319 réponses à ce sujet

[Alamandorious]

Well done!

See Bioware? You made us use.....MATH!

[michal9o90]

Zing Freelancer wrote...

I don't think explain THAT is possible.

Haha I think, sort of things like that come to almost every fan of ME

[Hydralysk]

Well done, interesting read and just proves our argument even more.

Still..... logic < Space Magic

Modifié par Hydralysk, 20 mars 2012 - 11:48 .

[red_llama]

michal9o90 wrote...

Just for curiosity because this gave me no peace. I accurately calculated the FTL SPEED in MASS EFFECT! And Can Joker really escape from wave and get to the new planet?!

In ME FTL can do 12 light years in 24 Hours.

I'm so glad to see I wasn't the only one doing this. XD
Fun facts I came across when doing my calculations last night (that are not quite a repeat of what was already said and support your point):
Closest planet currently assumed to be able to sustain life: about 20 light years away.
Since that is base on current data, the Mass Effect universe could have found closer, but even the closest system is about 4 light years away, so would take 8 hours at max FTL to get there. So he must have taken the relay to make it to any viable life sustaining planet.
Of course, the Charon relay goes to Arcturus, which also has no life sustaining planets, so he would have had to jump several relays. I'm going to hazard a guess that would take time, and since the beam from the crucible must be traveling at at least the max FTL speed of the Normandy to catch up at any point, Joker would only have a few seconds on the other side of the Charon to jump again.
But really he wouldn't be able to make even the first jump as the relay must be given the amount of mass to transit by the ship's pilot before it is moved into the approach corridor. When a relay is activated, it aligns itself with the corresponding relay before propelling the ship across space - my guess is this takes more than a few seconds (info straight from ME), so the beam really should have passed the Normandy way before it reached the relay.
Unless the beam is slower than the Normandy's FTL, then the Normandy should always be able to out run it (until runs out of galaxy or the ship needs to discharge).
Bleh. Big. A**. Plot hole. -.-

[michal9o90]

Hydralysk wrote...

Well done, interesting read and just proves our argument even more.

Still..... logic < Space Magic

Science still can be interesting like magic, but in contrast to space magic science still is LOGICAL!

[LilyasAvalon]

Bioware logic just got slapped with math.

Ah, math, what would we do without you...

...play video games...

And that has failed us, so we shall do math instead.

...Damnit.

Modifié par LilyasAvalon, 20 mars 2012 - 11:54 .

[MetalCargo999]

You are really amazing!

[Trishot]

Your calculations for Joker fleeing are assuming Joker was warned before the event occurs. As seen in Mass Effect 2 FTL drive takes a while to "kick start" if you will, he needs to manually input a destination first. Not to mention the time it takes for his brain to process the information. While your math seems solid (didn't try and calculate it myself) he could never have "outrun" the explosion.

Modifié par Trishot, 21 mars 2012 - 12:04 .

[kyban]

Damn, this is great!

[michal9o90]

red_llama wrote...

michal9o90 wrote...

Just for curiosity because this gave me no peace. I accurately calculated the FTL SPEED in MASS EFFECT! And Can Joker really escape from wave and get to the new planet?!

In ME FTL can do 12 light years in 24 Hours.

I'm so glad to see I wasn't the only one doing this. XD
Fun facts I came across when doing my calculations last night (that are not quite a repeat of what was already said and support your point):
Closest planet currently assumed to be able to sustain life: about 20 light years away.
Since that is base on current data, the Mass Effect universe could have found closer, but even the closest system is about 4 light years away, so would take 8 hours at max FTL to get there. So he must have taken the relay to make it to any viable life sustaining planet.
Of course, the Charon relay goes to Arcturus, which also has no life sustaining planets, so he would have had to jump several relays. I'm going to hazard a guess that would take time, and since the beam from the crucible must be traveling at at least the max FTL speed of the Normandy to catch up at any point, Joker would only have a few seconds on the other side of the Charon to jump again.
But really he wouldn't be able to make even the first jump as the relay must be given the amount of mass to transit by the ship's pilot before it is moved into the approach corridor. When a relay is activated, it aligns itself with the corresponding relay before propelling the ship across space - my guess is this takes more than a few seconds (info straight from ME), so the beam really should have passed the Normandy way before it reached the relay.
Unless the beam is slower than the Normandy's FTL, then the Normandy should always be able to out run it (until runs out of galaxy or the ship needs to discharge).
Bleh. Big. A**. Plot hole. -.-

You forgotten one thing, citadel after wave atack, used in 2 options even BIG SHOOT LASER(sort of) ATACK and it without a single doubt was faster than even ftl or wave from crucible. So even if joker earlier strart to escaping ( what is impossible, because he had to rescue our squad members and HE WOULD NEVER LEFT SHEPARD even EDI said, she would die than let us/joker die, hmm at least she choose joker xD ) than he would have verry short time, to get Charon relay, because first he can't escape battle, because normandy was sword of ataack and main base, and still using FTL in system where are asteroids, gravity from another planet ect. IS IMPOSSIBLE!

BLEEEEEEEHHHH i'm tired of this, and making this whole calculations  bleeeeeeh

WE WANT BETTER ENDING.

Trishot wrote...

Your calculations for Joker fleeing are
assuming Joker was warned before the event occurs. As seen in Mass
Effect 2 FTL drive takes a while to "kick start" if you will, he needs
to manually input a destination first. Not to mention the time it takes
for his brain to process the information. While your math seems solid
(didn't try and calculate it myself) he could never have "outrun" the
explosion.

yeah that's right, and i hope, BIOWARE NOTICE that what i write xD

Modifié par michal9o90, 21 mars 2012 - 12:06 .

[Gallron395]

My rationalization for the Normandy flying off thing, before I gave up and accepted space magic and joker doing a 180 from his character was this. The mass relays open worm holes through space (that is MY personal assumption, as I have not found a better explanation). The image of the normandy escaping looked to me like it was traveling through the wormhole and out the back you could see normal space, as though the wormhole was collapsing. I assumed the hole collapsed, Normandy crashed, etc.

But honestly space magic makes more sense to me now. And indoctrination.

[beyondsolo]

michal9o90 wrote...

*OP snip*

Thank you for posting this. It does seem odd and opens another plot hole the size of Arcturus.

In addition to what you've pointed out, there is also no reason why Joker should be going for the relay in the first place. If we assume that the reason why Joker made the call to leave the Sol system was because he saw the shockwave on the Normandy's sensors, originating from the Citadel's own internal mass relay at the speed visible in the all of the color variants, then his first reaction should have been to engage the ship's FTL. The reasoning behind this is that the shockwave is not travelling at FTL when it emerges from the Citadel (check the videos for proof).

Assuming Joker knows a thing or two about physics, he'd expect that the shockwave cannot travel FTL, unless whatever it consists of enters the mass-free corridor pojected by the mass relays. Entering that corridor with the Normandy would actually make the shockwave catch up with him, not help him escape.

Of course none of this even touches on the discrepancy between observed expansion speeds of the space magic shockwaves. When seen expanding from the Citadel, the rate is observable to the naked eye, meaning substantially below lightspeed. However, when viewed on the galactic scale, the space magic expands at a rate of thousands of lightyears per second.

Whichever is true, Joker cannot know how it looks on the galactic scale because the Normandy's sensors can only observe what is within reasonable time lag of lightspeed (check the Mass Effect Wikia, codex entry on sensors). Therefore he must assume that what he's seeing--the space magic expanding much slower than lightspeed--is the information to base his decision to maneuver on. And that decision cannot involve the mass relay for previously explained reasons.

The Normandy leaving the Sol system makes no sense at all, even if we ignore the fact that the ship couldn't have possibly made it there (as outlined by the OP), even if we ignore the magical transportation of the ground team aboard the ship.

Modifié par beyondsolo, 21 mars 2012 - 12:08 .

[MissMaster_2]

LMAFO! No one at BW is going to be able to answer this.

[michal9o90]

beyondsolo wrote...

michal9o90 wrote...

*OP snip*

Thank you for posting this. It does seem odd and opens another plot hole the size of Arcturus.

In addition to what you've pointed out, there is also no reason why Joker should be going for the relay in the first place. If we assume that the reason why Joker made the call to leave the Sol system was because he saw the shockwave on the Normandy's sensors, originating from the Citadel's own internal mass relay at the speed visible in the all of the color variants, then his first reaction should have been to engage the ship's FTL. The reasoning behind this is that the shockwave is not travelling at FTL when it emerges from the Citadel (check the videos for proof).

Assuming Joker knows a thing or two about physics, he'd expect that the shockwave cannot travel FTL, unless whatever it consists of enters the mass-free corridor pojected by the mass relays. Entering that corridor with the Normandy would actually make the shockwave catch up with him, not help him escape.

Of course none of this even touches on the discrepancy between observed expansion speeds of the space magic shockwaves. When seen expanding from the Citadel, the rate is observable to the naked eye, meaning substantially below lightspeed. However, when viewed on the galactic scale, the space magic expands at a rate of thousands of lightyears per second.

Whichever is true, Joker cannot know how it looks on the galactic scale because the Normandy's sensors can only observe what is within reasonable time lag of lightspeed (check the Mass Effect Wikia, codex entry on sensors). Therefore he must assume that what he's seeing--the space magic expanding much slower than lightspeed--is the information to base his decision to maneuver on. And that decision cannot involve the mass relay for previously explained reasons.

The Normandy leaving the Sol system makes no sense at all, even if we ignore the fact that the ship couldn't have possibly made it there (as outlined by the OP), even if we ignore the magical transportation of the ground team aboard the ship.

But you know, if you look and the last scenes, where relays expoling, wave from this explodes is REALLY FAST, a whole more faster than FTL! And as i mentioned it i think scenes on the earth was in SLOW MOTION! So still i think this space magic wave was faster than FTL, so you know what i want to say ........ still Joker can't reaches new planet.

And back to the question "there is also no reason why Joker should be going for the relay in the first place." i don't see another option, how he can get to new planet, i PROVE IT with my calculation, that Joker can't reaches new planet in that short time, with FTL SPEED!

MissMaster_2 wrote...

LMAFO! No one at BW is going to be able to answer this.

Maybe? But it's worth to try. And if i don't get the answer i won't ever buy a new game from bioware.

Modifié par michal9o90, 21 mars 2012 - 12:20 .

[Kirival]

aight BioWare...we all complained about how this was a plot hole...now a champ has done the math and we know it IS A PLOT HOLE...fix it...please now

[Clayless]

You can't bring this up unless you bring up sound in space.

If you think sound in space is fine, but this isn't, then you're just whining at Bioware for any dreadful reason you could think. It's Sci-Fi people, not Sci-Fact.

[red_llama]

michal9o90 wrote...

red_llama wrote...

But really he wouldn't be able to make even the first jump as the relay must be given the amount of mass to transit by the ship's pilot before it is moved into the approach corridor. When a relay is activated, it aligns itself with the corresponding relay before propelling the ship across space - my guess is this takes more than a few seconds (info straight from ME), so the beam really should have passed the Normandy way before it reached the Charcon relay.
Unless the beam is slower than the Normandy's FTL, then the Normandy should always be able to out run it (until runs out of galaxy or the ship needs to discharge).
Bleh. Big. A**. Plot hole. -.-

You forgotten one thing, citadel after wave atack, used in 2 options even BIG SHOOT LASER(sort of) ATACK and it without a single doubt was faster than even ftl or wave from crucible. So even if joker earlier strart to escaping ( what is impossible, because he had to rescue our squad members and HE WOULD NEVER LEFT SHEPARD even EDI said, she would die than let us/joker die, hmm at least she choose joker xD ) than he would have verry short time, to get Charon relay, because first he can't escape battle, because normandy was sword of ataack and main base, and still using FTL in system where are asteroids, gravity from another planet ect. IS IMPOSSIBLE!

BLEEEEEEEHHHH i'm tired of this, and making this whole calculations  bleeeeeeh

WE WANT BETTER ENDING.

I should have been clearer. You are hands down, 100% right - the Normandy would never have been able to make it. I was just agreeing and adding more evidence. Poorly, apparently.
My Bad. You're awesome for posting your calculations in the first place - sorry to make you have to rejustify unnecessarily.

[michal9o90]

@red_llama don't worry maybe i didn't clearly understand you, i'm still learning english xD. Besides nothing wrong happen XD

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

You can't bring this up unless you bring up sound in space.

If
you think sound in space is fine, but this isn't, then you're just
whining at Bioware for any dreadful reason you could think. It's Sci-Fi
people, not Sci-Fact.

And because of that, we have to agree with it, what bioware doing and make us an idiot? What? we are didn't worth to treat us like they should be?

hmmmmmm i thnnk NO, and i did this Topic, for mention, that we are not stupid, and we want logical ending at least close to logical.

Modifié par michal9o90, 21 mars 2012 - 12:27 .

[Trishot]

But you know, if you look and the last scenes, where relays expoling, wave from this explodes is REALLY FAST, a whole more faster than FTL! And as i mentioned it i think scenes on the earth was in SLOW MOTION! So still i think this space magic wave was faster than FTL, so you know what i want to say ........ still Joker can't reaches new planet.

And back to the question "there is also no reason why Joker should be going for the relay in the first place." i don't see another option, how he can get to new planet, i PROVE IT with my calculation, that Joker can't reaches new planet in that short time, with FTL SPEED!

This is a above is a quote, I am unsure how to remove the other quotes so I accidently deleted all the "quote" command lines.

Anyway, I think you are starting to look a little too much into this, yes the explosion on the galaxy map was way faster then Joker could have flown. However, it would barely register as an explosion had they maintained the same speed of expansion. You would have to wait hours to even try and see it move slightly, that makes for a boring cutscene

[htewing]

*blink. blink*
*slowclap of confusion*
*bows*

Yeah. I don't get maths. But this makes sense . . .

[beyondsolo]

michal9o90 wrote...

beyondsolo wrote...

michal9o90 wrote...

*OP snip*

*snip*
.

But you know, if you look and the last scenes, where relays expoling, wave from this explodes is REALLY FAST, a whole more faster than FTL! And as i mentioned it i think scenes on the earth was in SLOW MOTION! So still i think this space magic wave was faster than FTL, so you know what i want to say ........ still Joker can't reaches new planet.

And back to the question "there is also no reason why Joker should be going for the relay in the first place." i don't see another option, how he can get to new planet, i PROVE IT with my calculation, that Joker can't reaches new planet in that short time, with FTL SPEED!

I think there has been a misunderstanding. I absolutely agree with you.  The planet the Normandy lands on is not in the Sol system. To have reached it within a reasonable amount of time Joker would have had to take the Normandy to the Charon relay--which you proved cannot have happend.

I just wanted to point out that in regards to the data available to Joker he wouldn't even have gone for the relay but tried to escape at regular FTL, at least to dodge the shockwave. Which is yet another problem because up close the shockwave expands spherically, but on the galaxy map it looks like discs emerging from the relays.

There are too many plotholes. The stuff we are shown in the ending simply doesn't fit together.

Modifié par beyondsolo, 21 mars 2012 - 12:26 .

[count_4]

alexcarter wrote...
assuming the wave travels in normal light speed, it would take about 4 hours to reach charon relay, but this doesn't seem to be the case as evidenced by its galactic propagation

You are indeed right. My numbers were completely off there. Temporary retardation.
Besides the pulse had to be propagated to the Charon relay via Mass Effect transit anyway. So it either took 5+ seconds for the pulse to be sent out, leaving Joker enough time to reach the relay or the wave was faster than light and caught the Normandy in FTL. The latter still being against physical laws.

Modifié par count_4, 21 mars 2012 - 12:29 .

[michal9o90]

Trishot wrote...

Anyway, I think you are starting to look a little too much into this, yes the explosion on the galaxy map was way faster then Joker could have flown. However, it would barely register as an explosion had they maintained the same speed of expansion. You would have to wait hours to even try and see it move slightly, that makes for a boring cutscene

I agree that is why i want answers from bioware.

[Dockerr]

relevant

[alexcarter]

Gallron395 wrote...

My rationalization for the Normandy flying off thing, before I gave up and accepted space magic and joker doing a 180 from his character was this. The mass relays open worm holes through space (that is MY personal assumption, as I have not found a better explanation). The image of the normandy escaping looked to me like it was traveling through the wormhole and out the back you could see normal space, as though the wormhole was collapsing. I assumed the hole collapsed, Normandy crashed, etc.

But honestly space magic makes more sense to me now. And indoctrination.

unless, the wave emanating from citadel is travelling at sub-luminal speed, and Normandy somehow manages to be faster than that, then Joker can outrun the wave. 
though this still leaves the case inside the mass effect tunnel once entering the relay. not sure if one can still maintain close to light speed inside the tunnel, if yes, then maybe, just maybe, Joker can still keep some distance, though not for long, as the wave seems to be speeding up, even inside the tunnel. 
and then on the galactic map, omg, the waves even seem to be traveling at thousands of light years per second, I mean, really? 
here the artistic licence is really taken too far by bioware...