287 réponses à ce sujet

[ArkkAngel007]

DESTRAUDO wrote...

Indoc theory is a desperate attempt by a percentage of the community to rationalise/come to terms with an ending they would not accept. The logic used by them could be used to suggest that everything that happened since you were knocked out beside the reaper artefact in the arrival DLC was an indoctrination fantasy. He wakes up under no armed guard when they could have murdered him easily in his sleep. He them kills millions of batarians and faces no punishment for it. He then goes on an adventure to save the galaxy using a machine whose purpose is unknown but in whom all faith is placed. On this journey, in most cases by chance he runs into and saves everyone he knew of any importance, and overcomes totally impossible odds to see the greatest challenges of his time overcome by his hands and the hands of those he knows best. He then defeats his enemies in a burst of glory or heroic self sacrifice. Sounds like an indoctrination fantasy that plays to shepards desires from start to finish to me. XD

You could go further and say everything that happened since shepard touched the protean artefact in ME1 is all a fantasy. A star trek TNG 'inner light' style sequence in which the device examines a human mind to gain an understanding of this species.

Or maybe shepard is a brain in a jar, recovered by the collectors at the beginning of ME2 and allowed to run through various tactical scenarios to make the domination of this cycle significantly easier. Afterall why would the collectors/reapers have such an interest in shepard, blow up the normandy but then not bother recovering the remains themselves.

See that is the problem with indoc theory. If you lower the bar of evidence to where indoc is valid, you can suggest pretty much anything is true.

No it doesn't.  And it's no desparate plea to rationalize or justify the endings.  

If you want to insult a group, do it properly next time.

[lex0r11]

no, it is not fact, nothing is on this board. let everyone speculate but please don't do it on peoples ideas or positions.

also, is it wrong to think that this might be a good way to implement a completely new fixed endgame with the stuff fans are wishing for, while still incorporating the current ending. maybe even using the opportunity to show/explain what indoctrination is and how one might fight it.

i thought 95% here want the ending fixed?
indoc theory does not justify what the hell was going on in the end. it will help DLC when it is used.

Modifié par lex0r11, 21 mars 2012 - 12:27 .

[tybbiesniffer]

How did a "Why don't some people want to believe shep is indoctrinated?" thread become another thread trying to convince us that it's right? Don't we have enough of those?

[RLesueur]

Indoctrination IS real. I'm super ceral you guys.

[Illusive]

The Indoctrination theory makes sense (to me) in that it explains the numerous inconsistencies and plotholes in the ending, and there is a ton of evidence to support it. However, I'm reluctant to believe it was what Bioware intended because they are facing a historic backlash, and haven't said anything about it. With a (much) worse than expected reaction to the ending, you'd think they would have reassured players that there is more of the ending to come, or at least moved up their original announcement date if it was something like April 6.

[TheGreenAlloy]

DESTRAUDO wrote...

Indoc theory is a desperate attempt by a percentage of the community to rationalise/come to terms with an ending they would not accept. The logic used by them could be used to suggest that everything that happened since you were knocked out beside the reaper artefact in the arrival DLC was an indoctrination fantasy. He wakes up under no armed guard when they could have murdered him easily in his sleep. He them kills millions of batarians and faces no punishment for it. He then goes on an adventure to save the galaxy using a machine whose purpose is unknown but in whom all faith is placed. On this journey, in most cases by chance he runs into and saves everyone he knew of any importance, and overcomes totally impossible odds to see the greatest challenges of his time overcome by his hands and the hands of those he knows best. He then defeats his enemies in a burst of glory or heroic self sacrifice. Sounds like an indoctrination fantasy that plays to shepards desires from start to finish to me. XD

You could go further and say everything that happened since shepard touched the protean artefact in ME1 is all a fantasy. A star trek TNG 'inner light' style sequence in which the device examines a human mind to gain an understanding of this species.

Or maybe shepard is a brain in a jar, recovered by the collectors at the beginning of ME2 and allowed to run through various tactical scenarios to make the domination of this cycle significantly easier. Afterall why would the collectors/reapers have such an interest in shepard, blow up the normandy but then not bother recovering the remains themselves.

See that is the problem with indoc theory. If you lower the bar of evidence to where indoc is valid, you can suggest pretty much anything is true.

https://docs.google....?pli=1&sle=true

[ArkkAngel007]

tybbiesniffer wrote...

How did a "Why don't some people want to believe shep is indoctrinated?" thread become another thread trying to convince us that it's right? Don't we have enough of those?

Really?  I see a lot more trying to prove it wrong.  I also don't see the majority of people trying to prove it right, but just justifying their view and defending it.

The hypocrisy runs deep.

[TheGreenAlloy]

ArkkAngel007 wrote...

tybbiesniffer wrote...

How did a "Why don't some people want to believe shep is indoctrinated?" thread become another thread trying to convince us that it's right? Don't we have enough of those?

Really?  I see a lot more trying to prove it wrong.  I also don't see the majority of people trying to prove it right, but just justifying their view and defending it.

The hypocrisy runs deep.

[Grusome11]

ArkkAngel007 wrote...

DESTRAUDO wrote...

Indoc theory is a desperate attempt by a percentage of the community to rationalise/come to terms with an ending they would not accept. The logic used by them could be used to suggest that everything that happened since you were knocked out beside the reaper artefact in the arrival DLC was an indoctrination fantasy. He wakes up under no armed guard when they could have murdered him easily in his sleep. He them kills millions of batarians and faces no punishment for it. He then goes on an adventure to save the galaxy using a machine whose purpose is unknown but in whom all faith is placed. On this journey, in most cases by chance he runs into and saves everyone he knew of any importance, and overcomes totally impossible odds to see the greatest challenges of his time overcome by his hands and the hands of those he knows best. He then defeats his enemies in a burst of glory or heroic self sacrifice. Sounds like an indoctrination fantasy that plays to shepards desires from start to finish to me. XD

You could go further and say everything that happened since shepard touched the protean artefact in ME1 is all a fantasy. A star trek TNG 'inner light' style sequence in which the device examines a human mind to gain an understanding of this species.

Or maybe shepard is a brain in a jar, recovered by the collectors at the beginning of ME2 and allowed to run through various tactical scenarios to make the domination of this cycle significantly easier. Afterall why would the collectors/reapers have such an interest in shepard, blow up the normandy but then not bother recovering the remains themselves.

See that is the problem with indoc theory. If you lower the bar of evidence to where indoc is valid, you can suggest pretty much anything is true.

No it doesn't.  And it's no desparate plea to rationalize or justify the endings.  

If you want to insult a group, do it properly next time.

Indoc theory is saying that everything after harbingers beam is an attempt by the Reapers to indoc Shep and happens in his mind. This explains all the plot holes in the ending.

Could everything from The Arrival be a dream/indoc attempt? Sure, but most Indocionists are not saying that.

[the red boon]

The Prothean VI didn't detect him for indoctrination and its a pathetic theory justifying the horrible endings! screwregoff predicted this ending at least a year ago claiming it would Babylon 5ish and how it was overdone. Bioware got lazy! Realize it! Accept it!

[tybbiesniffer]

ArkkAngel007 wrote...

tybbiesniffer wrote...

How did a "Why don't some people want to believe shep is indoctrinated?" thread become another thread trying to convince us that it's right? Don't we have enough of those?

Really?  I see a lot more trying to prove it wrong.  I also don't see the majority of people trying to prove it right, but just justifying their view and defending it.

The hypocrisy runs deep.

You're missing the point.  The question was "why don't some people believe?"  And the thread started that way.  Then it turned to convincing those that don't believe that they should.  I'm ambivalent on "evidence" for either side of the debate; I don't care.  Bioware wrote the story.  If they had said that's what happened, ok.  They haven't so.....ok.  I just liked seeing why other people didn't believe it.  I may not like the ending but it doesn't mean I want someone else to write it.

[TheGreenAlloy]

the red boon wrote...

The Prothean VI didn't detect him for indoctrination

They didn't detect their own species becoming agents for the Reapers, either. Besides, Shepard isn't indoctrinated when he speaks with the Prothean VI for the last time, I don't think.

[thehomeworld]

fuzzyroo wrote...

 I don't like the indoctronation theory because people seem to be overlooking one of the biggest issues.  You have to hang out with X ammount of reaper tech.  They mention this all the time.  Saron lived in Soverign.  Illusive man was using refineries to make husks (not to mention his own reaper implants).  Shepard...didn't really spend much time hugging reaper.  So him/her being indoctrinated doesn't really fly with me... Unless there was a big reaper obilisk in the middle of the Normandy that he/she sacrificed goats too on occasion...

But EDI has reaper tech in here she says so in ME2 so you are spending day and night arought said tech.Shepard may also have reaper tech used in him he was able to use the reaper beacon and live plus he was knocked out in its broadcast range for 2days.

So he's had some constant exposure to the devices that doesn't however make me happy with the indoctrination theory because that means nothing on the damaged citidel happened, shep didn't do anything to save the world and being hit by the laser makes him too unable now to continue so he can't do anything if he wakes up in London, and you can't beat indoctrination for long Benezia nor Saren could they both had to die and if you kill the reaeprs all indoctrinated souls (including shep in this case) will die or become so zombie like they will not be able to function nor eat nor do anything at all to preserve their lives on their own they're litterally brainless vetagbles standing.

[Lord Jaric]

Because it's a fan theory. Regardless heather or not I like a fan theory it is not official

Modifié par Lord Jaric, 21 mars 2012 - 01:10 .

[Larryboy_Dragon]

Stargazer implies the ending is exactly as it appears.

[Grusome11]

thehomeworld wrote...

fuzzyroo wrote...

 I don't like the indoctronation theory because people seem to be overlooking one of the biggest issues.  You have to hang out with X ammount of reaper tech.  They mention this all the time.  Saron lived in Soverign.  Illusive man was using refineries to make husks (not to mention his own reaper implants).  Shepard...didn't really spend much time hugging reaper.  So him/her being indoctrinated doesn't really fly with me... Unless there was a big reaper obilisk in the middle of the Normandy that he/she sacrificed goats too on occasion...

But EDI has reaper tech in here she says so in ME2 so you are spending day and night arought said tech.Shepard may also have reaper tech used in him he was able to use the reaper beacon and live plus he was knocked out in its broadcast range for 2days.

So he's had some constant exposure to the devices that doesn't however make me happy with the indoctrination theory because that means nothing on the damaged citidel happened, shep didn't do anything to save the world and being hit by the laser makes him too unable now to continue so he can't do anything if he wakes up in London, and you can't beat indoctrination for long Benezia nor Saren could they both had to die and if you kill the reaeprs all indoctrinated souls (including shep in this case) will die or become so zombie like they will not be able to function nor eat nor do anything at all to preserve their lives on their own they're litterally brainless vetagbles standing.

Note that TIM rebuilt Shep in ME2. Did he use Reaper tech to bring him back to life?

[N-Seven]

Paragon Auducan wrote...

RLesueur wrote...

Paragon Auducan wrote...

And yet I have still to hear a SINGLE argument as to why Shepard wakes up on Earth in the destruction ending that makes any sense whatsoever.

Have you considered it's just supposed to be the wreckage of the citadel? It's only your assumption that it's earth.

That's right, last time I checked the Citadel was made of shiny metal not concrete with metal poles holding things together.

Also there wouldn't be any rubble if the Citadel blew up, it would fly away in space.

Because there's no stone or concrete or synthecrete or whatever on the citadel?  I don't think so.   There's all sorts of materials on the Citadel.  There are trees and shrubbery.  Leather chairs.  Offices and bars built by it's inhabitants.  Structures, shops, housing that was built by recent inhabitants.  The rubble is of the Citadel.  It looks stone-like.  It might not be stone, but it might be some other artificial porous material that resembles stone.  It sounds like stone when your characters walk on it.  When the Normandy crashes in end of the first Mass Effect you can see what looks like stone-like rubble. 

So basically another leap of logic is that the entire Citadel must be constructed of non-stone like substances and no reinforcement bars are used.   So that doesn't make any sense, it's ridiculous and the logical conclusion is that he is on Earth and the entire sequence was an indoctrination-based hallucination, and Bioware released an incomplete game.

Um, no.

Modifié par N-Seven, 21 mars 2012 - 04:14 .

[Senario]

*cough* Bioware was just lazy with the endings. I posted earlier, Indoctrination gives a bit too many plot holes or problems within the story when you take into account lore, what happens to indoctrinated, and the prothean VI.

Start from scratch ppl, Bad writing cannot be solved by amending that writing to 'make sense" it still is bad writing. Start re-working from the Run to the beam scene. Would solve everybody's problems.

[Spanking Machine]

I don't think saying that the last part of the game was a dream makes it any better of an ending than the literal interpretation. If you take it literally, the ending makes little sense. If you assume indoctrination, it means that the game just cut off incomplete without showing us how the war ended. Either way, it leaves the series with an unsatisfying conclusion.

[streamlock]

I actually think it would be a pretty slick move myself. Just as they don't charge for it. Unless they make a full on expansion that is worthy of additional investment.

[the red boon]

TheGreenAlloy wrote...

the red boon wrote...

The Prothean VI didn't detect him for indoctrination

They didn't detect their own species becoming agents for the Reapers, either. Besides, Shepard isn't indoctrinated when he speaks with the Prothean VI for the last time, I don't think.

Javik says at first they didn't realize people were indoctrinated until it was too late. They do have the technology it was too late and how would it detect cerberus indoctrinated and not Shepard. This theory creates more questions then answers. It was a horrible ending, nothing deeper than that. 

Modifié par the red boon, 21 mars 2012 - 04:27 .

[streamlock]

Oh, and if it turns out to be true-all those a-hats calling me some kind of 'whiney entitled child' or what have you will have to eat their damn hats.

That has made me want to believe it a 100 fold in and of itself.

[coolerdude]

so what if the indoctrination is true? They still presented it horribly and lied to us all through all their pre-release interviews.

If Bioware actually planned this, I find it more unforgivable that we had speculate so much to come up with an ending that cannot be confirmed (which is to say that Bioware has to confirm it, instead of fans posting videos with "evidence").

To me, the indoc theory does not change a SINGLE THING

[Storenumber9]

I've personally never supported the theory. I think it's interesting, but in the long run, it's just grasping at straws.

Odds are, Bioware dropped the ball. It happens sometimes.