319 réponses à ce sujet

[jonDawe]

I'm not sure if standard newtonian/SUVAT equations are applicable to the ending.

The Normandy techniquelly (if it has is going 12c) will have pretty much infinite mass, meaning that it is very hard to understand how it will be travelling in space, due to the huge bending of space time (this is the only way that it could be moving faster then the speed of light).

The fact that it is moving this fast, will also mean that techniquelly it would be impossible under standard physics for the explosion wave to be even catching the ship (unless some how it's bending space aswell!?!?!?!?)and travelling faster then the speed of light

The real questions are:

How is the Explosion not following standard physics ---> this may imply that the nomandy doesn't actually escape at the speed of light.

If the ships can travel at the speed of light... WHY ARENT THEY USED AS WEAPONS??!? I mean they would have infinite mass etc, and would be capable of easily destroying any fleet, by simply flying into other ships?

[jumpingkaede]

alexcarter wrote...

On its own, it is good enough reason to gtfo, think about it this way: this is probably a supernova in the making, after which the whole sol system is gonna be wiped clean, not even a trace of Shep is to be recovered, why would you still stick out? 
I can be even more generous, Joker can even wait till intel coming in that the reapers are down or flying away, depending on the ending of your choice, mission accomplished, why are you still staying, what with the risk of being fried alive? 

Lots of speculation?  lol. 

Why would Joker suspect that it was probably a "supernova in the making"?  Especially since (a) no one knew what the Crucible would do and ( as it turns out it wasn't a supernova in the making.  Maybe we're just talking in circles.  Which of the following moments below did Joker, in your line of speculation, decide to "gtfo"?

(Given in chronological order)

• Shepard gets hit by the blast.
• Hackett tells Shepard via comm that the Crucible isn't working and Shepard has to do something on his end.
• The Citadel starts to glow (1st instance).
• The "blast" orbs from the Citadel, taking down Reapers (or controlling the Reapers) while leaving ALL other ships in the fleet AND the soldiers intact and completely fine.
• The Citadel starts to glow again (2nd instance).
• The beam of light shoots out from the Citadel toward the Sol Relay.
• The Citadel itself explodes.

Also I don't see why there is a risk of being fried alive.  There's certainly no evidence that such a risk was present in the minds of ANYONE at the scene.  And as you can clearly tell from the cutscenes, as bad as they are, no one WAS fried alive.

So Joker would have had to thought to himself, "Whoa man, WHAT IF I GET FRIED ALIVE despite there being no evidene or indication that it would happen?  F- this.  I'm outta here peace!"

?

Anyway, even if we agree that Joker did gtfo I don't think we can agree that he had a good reason to do so.  Much less a reason consistent with all his previous actions in the ME trilogy.

Modifié par jumpingkaede, 21 mars 2012 - 06:23 .

[Menalaos1971]

I'm definitely of the opinion that the "escape" was NOT Joker jumping the Normandy through the Charon relay before the Space Magic hit it and destroyed it. In the scene it shows the beam hitting the relay, being passed on, and then exploding, cutting out to the galaxy and passing on more and more, but it isn't until 15 seconds AFTER the Charon relay exploded that you see Joker piloting the Normady in FTL.

Now, as I hope has been said in here already, the Normandy is perfectly capable of FTL travel with its own Mass Effect core and thrusters. So what we're seeing is Joker fleeing the blast wave from the Charon Relay by taking the Normandy into FTL using its own systems.

As for the math on how far it could travel... Yes I agree its a little wonky. We don't know how long he was flying in FTL, or the speed of the blast wave, though it was obviously faster than light.

Where ever the Normandy ended up, it would have to be in a solar system very close to Earth, which begs the question why it wasn't already explored. If a garden-world moon was that close to Earth we would have heavily settled it already.

[michal9o90]

One more thing i want to say to all gamers who are telling me, i can't base on science in game.

What mean SCIENCE-FICTION?

Science= Science and add some Fiction to this Science NOT MAGIC!!

Science can't deny basic assumptions of physics and mathematics in particular. This does not mean that it can not go on, but can not deny the fundamentals.

Crossing the boundaries of light? Why not? In even our time physics saying that is possible but in other way, not using speed, but using curvature of space and time. Long time ago we can't believe we can cross over the speed of Sound.

[Menalaos1971]

jonDawe wrote...

I'm not sure if standard newtonian/SUVAT equations are applicable to the ending.

The Normandy techniquelly (if it has is going 12c) will have pretty much infinite mass, meaning that it is very hard to understand how it will be travelling in space, due to the huge bending of space time (this is the only way that it could be moving faster then the speed of light).

The fact that it is moving this fast, will also mean that techniquelly it would be impossible under standard physics for the explosion wave to be even catching the ship (unless some how it's bending space aswell!?!?!?!?)and travelling faster then the speed of light

The real questions are:

How is the Explosion not following standard physics ---> this may imply that the nomandy doesn't actually escape at the speed of light.

If the ships can travel at the speed of light... WHY ARENT THEY USED AS WEAPONS??!? I mean they would have infinite mass etc, and would be capable of easily destroying any fleet, by simply flying into other ships?

Have you never read any of the Journal Entries in the game.  Ever?  Mass Effect Field.  They overcome the infinite mass problem by using an Element Zero core to literally lower the mass of everything inside the field, thus increasing the speed of light.  Within the field light speed is raised significantly.

[B1scuits]

The fact that English isn't your native just makes this better.
Congrats, sir.

[JPfanner]

Relay transit is instant.
"Mass Relays are mass transit devices scattered throughout the galaxy, usually located within star systems. They form an enormous network allowing interstellar travel. Hailed as one of the greatest achievements of the extinct Protheans, a mass relay can transport starships instantaneously to another relay within the network, allowing for journeys that would otherwise take years or even decades with only FTL drives.

[michal9o90]

JPfanner wrote...

alexcarter wrote...

JPfanner wrote...

So the energy beam from the Citadel can easily reach the Charon Relay instantly, because the Citadel itself is a mass relay and capable of opening a mass effect corridor to the Charon Relay for that transmission.

if it is instant, why can you SEE the beam RUNNING from one point to charon relay and THEN activating it? by definition, if something is faster than light, you can't see it coming and exerting its influence thereafter, it has to be BEFORE you see it. Not to mention on the galactic perspective, they are running at great speed (great indeed, thousands of light years per second, which still baffles me), but still not instant

Because you're comparing cinematics to codex entries.  Cinematics are designed to be visually appealing.  Like the space battle scenes are cool looking, but nowhere representative of what space combat would be like, even considering the sci-fi elements.

That galactic map sequence with the beam running between relays and the expanding circles on the relays is just a representation of what is happening conveyed in a cinematic style.  It is to show something nifty to the player and the player alone.  It isn't from any kind of in-universe perspective.

yeah that is right, and im trying to base on fact, like wave catch up with escaping joker, like what is in all Lexicon, Mass effect wiki ect.

[jonDawe]

Menalaos1971 wrote...


Have you never read any of the Journal Entries in the game.  Ever?  Mass Effect Field.  They overcome the infinite mass problem by using an Element Zero core to literally lower the mass of everything inside the field, thus increasing the speed of light.  Within the field light speed is raised significantly.

Ahh, didn't realise, my bad.


It doesn't explain how an explosion can travel faster then the speed of light though, and also the strong relativity problems of travelling at these speeds.

[jumpingkaede]

Menalaos1971 wrote...

I'm definitely of the opinion that the "escape" was NOT Joker jumping the Normandy through the Charon relay before the Space Magic hit it and destroyed it. In the scene it shows the beam hitting the relay, being passed on, and then exploding, cutting out to the galaxy and passing on more and more, but it isn't until 15 seconds AFTER the Charon relay exploded that you see Joker piloting the Normady in FTL.

Now, as I hope has been said in here already, the Normandy is perfectly capable of FTL travel with its own Mass Effect core and thrusters. So what we're seeing is Joker fleeing the blast wave from the Charon Relay by taking the Normandy into FTL using its own systems.

Are we distinguishing "blast wave" from "explosion"?   Since the "blast wave" that is following the Normandy is the color of the original "blast/shot" from the Citadel.

So you're speculating -- I hate that it has negative connotations, btw -- that the Normandy was either near the Charon Relay or that the blast from the Charon Relay basically expanded to fill the entire star system?

It's possible I suppose.  The cutscene starts out with the "blast" being pretty focused in the corridor but it does expand.
Joker is definitely fleeing something though, we are agreed? 

It's so stupid that he's fleeing at all.  I guess he's fleeing because he knows the blast will destroy the Normandy but he has no reason to know or suspect that. 

EVEN IF he got the call from the fleet near Earth  who got hit by the "blast" FIRST (and he was at the Charon Relay for some reason to begin with)... what would they say?

"omg a huge blast just came out from the Citadel and panic time!!  oh wait we're fine nevermind false alarm?"

Sadly, that's probably the explanation that paints Joker in the last atrocious light... or:

"omg a huge blast just came from the Citadel and it hit all of our ships arrrggghhh!!!"

And the ending is even grimmer than we originally thought as every ship in space gets destroyed.  (Except for the Normandy since it's probably the fastest ship we have.)

[Menalaos1971]

jumpingkaede, I don't think he's fleeing the energy from the Citadel, but from the Charon Relay. The Arrival Alpha Relay DLC basically showed that a Relay Explosion is like a super nova and will wipe out an entire solar system, so yes the blast wave from the Charon relay exploding would reach Earth and destroy it.

So, if the relay explosion, after passing on the Space Magic, was a Alpha Relay nova sized blast, then that would justify Joker fleeing, but would also imply the total destruction of the Earth, the Fleet, and most of the other populated worlds in the galaxy.

Pretty grim ending, and is founded in established lore. This is why we needed an Epilogue to explain all of this stuff.

[alexcarter]

JPfanner wrote...

alexcarter wrote...

JPfanner wrote...

So the energy beam from the Citadel can easily reach the Charon Relay instantly, because the Citadel itself is a mass relay and capable of opening a mass effect corridor to the Charon Relay for that transmission.

if it is instant, why can you SEE the beam RUNNING from one point to charon relay and THEN activating it? by definition, if something is faster than light, you can't see it coming and exerting its influence thereafter, it has to be BEFORE you see it. Not to mention on the galactic perspective, they are running at great speed (great indeed, thousands of light years per second, which still baffles me), but still not instant

Because you're comparing cinematics to codex entries.  Cinematics are designed to be visually appealing.  Like the space battle scenes are cool looking, but nowhere representative of what space combat would be like, even considering the sci-fi elements.

That galactic map sequence with the beam running between relays and the expanding circles on the relays is just a representation of what is happening conveyed in a cinematic style.  It is to show something nifty to the player and the player alone.  It isn't from any kind of in-universe perspective.

So... in the case of Control ending, where there is no beam, according to you, the energy wave will just propagate slowly (yeah, at the speed of light) to charon relay, and maybe I should thank you on Joker's behalf that there is no instant beam to off him almost instantly? And thank god I chose Control ending... 
by the way, I would really like to see a quote about the instantness of the mass relay in the codex, please. 

[michal9o90]

JPfanner wrote...

Relay transit is instant.
"Mass Relays are mass transit devices scattered throughout the galaxy, usually located within star systems. They form an enormous network allowing interstellar travel. Hailed as one of the greatest achievements of the extinct Protheans, a mass relay can transport starships instantaneously to another relay within the network, allowing for journeys that would otherwise take years or even decades with only FTL drives.

I will add this to the main post if you has not problem with it.

[JPfanner]

michal9o90 wrote...

JPfanner wrote...

Relay transit is instant.
"Mass Relays are mass transit devices scattered throughout the galaxy, usually located within star systems. They form an enormous network allowing interstellar travel. Hailed as one of the greatest achievements of the extinct Protheans, a mass relay can transport starships instantaneously to another relay within the network, allowing for journeys that would otherwise take years or even decades with only FTL drives.

I will add this to the main post if you has not problem with it.

I was just quoting from the Mass Effect wiki site which has all the codex entries.

masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Mass_relay

[alexcarter]

michal9o90 wrote...

One more thing i want to say to all gamers who are telling me, i can't base on science in game.

What mean SCIENCE-FICTION?

Science= Science and add some Fiction to this Science NOT MAGIC!!

Science can't deny basic assumptions of physics and mathematics in particular. This does not mean that it can not go on, but can not deny the fundamentals.

Crossing the boundaries of light? Why not? In even our time physics saying that is possible but in other way, not using speed, but using curvature of space and time. Long time ago we can't believe we can cross over the speed of Sound.

hmm, my friend, FTL is exactly violating one of the most basic assumptions of modern physics, so following your logic, doing FTL is already   

"
Crossing the boundaries of light? Why not? "... Sigh... a bunch of nerd-headed scientist from CERN thought they had this breakthrough, turned out it was just a loose cable acting up on them, hope you don't make the same or similar mistake again

[michal9o90]

For Curiosity

http://www.gizmodo.c...hip-looks-like/

http://video.google....531867559286440

Quite similar to what we see in ME. Space ship is closed in some bubble, and we changing around spacetime

Modifié par michal9o90, 21 mars 2012 - 07:15 .

[alexcarter]

jumpingkaede wrote...

alexcarter wrote...

On its own, it is good enough reason to gtfo, think about it this way: this is probably a supernova in the making, after which the whole sol system is gonna be wiped clean, not even a trace of Shep is to be recovered, why would you still stick out? 
I can be even more generous, Joker can even wait till intel coming in that the reapers are down or flying away, depending on the ending of your choice, mission accomplished, why are you still staying, what with the risk of being fried alive? 

Lots of speculation?  lol. 

Why would Joker suspect that it was probably a "supernova in the making"?  Especially since (a) no one knew what the Crucible would do and ( as it turns out it wasn't a supernova in the making.  Maybe we're just talking in circles.  Which of the following moments below did Joker, in your line of speculation, decide to "gtfo"?

(Given in chronological order)

• Shepard gets hit by the blast.
• Hackett tells Shepard via comm that the Crucible isn't working and Shepard has to do something on his end.
• The Citadel starts to glow (1st instance).
• The "blast" orbs from the Citadel, taking down Reapers (or controlling the Reapers) while leaving ALL other ships in the fleet AND the soldiers intact and completely fine.
• The Citadel starts to glow again (2nd instance).
• The beam of light shoots out from the Citadel toward the Sol Relay.
• The Citadel itself explodes. 

Also I don't see why there is a risk of being fried alive.  There's certainly no evidence that such a risk was present in the minds of ANYONE at the scene.  And as you can clearly tell from the cutscenes, as bad as they are, no one WAS fried alive.

So Joker would have had to thought to himself, "Whoa man, WHAT IF I GET FRIED ALIVE despite there being no evidene or indication that it would happen?  F- this.  I'm outta here peace!"

?

Anyway, even if we agree that Joker did gtfo I don't think we can agree that he had a good reason to do so.  Much less a reason consistent with all his previous actions in the ME trilogy.

hmm, I guess you haven't played the dlc "The Arrival"? In which they blew up a mass relay, and the energy released was on the scale of a supernova, offing some 300000+ batarians. Now, I'm  not saying the mass relay explosion caused by the citadel beam is indeed the same thing,  but at that time,  people (Joker and other pilots) don't know, and with that only precedence, you think they would like to stay and find out?  

as for timing, I think as soon as the energy "orb" sents out, he could've already had made the decision to gtfo, after all, citadel is a mass relay, with this strange energy readings coming up, doesn't it mean something really odd is gonna happen? But maybe he can wait till he sees the beams out towards the charon relay, then he can be sure something real bad is gonna happen to the relays. including the one that can get him out of the range of the supernova, charon relay... 

[JPfanner]

alexcarter wrote...
So... in the case of Control ending, where there is no beam, according to you, the energy wave will just propagate slowly (yeah, at the speed of light) to charon relay, and maybe I should thank you on Joker's behalf that there is no instant beam to off him almost instantly? And thank god I chose Control ending... 
by the way, I would really like to see a quote about the instantness of the mass relay in the codex, please. 

I don't know about the specifics of Control offhand.  Isn't there still a beam to the Charon Relay, people were just arguing that it doesn't actually show the relay blow up like in Destroy and Synthesis?

I don't really have any idea what the speed of the wave is because we only ever see it in cinematics.  The wave in London is moving at one speed, across Earth itself at another, on that galactic map insanely fast, and chasing down the Normandy (yet still visible).  I can't make any sense from that, except it "looked cool" in each instance.

The beam to the Charon Relay CAN be instant based on codex entries.  Because the Citadel is a relay and relay transit is instant.  And energy can be transmitted like mass through those mass effect corridors.  I can't prove that it was transmitted instantly, because all we've got are cinematics which are LIKE what happened but made to be cooler looking.

I know the wiki page I linked to states that it is instant and I know for certain the ME1 codex entry also states instant (actually had that running in the background and checked).

[Wowlock]

Bioware. You just got SCIENCE'D !

Modifié par Wowlock, 21 mars 2012 - 07:12 .

[michal9o90]

JPfanner wrote...

alexcarter wrote...
So... in the case of Control ending, where there is no beam, according to you, the energy wave will just propagate slowly (yeah, at the speed of light) to charon relay, and maybe I should thank you on Joker's behalf that there is no instant beam to off him almost instantly? And thank god I chose Control ending... 
by the way, I would really like to see a quote about the instantness of the mass relay in the codex, please. 

I don't know about the specifics of Control offhand.  Isn't there still a beam to the Charon Relay, people were just arguing that it doesn't actually show the relay blow up like in Destroy and Synthesis?

I don't really have any idea what the speed of the wave is because we only ever see it in cinematics.  The wave in London is moving at one speed, across Earth itself at another, on that galactic map insanely fast, and chasing down the Normandy (yet still visible).  I can't make any sense from that, except it "looked cool" in each instance.

The beam to the Charon Relay CAN be instant based on codex entries.  Because the Citadel is a relay and relay transit is instant.  And energy can be transmitted like mass through those mass effect corridors.  I can't prove that it was transmitted instantly, because all we've got are cinematics which are LIKE what happened but made to be cooler looking.

I know the wiki page I linked to states that it is instant and I know for certain the ME1 codex entry also states instant (actually had that running in the background and checked).

Yeah so in two options green and red, there is no option, that joker can escape using Charon Relay, because citadel in a few moment is start to shoot beam to the charon relay.

[alexcarter]

michal9o90 wrote...

For Curiosity

http://www.gizmodo.c...hip-looks-like/

http://video.google....531867559286440

Quite similar to what we see in ME. Space ship is closed in some bubble, and we changing around spacetime

believe me, I would pay with my life to even just see it in real, but come on, high dimensional quantum field theory, really? And, modifying local cosmological constant?  that's  to the order of 10

[michal9o90]

It's not problem to try manipulate spacetime, we need only enough energy for it.

But problem is how to avoid making a lot troubles effects like creating black hole xD

But that was only for curiosity

Modifié par michal9o90, 21 mars 2012 - 07:28 .

[alexcarter]

JPfanner wrote...

alexcarter wrote...
So... in the case of Control ending, where there is no beam, according to you, the energy wave will just propagate slowly (yeah, at the speed of light) to charon relay, and maybe I should thank you on Joker's behalf that there is no instant beam to off him almost instantly? And thank god I chose Control ending... 
by the way, I would really like to see a quote about the instantness of the mass relay in the codex, please. 

I don't know about the specifics of Control offhand.  Isn't there still a beam to the Charon Relay, people were just arguing that it doesn't actually show the relay blow up like in Destroy and Synthesis?

I don't really have any idea what the speed of the wave is because we only ever see it in cinematics.  The wave in London is moving at one speed, across Earth itself at another, on that galactic map insanely fast, and chasing down the Normandy (yet still visible).  I can't make any sense from that, except it "looked cool" in each instance.

The beam to the Charon Relay CAN be instant based on codex entries.  Because the Citadel is a relay and relay transit is instant.  And energy can be transmitted like mass through those mass effect corridors.  I can't prove that it was transmitted instantly, because all we've got are cinematics which are LIKE what happened but made to be cooler looking.

I know the wiki page I linked to states that it is instant and I know for certain the ME1 codex entry also states instant (actually had that running in the background and checked).

just checked again, nope, pretty sure there is no beam in the Control case, so /relieved  I chose the Control ending haha 

...just kidding... but I agree with you, the cinematics are just there to make it look cool, now, doesn't this kinda invalidate all the rage of you and me about how it doesn't "make sense"? 

[alexcarter]

OT:

michal9o90 wrote...

It's not problem to try manipulate spacetime, we need only enough energy for it.

But problem is how to avoid making a lot troubles effects like creating black hole xD

But that was only for curiosity

trust me, when you have high enough energy to manipulate the cosmological constant, creating black holes is really just one of the minor concerns xD 

[jumpingkaede]

Menalaos1971 wrote...

jumpingkaede, I don't think he's fleeing the energy from the Citadel, but from the Charon Relay. The Arrival Alpha Relay DLC basically showed that a Relay Explosion is like a super nova and will wipe out an entire solar system, so yes the blast wave from the Charon relay exploding would reach Earth and destroy it.

That's why I asked if you were distinguishing between the "energy from the Citadel" and the "Relay explosion".  A relay exploding is definitely a supernova but the blast from the Citadel is... less clear.  Ending apologists are saying that there's no supernova but that raises the question of why the Normandy is running and why the Normandy is destroyed.

Menalaos1971 wrote...

So, if the relay explosion, after passing on the Space Magic, was a Alpha Relay nova sized blast, then that would justify Joker fleeing, but would also imply the total destruction of the Earth, the Fleet, and most of the other populated worlds in the galaxy.

Pretty grim ending, and is founded in established lore. This is why we needed an Epilogue to explain all of this stuff.

Even if it's not a supernova per se, it may as well have been.  In that sense, the Crucible in 2 out of 3 endings is no different than simply detonating a ridiculously large bomb over Earth.

If anything, the Crucible is probably more devastating and less effective.