80 réponses à ce sujet

[JKoopman]

This is something that's bugged me for quite a while in RPGs like Dragon Age, Mass Effect and Fallout that offer you the "choice" of talking your way out of conflicts. Let's say your party encounters a band of brigands on the road who won't let you pass. There are two basic ways of solving this dilema:

Option 1: Build a character with high combat attributes and skills and simply cut your way through the bandits, earning EXP from each kill and collecting loot from their bodies.

Option 2: Build a character with high cunning and spend many points in persuasion skills and talk/intimidate the bandits into letting you pass peacfully, earning you no EXP and no loot.

In effect, you're gimping your characters' combat abilities with the end result being that you... gimp your character further by missing out on experience and items. This is especially frustrating in several cases (which I won't go into because they contain spoilers) where choosing to persuade/intimidate your way through an encounter means you miss out on rare, one-of-a-kind weapons or armor sets. This makes it seem almost as if you're doing yourself a disservice by choosing to develop your persuavive skills, as you'd be better off putting those points into combat abilities and simply bashing your way through every enemy encounter.

While I'm not certain how to go about remedying the loot issue (perhaps have NPCs which are successfully persuaded/intimidated give the player some other rare item only attainable by that method?), but the issue of EXP could easily be solved by making such successful encounters reward the player with equivalent EXP as you would've gained by defeating them in combat. After all, aren't you successfully passing the challenge laid before you in both situations? The fact that you used your tongue instead of a sword is no less valid a solution, and it should be rewarded equally.

[DaeFaron]

Ah, there is a unique sword in redcliffe that you can only get with high persuasion. So sometimes you gain, sometimes you lose.

[KirbySkywalker]

yeah i have always wondered this myself.

[Godeshus]

JKoopman wrote...

This is something that's bugged me for quite a while in RPGs like Dragon Age, Mass Effect and Fallout that offer you the "choice" of talking your way out of conflicts. Let's say your party encounters a band of brigands on the road who won't let you pass. There are two basic ways of solving this dilema:

Option 1: Build a character with high combat attributes and skills and simply cut your way through the bandits, earning EXP from each kill and collecting loot from their bodies.

Option 2: Build a character with high cunning and spend many points in persuasion skills and talk/intimidate the bandits into letting you pass peacfully, earning you no EXP and no loot.

In effect, you're gimping your characters' combat abilities with the end result being that you... gimp your character further by missing out on experience and items. This is especially frustrating in several cases (which I won't go into because they contain spoilers) where choosing to persuade/intimidate your way through an encounter means you miss out on rare, one-of-a-kind weapons or armor sets. This makes it seem almost as if you're doing yourself a disservice by choosing to develop your persuavive skills, as you'd be better off putting those points into combat abilities and simply bashing your way through every enemy encounter.

While I'm not certain how to go about remedying the loot issue (perhaps have NPCs which are successfully persuaded/intimidated give the player some other rare item only attainable by that method?), but the issue of EXP could easily be solved by making such successful encounters reward the player with equivalent EXP as you would've gained by defeating them in combat. After all, aren't you successfully passing the challenge laid before you in both situations? The fact that you used your tongue instead of a sword is no less valid a solution, and it should be rewarded equally.

Roll playing game. You make it up elsewhere.

Warrior can`t get everything in the game by killing everyone.

Rogue can`t get everything in the game by smoothtalking.

Mage, well, the mage should get whatever he asks for. And be quick about it.

[Maria Caliban]

It's something of an problem in all RPGs where persuade lets you avoid combat, especially when persuading is tied to certain ethical alignments (Mass Effect was horrible with this).

Viewpoint 1: You've avoided combat. Why should you get the XP and loot that combat brings when you don't have to go through the difficulty of the combat itself? RPGs never reward you for avoiding content and combat is 80% of the content. In this view, persuade is the easy but less rewarding path the player chooses.

Viewpoint 2: It's a role-playing game. Unless there's a logical reason why a certain action would keep something from you (And as XP doesn’t exist in the game world, there’s no reason your character would know they’re giving it up), the game should not reward an aggressive, violent PC over a persuasive, non-violent one.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 30 novembre 2009 - 07:27 .

[kelsjet]

While it is totally intended for you to be able to talk your way out of certain situations, you all must realize that in DA:O (as well as all the other RPGs you mentioned) have combat as the central mechanic of the game.

The 'slick tongue' is meant to be just one aspect of a character, not the core of the character itself (as a side note, if it was, the RPGs in question would have classes such as "The Humorist", "The Philosopher" or "The Politician" instead of things like "The Warrior" "The Mage" or "The Rogue").

In simple terms, these RPGs are focused around combat, not conversations. While talking does exist, it is not the main focus and serves as just another attribute of a combat character.

Hence, you are rewarded mostly for your combat accomplishments. Remember, no matter how good your tongue is, at some point or another in a Bioware RPG you are gonna have to get down to business and fight. That is the reality of the situation.

[Seifz]

Don't some persuade options grant the party XP, just like turning in a quest would?

[Fredericol]

Uhm... Fallout 3 you generally get a lot of exp for talking yourself out of situations... sometimes even more than you'd have gotten fighting...

Least I think so... its been a while

Modifié par Fredericol, 30 novembre 2009 - 07:30 .

[DaeFaron]

In Mass Effect you could level up just by talking to your people on the ship.

[kelsjet]

Fredericol wrote...

Uhm... Fallout 3 you generally get a lot of exp for talking yourself out of situations... sometimes even more than you'd have gotten fighting...

Least I think so... its been a while

I am certain no one stated that you cannot gain rewards (be it XP or loots) from talking. What we are saying is that when we chart out the total amount of 'reward' gained from combat and place it against the total amount of 'reward' gained from talking, the talking would get dwarfed by the combat. This is the case in mostly all RPGs to date. Including Fallout 3.

What I was explaining, is why this is the case. Nothing more.

[Zibon]

Yea, Vampire: Bloodlines rewarded you for getting past encounters no matter how you did so (and individual enemies did not give experience.) Sometimes you would get a little extra xp if you did something exceptional like sneaking through an entire area unnoticed.



Material rewards should be balanced by having an equal or greater (since it takes more commitment) "value" of items that can only be obtained via persuasion throughout the entire game.

[DaeFaron]

I'm curious if Dragon Age has the same feature Mass Effect did, which you gained XP from conversations and doing all the options (Like asking about how something works, then how this works)

[menasure]

the effect is not as dramatic as you think. i have full coercion skills in my second run, along with more non combat skills like stealth and such than combat skills on my rogue currently.
this game is build up to give you parts of a puzzle. what coercion often does is give you more pieces of the same puzzle or provide alternative solutions to complete it.
however the main campaign is still the main campaign and it is impossible to talk your way out of main fights, what you get then can just be a fight with some other side instead because the options presented in this game are hard options which often just come down to either you support this side or that side, with coercion being more a tool to discover more about the background stories of a particular side or the intrigue involved in the whole situation.

yes you might loose some exp sometimes but i have the impression that this skill was implemented by the developers with enough consideration about the effects and from a roleplaying point of view all you do is unlock some of the hidden roles while you still always have the option to not do side quests with or without coercion if you simply refuse to help an npc for example. sometimes it just unlocks info (and a chance for additional exp) which you would miss without the skill so it's not like you are going to loose x number of levels automatically just because you are chosing the persuasion options. your gameplay might change a bit but you will still have to fight.

Modifié par menasure, 30 novembre 2009 - 07:40 .

[Godeshus]

You don't get fit from TALKING about working out. You may, however, be able to convince people that you will be going to the gym...any day now...DAMN YOU DRAGON AGE!!!

Modifié par Godeshus, 30 novembre 2009 - 07:40 .

[Maria Caliban]

Zibon wrote...

Yea, Vampire: Bloodlines rewarded you for getting past encounters no matter how you did so (and individual enemies did not give experience.) Sometimes you would get a little extra xp if you did something exceptional like sneaking through an entire area unnoticed.

I've often advocated only tying XP to completing parts of a quest instead of killing stuff. That way it doesn't matter if you got through via killing stuff, sneaking, or smooth talking, you still get the XP.

Material rewards should be balanced by having an equal or greater (since it takes more commitment) "value" of items that can only be obtained via persuasion throughout the entire game.

To some extent, Dragon Age does this. Some rewards are gotten through persuading (the green sword) while others through combat (the summer sword).

DaeFaron wrote...

I'm curious if Dragon Age has the same feature Mass Effect did, which you gained XP from conversations and doing all the options (Like asking about how something works, then how this works)

You get XP from codex entries, some of which are only from conversations.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 30 novembre 2009 - 07:43 .

[Zibon]

Oh, and you should also look at what experience represents. It's learning to use your abilities better and improving them. Since you can spend experience towards improving your persuasive abilities, logically you should also gain experience for using (and thus practicing) those same abilities.

Modifié par Zibon, 30 novembre 2009 - 07:45 .

[Alistair Crowley]

I find that some methods would be good that I could borrow from pen-and-paper RPG's.



Don't reward exp kill-by-kill for most encounters (fights in this case), instead reward only defeating the encounter in any way possible (including non-violent options).



Let persuasion reduce the opposing threat in some cases. You might intimidate or persuade some enemies to flee or come to your side before the battle starts. That way, a smooth talking rogue still has to fight, but his "non-combat skills" are making the combat easier - that way should be as fair as it gets.

[Alistair Crowley]

DOUBLE POST

Modifié par Alistair Crowley, 30 novembre 2009 - 07:47 .

[Godeshus]

Zibon wrote...

Oh, and you should also look at what experience represents. It's learning to use your abilities better and improving them. Since you can spend experience towards improving your persuasive abilities, you should also gain experience for using (and thus practicing) those same abilities.

The elder scrolls series works this way. It's just a different system.  

[Zibon]

Godeshus wrote...

Zibon wrote...

Oh, and you should also look at what experience represents. It's learning to use your abilities better and improving them. Since you can spend experience towards improving your persuasive abilities, you should also gain experience for using (and thus practicing) those same abilities.

The elder scrolls series works this way. It's just a different system.  

I'm not talking about the game system, but just what the process of gaining experience represents in a broad sense.  The elder scrolls just works on a finer granularity.

[Inarai]

Reward should be based on overcoming challenge. Swinging a sword at it is not the only, nor always the best way to go about this.

[Godeshus]

Inarai wrote...

Reward should be based on overcoming challenge. Swinging a sword at it is not the only, nor always the best way to go about this.

It is if you've playing the roll of a chaotic evil Arcane Warrior.

[Inarai]

Godeshus wrote...

Inarai wrote...

Reward should be based on overcoming challenge. Swinging a sword at it is not the only, nor always the best way to go about this.

It is if you've playing the roll of a chaotic evil Arcane Warrior.

Tell that to the Joker.

Chaotic Evil, in fact, ALL Evil alignments are are at the best when they're intelligent, cunning, devious...

[menasure]

well to start one should realize that enemies' levels scale to fit your party in game so it does not really matter that much whether you play the endgame at lvl 18 or at 25.

rpg's are not the standard "get to level 100 as fast as possible" games, it's about enjoying your choices and your part in the whole story.

playing the mastermind or the buffoon have each their own merit in a game like this

[JKoopman]

menasure wrote...

well to start one should realize that enemies' levels scale to fit your party in game so it does not really matter that much whether you play the endgame at lvl 18 or at 25.
rpg's are not the standard "get to level 100 as fast as possible" games, it's about enjoying your choices and your part in the whole story.
playing the mastermind or the buffoon have each their own merit in a game like this

But at the same time if I only manage to make it to lvl 18 by endgame that could hinder my ability to develop the character I want by limiting my skills and abilties (21 points and 7 extra skills is alot). Obviously my enjoyment of my character will be lessened if my mage is unable to master the spellschool I wanted or my warrior isn't able to equip that fancy suit of armor because his STR isn't high enough.

What it comes down to, like others have said, is that EXP is more than just understanding how to swing a sword. EXP is learned knowledge, and a character should be able to learn just as much by talking an enemy down as by taking an enemy down. It makes no sense that I can use my acquired experience to enhance my persuasion skills but then gain no experience by making use of those skills.

Modifié par JKoopman, 30 novembre 2009 - 08:20 .