80 réponses à ce sujet

[MR-9]

Oh yes, I completely agree that there is tons to be gained from persuasion checks, but if you use coercion to talk yourself out of combat with a maliciously aligned group of individuals, you've pretty much just made a mistake by going with door number two because door number two has no loot or experience for you.



At the same time you can lose much by stupidly talking yourself into fights with good people.

[Serenity84]

It depends on the encounter. Some of them on don't have worthwhile loot anyways. So there is no point on fighting them. As said, people massively overstate the value of the experience of that single fight.



Others are worth the fight if you want a certain item. Like Ser Cauthrien's Summer Sword.

[pathenry]

Agree, persuasion sucks. Miss out on too much xp + loot.

Once in a while you get something good, but its mostly not as smart as just killing them.

What should happen is that use of persuasion should open up more sidequests, give more loot, make allies, etc.

[Kalcalan]

Godeshus wrote...

Dragon Age is simply not the type of game where you can get and do everything with one character. It's a game that is dynamic based on the choices you make, and xp is rewarded in different ways throughout accordingly.

Exactly.

Sometimes not going for the Persuasion attempt will yield better results (I won't post spoilers). I like the fact that you are given the opportunity to use Persuasion or Intimidation but that you don't necessarily have to.

Besides, being actually able to bully an enemy or to talk your way out of a situation certainly contributes to the heroic dimension of the game. When the Grey Warden talks, people do listen.

[GhostMatter]

I do not agree. In fact, I find persuasion in Dragon Age to be too easy. All my characters have at least one point. I don't care about trap or poison-making on my main so what else can I put my points in?



I do agree with XP gained from persuasion though. Anyway, if you want the XP, fight them, it's not as if persuasion gimped your characters.

[zeejay21]

Hey, at least you get amusing comments. Sometimes, I would rather skip a fight just to enjoy the dialogue. lol

[telephasic]

I've found persuasion very useful honestly. Yes, I have used it to get out of a few fights (all against "white" enemies), which means I suppose I lost a minuscule amount of gold and XP. However, I can think of a handful of persuasion checks in the game which probably netted me an extra 100 gold altogether, either through higher rewards or lesser costs for things.



Going beyond this, the point of the game isn't to get the highest level and best gear possible. The point of the game is to have fun. If your idea of having fun is scrounging every single XP out of the game possible, that's fine. But being persuasive does not set you back in any real way, especially given the game has level scaling.



Probably the least combat-heavy RPG I've ever played was Planescape:Torment. You could win the game without fighting the final boss provided you had a high enough wisdom score, IIRC. Simply epic.

[Kalcalan]

telephasic wrote...

Probably the least combat-heavy RPG I've ever played was Planescape:Torment. You could win the game without fighting the final boss provided you had a high enough wisdom score, IIRC. Simply epic.

Fallout 1 went further as you can finish the game with a non violent diplomat. I did it on multiple occasions for fun because finishing such a game with zero kills is hilarious (I also played through Fallout 2 without using any weapons or attacking anyone).

Persuasion in Dragon Age is a lot of fun, as it should be.

Anyone remembers the dialogue with the ogre in the Blushing Mermaid in Baldur's Gate? That was certainly one of the best line in the game.

[SheffSteel]

If all you have is a hammer, then all problems are nails.



If you don't spend points on Coercion you are left with no option but to fight every fight. If you choose to lower your combat abilities (by a few Skill / Attribute points) in favour of Coercion / Cunning, you get as a reward the ability to gain new items, money and experience through conversations with people you might not want to fight.



In addition, you get the option (as pointed out above, not the obligation) to avoid certain fights. If avoiding a particular fight has no value for you, then go ahead and fight, since the XP and/or loot surely has some value.



Seems like more than a fair trade-off to me. Coercion simply gives you more options.

[telephasic]

Kalcalan wrote...

Fallout 1 went further as you can finish the game with a non violent diplomat. I did it on multiple occasions for fun because finishing such a game with zero kills is hilarious (I also played through Fallout 2 without using any weapons or attacking anyone).

Yeah, I always played a persuasive character in the Fallouts.  I have to say though, I did do a fair amount of shooting with small guns.  Critical hits in the eye or crotch were fabulous. 

Playing a retard was fun too, if game breaking. 

[Chalenheri]

In Ozramar there are 3 or 4 quests, that do not depend on fighting at all and can only be solved with persuation.

[JKoopman]

SheffSteel wrote...

Seems like more than a fair trade-off to me. Coercion simply gives you more options.

True. The option of loot and EXP or the option of nothing. Which is ultimately why we're complaining.

Basically, if you choose to play the game with a silver-tongue and use your wits to pass challenges you're choosing to intentionally penalize your character. There may be the occasional instance where you get a few extra coin out of an NPC (which seems the morally wrong thing to do in most cases as it makes you sound like a greedy bastard in dialog), but for the most part you would get as much gold or more by selling the loot you get from slaughtering your way through the campaign plus the extra EXP that goes with it.

[Roxlimn]

I've been through the game on a high Coercion medium Cunning Mage. It's easier. Talking reduces threats, buffs up allies, gives you unique loot and opportunities, and even outright money and XP. Saying that this does not occur in DAO is outright wrong and reflects a lack of playthrough using high Coercion.



Some quests you can only complete with high Coercion - without the skill, you do not complete it satisfactorily and you don't get the XP.



Coercion doesn't, in fact, make you lose out on things you would otherwise have gotten. I find that this is almost never the case (and yes, I've reloaded to check). In most cases where Coercion gets you past the combat without combat, there is no unique item to be had, and the XP advantage in fighting is negligible to nonexistent.



Coercion opens sidequests, gives you allies, reduces difficulty and grants you unique loot. It does everything people ask of it. It's one of the most powerful skill lines in DAO.



There is no truth to the assertion that using Persuasion penalizes you.

[JKoopman]

I haven't played through the entire campaign yet so it's possible that later on the exact opposite of what I've seen becomes true but so far I've seen several instances where using my persuasion skills where I previously used my sword meant that I missed out on an encounter that had netted me EXP and good loot.

The instance that inspired me to make this thread was when I walked through Denerim for the first time as my silver-tongued priestess character and managed to persuade the templar (I forget his name) who challenges you to a duel to reconsider. Whereas with my no-sh*t-taking warrior I simply butchered him and got a nice suit or armor and a few gold out of it, with persuasion he simply walked away and I got... nothing.

I have yet to encounter any ally that I was unable to recruit without persuasion. Care to ellaborate?

Modifié par JKoopman, 30 novembre 2009 - 04:27 .

[telephasic]

JKoopman wrote...
Basically, if you choose to play the game with a silver-tongue and use your wits to pass challenges you're choosing to intentionally penalize your character. There may be the occasional instance where you get a few extra coin out of an NPC (which seems the morally wrong thing to do in most cases as it makes you sound like a greedy bastard in dialog), but for the most part you would get as much gold or more by selling the loot you get from slaughtering your way through the campaign plus the extra EXP that goes with it.

It sucks this thread is in the no spoilers forum, otherwise I'd ask you for concrete examples, as this really hasn't been my experience playing the game.  As I said, I can only think of two or three encounters offhand I used persuade to avoid.  I used persuade multiple times to get bigger rewards - one questline in Orzammar is particularly lucrative with maxed persuade.  I've reached level 20 already, and will probably be able to hit level 21 before Landsmeet.  So what am I missing out on?  

[Kalcalan]

telephasic wrote...

 I've reached level 20 already, and will probably be able to hit level 21 before Landsmeet.  So what am I missing out on?  

Whatever you're "missing" I'm pretty sure it is not worth all the fun you're having with persuasion.<_<

[arrrasdgaehjskmszkm]

After reading all the OP say, the only complain is against the use of coercion to avoid fights, wich is the 20 % of the use of skill, and as more people say, its a choice avoid fights, not an obligation. True the use of coercion can be more "power-gamer" choice in other games, as Vampire bloodlines, in BG series or in Arcanum ( in this last game you can actually smooth talk the final boss.. i love it) but it is useful.

if you complain about this i dont know why dont complain against dont receive xp for making traps or salvers or when you pickpocket somebody, or when you see an invisible enemy with survival... they are all abilities..

well coercion is more fun than pickpocketing, you have more dialogs and more game content

[Roxlimn]

JKoopman:



That one? The stuff you get from that sidequest is unique, but nothing really good - it's not "good loot" by any means. I battled that guy even with high Persuasion because it was a point of honor - the Persuade options seemed like you were copping out of a fair and honorable fight.



Low gold, bad loot, meh combat. It's nothing to complain about.

[kevlarcardhouse]

I don't have the problem with persuasion and how it works in the game. I don't understand how people expect RPGs to ever have anything meaningful or impactful happen, or to allow any roleplaying at all, if the games are also expected to enable you to experience everything that could happen with one playthrough.



The only time I don't like it is when they set it up as a skill, but then include it as a dialogue option in something that is already pre-scripted to fail. For example, there were many times both in the official campaigns and player modules for NWN2 where it gives you a [Persuade] dialogue option, but in truth either you are forced to fail it for story reasons or it requires a number that's impossibly high for what your character level would naturally be at that point. It can sometimes leave a player who wants to use that skill to mistakenly think he needs to waste skill points improving Charisma or Diplomacy or something even though he can already easily pass any die roll for the vast majority of options.

[SheffSteel]

JKoopman wrote...

SheffSteel wrote...

Seems like more than a fair trade-off to me. Coercion simply gives you more options.

True. The option of loot and EXP or the option of nothing. Which is ultimately why we're complaining.

Basically, if you choose to play the game with a silver-tongue and use your wits to pass challenges you're choosing to intentionally penalize your character. There may be the occasional instance where you get a few extra coin out of an NPC (which seems the morally wrong thing to do in most cases as it makes you sound like a greedy bastard in dialog), but for the most part you would get as much gold or more by selling the loot you get from slaughtering your way through the campaign plus the extra EXP that goes with it.

I think you're missing the point.

When talking to certain friendly NPCs, Coercion gets you ingame benefits (loot and XP) that you would not get without it.
When talking to certain hostile NPCs, Coercion gives you the choice of getting regular ingame benefits (loot and XP) or a real-world benefit (less time and hassle spent fighting) that you would not get without it.
In most battles, Coercion provides no benefit to offset its cost.

Coercion is good for some situations, bad for others. You are given a choice of what to do, with benefits and costs associated with each path. My contention is that some players are happy to spend points on Coercion, and othersare happy not to. In short, it isn't broken.

But each to their own. If you feel happier "slaughtering your way through the campaign" than worrying about being seen as greedy, enjoy the game I guess.

Modifié par SheffSteel, 30 novembre 2009 - 04:51 .

[Revik]

I honestly don't see what the problem is. You can choose to persuade/intimidate if you wish. No one is forcing you to talk your way out it. If you feel the person/demon whomever it might be deserve to die you can attack. The choice is yours.

As for being penalized for talking your way out of things. I don't see it. Most encounters I remember where you can talk your way out of don't usually yield anything particularly unique. What I can attest to is netting yourself quite a bit of gold in the end which you CAN use to buying yourself something unique EG the 100+ gold items off vendors.

Another thing with coercion that helps is keeping your party members happier. Sometimes you are given the option to persuade your party members when you're making a decision which diffuses their objection causing for less alignment loss.

I don't know about you but these are all good things to me. IMO what you gain out of coercion is already too good and having extra XP tied to it would make the skill a requirement as opposed to an option.

[Serenity84]

Simple stop thinking that the 12 silver, 2 rusted chainmail and 3 shortswords of suckiness you get from some low-level encounter you can avoid are worth it. They aren't. You miss out on useless loot. Meanwhile, there are several quests where coercion can get you like 10-30 pieces of gold and/or unique, powerful items. Those easily outweigh the generic loot you may miss. There are also encounters where choosing to fight a character will get you a nice item. You can't generalize about these situations. It goes both ways.

There is also a situation where you have to free a certain character to get the reward (which is a significant amount). If you have high coercion you can persuade him into giving you the key beforehand. You can then doublecross him. Which is a much more satisfying and appropriate way to deal with that character.

And coercion is a skill. You can max that out and still spread out herbalism, poison making, trap making and maybe survival (displays enemy types on the minimap) through the rest of your party. Or have someone with herbalism in the camp. It's easier if you have one or two rogues in the party, since they get more skill points. If coercion where a talent, you'd have a point. But it isn't.

If you don't want to use it to avoid fights, don't. But as said, that's not the only way to use it. You can fight everyone and then talk people into giving you higher rewards. There are other uses for it too...

Modifié par Serenity84, 30 novembre 2009 - 06:02 .

[SheffSteel]

I think the real question we should discuss is whether or not Coercion is such good value that not taking it is a quixotic decision. It's not like any reasonable character is so short of skill points that they can't afford a couple of ranks in Coercion..

[Tosheroon]

My gripe with persuasion and intimidate is that they are actually indicated as such in the reply, e.g. "(Persuasion) Do you feel lucky punk? Well do ya?". If these responses simply appeared as an option for the PC to speak if their coercion is high enough, but were not there otherwise, the dialogue would be much more interesting and unique each play through. Plus, it would prevent the mindset of, "I am a persuasive character and thus I must click the (persuasion) option without even reading it".

[Koralis]

Roxlimn wrote...

 In most cases where Coercion gets you past the combat without combat, there is no unique item to be had, and the XP advantage in fighting is negligible to nonexistent.

Then there's no reason that they can't give the same negligible XP for talking your way past the fight, right?