's energy, it starts emitting the energy to all other relays across the galaxy - and Normandy prepares to jump through the relay and 'probably' succeeds.
6. As soon as Normandy comes out from the relay jump (unknown system) the relay network starts bursting and emits shockwave - which chases the Normandy (as shown in the end movie)
7. Because the Normandy had just come out of a relay-jump, Joker was 'probably' preparing to make another FTL jump; BUT unfortunately the shockwave devastates the EEzo core and the thrusters - normandy crash lands on some anonymous planet.

That's what I have figured out - at least the best logical sequence - I have adopted.

Kindly correct me if the sequences need restructuring...

Assuming the Joker's motivation to run away is explained, I think Joker has plenty of time to go to charon. Hear me out: 
In the control ending, there is no beam but only the wave of the energy, the "wave" is the electro-magnetic radiation which shouldn't travel at faster than light. And as for the destroy and synthesis endings, there is a beam, and you SEE it TRAVELING from one point to the relay, which can suggest the possibility that it is not even traveling at the light speed, so yeah, it will take at least 4 hours for the beam or the wave to go to the relay. If Joker dares to use FTL inside the system, he's got time 

Yea.. THAT the explanation of Joker escaping in the first hand is explained! And it's THERE the entire discussion proves moot!

Survival instinct - is a good point BUT 'probably' not applicable for a military personnel. Otherwise, in ME2 joker would have escaped from the collector base without Shepard. Even then, if anyone has read Mass Effect: Revelation novel, it has been clearly written that escaping from a battle without the direct orders - is a quality that doesn't justify a MARINE.

[JPfanner]

The Charon Relay is a primary relay and only has one destination: Arcturus. Arcturus itself has other relays (one obviously being the primary relay pair of Charon). That chokepoint was why they built Arcturus Station there and kept those fleets on standby. Any invaders would need to go through Arcturus to get to Earth. Even the Reapers had to follow that route.

Then the Normandy has quantum entangled communications with at least Hackett. Mistaking the release for some catastrophic event gets a bit much to accept when you can instantly get information about the event regardless of distance. Kind of hard to believe that Hackett or the Alliance wouldn't at least send out something regarding themselves not being vaporized and the reapers being stopped.

[alexcarter]

JPfanner wrote...

The Charon Relay is a primary relay and only has one destination: Arcturus. Arcturus itself has other relays (one obviously being the primary relay pair of Charon). That chokepoint was why they built Arcturus Station there and kept those fleets on standby. Any invaders would need to go through Arcturus to get to Earth. Even the Reapers had to follow that route.

Then the Normandy has quantum entangled communications with at least Hackett. Mistaking the release for some catastrophic event gets a bit much to accept when you can instantly get information about the event regardless of distance. Kind of hard to believe that Hackett or the Alliance wouldn't at least send out something regarding themselves not being vaporized and the reapers being stopped.

fair point however, if they know the reapers have been stopped, mission accomplished, and the citadel also blows up, not a trace of Shep left, then isn't it time to at least to investigate what the hell that beam will do to the charon relay? or in Control ending, after the citadel closes up and leaves, being the valiant soldiers and faithful squaddies as they are, shouldn't they give chase?