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[Intomydimension]

 people trying to invalidate the indoctrination theory, but do not accept that the theory makes more sense that the retake mass effect, and all who mourn in twitter and memes colors


indoctrination theory is gaining on you unbelievers, since it has more evidence that those who say that the end was well done it without any purpose so to, badly written and full of holes magic space

[GBGriffin]

greywardencommander wrote...

by that same token how can you accept the endings as they are? Surely he's dead and the last 10 mins didn't happen?

I don't accept them as is, but not for that reason. Personally, I do believe Shep was knocked down, or at least really disoriented after that...wounded, certainly. It's just something that seems....for lack of a better word, odd. No explanation is given for how (or, yes, if) Shep survives. It just isn't explained, which leaves room for both sides to argue indoctrination vs poor design.

[Raiden011]

[/quote]
Why doesn't it make sense?  If it's a hallucination then the entire point is that it doesn't make sense because its a hallucination...

And Shepard is not indoctrinated at that point.  Shepard is fighting off an indoctrination attempt.  You only become indoctrinated if you choose 'Control' or 'Synthesis'.

[/quote]

Thats what I think too. My question though is if u break the attempt by choosing Destroy, you wake up in the rubble in London at the base of the Pillar/Gate. So regardless of option though, as it was a dream/indoctrination, Shep never really destroys the Reapers leaving the cycle to be completed and start over again.

[thehomeworld]

Rohirrim wrote...

GBGriffin wrote...

Rohirrim wrote...

I totally agree with you. Imagine an ending depending on your colour choice:

- DESTROY: Shepard wakes up in the rubble. Harbinger is furious at his failed indoctrination attempt and despearatly tries to stop Shepard from reaching the Citadel. You get to play a mission on the Citadel which has C-Sec and all inhabitants desperately fighting off the husks storming the place. Shepard has to fight TIM, open the arms of the Citadel, the Crucible docks, fires and you saved the galaxy.

- CONTROL/ SYNTHESIS: The camera shows Hacket onboard of a ship. Through a window in the background you see the ongoing fight between reapers and your gathered forces. "Shepard. Anderson. Come in. Come in.", he calls with desperation in his voice. Shepard does not reply. Your mission is to get to the Citadel. Noone is trying to stop you. Husks ignore you. Inhabitants watch in awe and disbelief as the greatest hero of their time stubmles across the battle on the Citadel. Reports of Shepard on the Citadel reach Hacket. "SHEPARD, open the arms! We need the curible to dock!", yells Hacket. A few heartbeats of silence, then Shepard says: "No.". When Hacket realizes what's going on, he sends the Normandy's crew to the rescue. Here, you could either get to play three of your squadmates going up against an indoctrinated Shep or play out Shep himself, desperately trying to break free of indoctrination but unable to do so (eg no dialogue options to give in to the reasoning by your squatmates). Liara cries, Vega gets into your ear: "Come to your senses, Loco!", Garrus looks down in disbelief. It is too late for Shep to resist. You have the option to fight your squatmates or shoot yourself (like Saren did). If you win, the reapers win, if you lose, the galaxy win. There is no escape for Shep as he lost his fight against indoctrination. That would be a bittersweet ending in my opinion.

That's really unfair to the people who generally believe Synthesis works, though. Even I believed it at some point. Also, why just two (well 3) endings? Why not more? Indoctrination still basically limits the players to 3 choices, and only one of them is technically "correct"...why not keep the current ending and actually expand more on it to produce multiple endings, good and bad?

This could be achieved in the cut scenes that are shown from time to time. You see your allies fighting the reapers and depending on the number of war assets you see different cut scenes as part of the ending.

As for Synthesis, you have a point, so let's do:

SYNTHESIS: Shepard essentially becomes Saren (not physically, but the same ideals were indoctrinated into him). You play Shepard who is now communicating on a friendly basis with Harbinber. "To all fleets, this is Commander Shepard. Hold your fire. I repeat: hold your fire." Baffled faces everywhere, but the fleets have come to trust in Shep. Harbinger gives the order to the reapers to stop shooting. Silence as you see the damage unfolding and a creepy unease with all the forces. I'm not sure how to go from there as it has been established that the reapers kill organics and synthesis for them means "husks". Any ideas?

I took hybrid mode to be shep allowing the reapers to keep doing what they wanted ie the reaper win ending where he dies and then we see the reapers wipe out all the fleets and their major resistance all in one place, then they proceed to huskify all the fighters and one by one you would see your ground crew get rounded up some tossed onto spikes other ones loaded into pods to be taken onto the ships and then you'd see a galaxy view as each highlighted major world goes dark and blackness (the reapers) spread across the galaxy.

Control I thought we'd make the reapers leave and handout in darkspace never to return.

I like the above idea on control how he see the real shep struggling to make it to the controls but then just keeping them as is and not helping to open the citadel and his squad then having to fight shep instead to do his job for him.

[Fingertrip]

I know it's wrong because I actually paid attention to the logs in the derelict Reaper and Arrival, and read Retribution, so I know that actual indoctrination doesn't resemble anything that happens to Shepard even a little bit.

Not sure if troll or just stupid. The Arrival alone should suffice that Shepard didn't come out unscathed from it. Re-read the Codex regarding Indoctrination, and the novels- then re-check the 21 minute long Indoctrination youtube video.

Also, should be mentioned that some of the Bioware staff has been hintin that some "theories" on the BSN are very intriguing and should have some look at, and there's only really been one "theory", and that's the indoctrination one. It was even planned to be indoctrination on Shepards end, and that he lost complete control (Losing complete control was removed) >> Instead, it's relying on it's playerbase to be self-aware of the issue, and if you didn't pay attention at all through-out ME1+ME2(or just didn't simply take a hint), you would fail, and that's what alot of people seem to have done.

The evidence is stockpiled. There's a bloody good reason why Bioware told they don't want us to lose faith in them, and they're promising in delivering the goods, let-alone, they've got alot of stuff lined-up, and you can bet your sweet behind that it concerns the ending of the game. (Deadline couldn't be met, so they cut Javik from the game in-order to financialize the final product from the 5-10$ purchases made by alot of the fans in order to get the crucial Prothean Member). Re-funds and returns won't really measure up based on the quantity of DLC they sold either way, more people are keen on buying, rather than on selling or asking for a refund, that's the minority.

If anything, I think Bioware is disapointed in the lack of awareness of Indoctrination and it's process, which has been always a deliberate and important issue in the trilogy. Slipped right by peoples minds, and the story has always been the essential spearhead of this game, and they probably thought peopel would be smarter then this, and not stir up some controversial ****storm, which alas- it has proven to be just the case.

Bioware is disapoint.

[dreman9999]

 Theary already covered your comments.

[Aaleel]

Mbednar wrote...

Aaleel wrote...

What, you wake up on the hill and then go through the beam?  Then what's the catalyst then, how are you going to use the crucible?

Don't know. 

Didn't read it thoroughly. 

I think when you wake up, the beams gone and you make a final push on Earth with Anderson.  Don't know how the Crucible is involved.  I think it destroys the Reapers shield or something.

But you need a catalyst to make the Crucible work.  If it wasn't the space kid, you never found out what it was.  So you can't use the Crucible, and you can't win by conventional means.  So if you were indoctrinated, and the space kid was not the catalyst, under this theory you can't win.  Reapers win and everyone is harvested, see you in 50,000 years.

Modifié par Aaleel, 21 mars 2012 - 03:13 .

[GBGriffin]

Intomydimension wrote...

 people trying to invalidate the indoctrination theory, but do not accept that the theory makes more sense that the retake mass effect, and all who mourn in twitter and memes colors


indoctrination theory is gaining on you unbelievers, since it has more evidence that those who say that the end was well done it without any purpose so to, badly written and full of holes magic space

Indoctrination theory has the exact same amount of evidence as the people who argue it was poor writing or design. Literally, the exact same amount, because the evidence fits both theories. Both theories can make sense of all the evidence, just in different ways.

It's a matter of opinion and the willingness to believe that one speculation is more valid than another speculation.

[Mellotron]

Rohirrim wrote...

Aaleel wrote...

balance5050 wrote..


A.) Javic the prothean himself said that there were sleeper units amongst them that weren't discovered for a long time, so the VI's aren't perfect. 

B.) The theory is that they are ATTEMPTING to indoctrinate Shepard, the only point in the game where he could actually become indoctrinated is if Harbinger tricked you into Controling or Synthesis at the end, which it looked like he did to you.

I actually picked destroy.  Letting them live seemed stupid.  Doesn't mean the theory doesn't make any sense to me.  It also says that killing every synthetic in the known universe is the only right option after three games.  Another reason why I can;t get behind the theory.

This is a reason why you SHOULD get behind the theory. Think about WHO or WHAT told you that lie.

Exactly. Part of the IT is that the choices don't atually take place in reality, so the starchild is talking nonsense.

[Raiden011]

Fingertrip wrote...

I know it's wrong because I actually paid attention to the logs in the derelict Reaper and Arrival, and read Retribution, so I know that actual indoctrination doesn't resemble anything that happens to Shepard even a little bit.

Not sure if troll or just stupid. The Arrival alone should suffice that Shepard didn't come out unscathed from it. Re-read the Codex regarding Indoctrination, and the novels- then re-check the 21 minute long Indoctrination youtube video.

Also, should be mentioned that some of the Bioware staff has been hintin that some "theories" on the BSN are very intriguing and should have some look at, and there's only really been one "theory", and that's the indoctrination one. It was even planned to be indoctrination on Shepards end, and that he lost complete control (Losing complete control was removed) >> Instead, it's relying on it's playerbase to be self-aware of the issue, and if you didn't pay attention at all through-out ME1+ME2(or just didn't simply take a hint), you would fail, and that's what alot of people seem to have done.

The evidence is stockpiled. There's a bloody good reason why Bioware told they don't want us to lose faith in them, and they're promising in delivering the goods, let-alone, they've got alot of stuff lined-up, and you can bet your sweet behind that it concerns the ending of the game. (Deadline couldn't be met, so they cut Javik from the game in-order to financialize the final product from the 5-10$ purchases made by alot of the fans in order to get the crucial Prothean Member). Re-funds and returns won't really measure up based on the quantity of DLC they sold either way, more people are keen on buying, rather than on selling or asking for a refund, that's the minority.

If anything, I think Bioware is disapointed in the lack of awareness of Indoctrination and it's process, which has been always a deliberate and important issue in the trilogy. Slipped right by peoples minds, and the story has always been the essential spearhead of this game, and they probably thought peopel would be smarter then this, and not stir up some controversial ****storm, which alas- it has proven to be just the case.

Bioware is disapoint.

I completely agree with you there mate

[Mbednar]

Aaleel wrote...

Mbednar wrote...

Aaleel wrote...

What, you wake up on the hill and then go through the beam?  Then what's the catalyst then, how are you going to use the crucible?

Don't know. 

Didn't read it thoroughly. 

I think when you wake up, the beams gone and you make a final push on Earth with Anderson.  Don't know how the Crucible is involved.  I think it destroys the Reapers shield or something.

But you need a catalyst to make the Crucible work.  If it wasn't the space kid, you never found out what it was.  So you can't use the Crucible, and you can't win by conventional means.  So if you were indoctrinated, and the space kid was not the catalyst, under this theory you can't win.  Reapers win and everyone is harvested, see you in 50,000 years.

Again, didn't read it thoroughly.  I think that the catalyst is just the citadel.  The crucible would just use the power of the citadel like a giant battery.

No mystery ghost thing.  Just the citadel itself. 

Crucible links with it, shields go down, fleet wins, hooray.  I think thats the gist of it.

The Theory is pretty solid.

My biggest gripe with it, like I keep saying, is that it makes the current 3 endings pointless, alienating a lot of people who like them.

[DarthSyphilis59]

tommythetomcat wrote...

Yeah indoctrination doesn't fit at all even though its a major reoccurring theme throughout all 3 games.

SERIOUSLY!? I Suppose that "Reapers" don't fit the ending either.<_<

[Allaiya]

Aaleel wrote...

It also says that killing every synthetic in the known universe is the only
right option after three games.  Another reason why I can;t get behind the
theory.

Wait, so you would rather believe the face value where Bioware is telling you
that to destroy the reapers you need to kill all Synthetics

Vs.

The IT theory which is saying that in Shepard's
hallucination/dream (so none of this is real anyway), Harbinger is telling (lying) to Shep that to destroy the
reapers he has to kill all Synthetics including Shep himself. We see this is NOT
true because Shep lives. Per the theory, Harbinger only says this because he intentionally
wants Shep to NOT pick that option. Which worked, because that was the
reason I didn't pick the destroy my first time around

Modifié par mrfinke, 21 mars 2012 - 03:22 .

[SpideyKnight]

GBGriffin wrote...

SpideyKnight wrote...

 The VI says you aren't indoctrinated.  That's it.  It's over.  It clearly calls out the people who are indoctrinated with ease.  Why would it not call out Shep?  Face it, look at those endings, look at the design notes.  You think Bio is clever enough to think of something as subtle as the indoctrination theory?  Probably not.  Give it up and return to the line soldiers.

Not trying to provoke you, but your argument of: 

"You think Bio is clever enough to think of something as subtle as the indoctrination theory?"

can be (and, in some threads, has been) countered with the following:

"Bio is clever enough to think of something as subtle as the indoctrination theory"

And, at this point, that's really what it comes down to. A difference of opinion of hypothetical theories with no official word either way.

Truth and worry not brother, I enjoy healthy discussion, no harm, no foul even if you were to provoke me(not saying you did).  Yes it can be countered with it's opposite that is true.  I would argue that the old Bio was clever enough to think of something like that.  This new one though?  With this ending?  With DA2?  With SWTOR?  You still have unwavering faith?  You're a dedicated man sir.  

I was a Bio mark, not even going to lie.  Spent well over 230 bucks on ME3 so far(CE Artbook, CE strat guide, CE game).  Started with System Shock 2, then BG1 and BG2 easily one of the best games of all time, along with SWTOR, Hordes of the Underdark has one of the greatest campaigns and touching romances of all, all the way to Jade Empire.  Just hit after hit for 6 years or so.  Hard not to be a mark, they could do no wrong for me.  After Jade came ME1, DA:O, and ME2 and they kept smacking them out of the park.  Then DA2 hit me, then I spent an outrageous amount on SWTOR for a solid single player experience, from an MMO, and then these endings(along with Tali's complete mistreatment) completely shattered me.  I stood in disbelief of them for far longer than was healthy.  

The plot holes, the inconsistency, the railroading, all of it just rubbish.  It is certainly an opinon.  But looking at those design documents, the leaked script, and then the ending we got.  I just don't have that much faith in what remains of Bio's cleverness.  I mean come on, the complete lack of effort the showed Tali, when in the Tali thread they explicitly stated they were going to pay special attention to Tali's popularity, was a complete lie.  Couple that with all the other lies and half-truths we got.  I just can't believe anymore.

[Intomydimension]

Fingertrip wrote...

I know it's wrong because I actually paid attention to the logs in the derelict Reaper and Arrival, and read Retribution, so I know that actual indoctrination doesn't resemble anything that happens to Shepard even a little bit.

Not sure if troll or just stupid. The Arrival alone should suffice that Shepard didn't come out unscathed from it. Re-read the Codex regarding Indoctrination, and the novels- then re-check the 21 minute long Indoctrination youtube video.

Also, should be mentioned that some of the Bioware staff has been hintin that some "theories" on the BSN are very intriguing and should have some look at, and there's only really been one "theory", and that's the indoctrination one. It was even planned to be indoctrination on Shepards end, and that he lost complete control (Losing complete control was removed) >> Instead, it's relying on it's playerbase to be self-aware of the issue, and if you didn't pay attention at all through-out ME1+ME2(or just didn't simply take a hint), you would fail, and that's what alot of people seem to have done.

The evidence is stockpiled. There's a bloody good reason why Bioware told they don't want us to lose faith in them, and they're promising in delivering the goods, let-alone, they've got alot of stuff lined-up, and you can bet your sweet behind that it concerns the ending of the game. (Deadline couldn't be met, so they cut Javik from the game in-order to financialize the final product from the 5-10$ purchases made by alot of the fans in order to get the crucial Prothean Member). Re-funds and returns won't really measure up based on the quantity of DLC they sold either way, more people are keen on buying, rather than on selling or asking for a refund, that's the minority.

If anything, I think Bioware is disapointed in the lack of awareness of Indoctrination and it's process, which has been always a deliberate and important issue in the trilogy. Slipped right by peoples minds, and the story has always been the essential spearhead of this game, and they probably thought peopel would be smarter then this, and not stir up some controversial ****storm, which alas- it has proven to be just the case.

Bioware is disapoint.

THIS !! strongly agree

[GBGriffin]

Raiden011 wrote...

Fingertrip wrote...

I know it's wrong because I actually paid attention to the logs in the derelict Reaper and Arrival, and read Retribution, so I know that actual indoctrination doesn't resemble anything that happens to Shepard even a little bit.

Not sure if troll or just stupid. The Arrival alone should suffice that Shepard didn't come out unscathed from it. Re-read the Codex regarding Indoctrination, and the novels- then re-check the 21 minute long Indoctrination youtube video.

Also, should be mentioned that some of the Bioware staff has been hintin that some "theories" on the BSN are very intriguing and should have some look at, and there's only really been one "theory", and that's the indoctrination one. It was even planned to be indoctrination on Shepards end, and that he lost complete control (Losing complete control was removed) >> Instead, it's relying on it's playerbase to be self-aware of the issue, and if you didn't pay attention at all through-out ME1+ME2(or just didn't simply take a hint), you would fail, and that's what alot of people seem to have done.

The evidence is stockpiled. There's a bloody good reason why Bioware told they don't want us to lose faith in them, and they're promising in delivering the goods, let-alone, they've got alot of stuff lined-up, and you can bet your sweet behind that it concerns the ending of the game. (Deadline couldn't be met, so they cut Javik from the game in-order to financialize the final product from the 5-10$ purchases made by alot of the fans in order to get the crucial Prothean Member). Re-funds and returns won't really measure up based on the quantity of DLC they sold either way, more people are keen on buying, rather than on selling or asking for a refund, that's the minority.

If anything, I think Bioware is disapointed in the lack of awareness of Indoctrination and it's process, which has been always a deliberate and important issue in the trilogy. Slipped right by peoples minds, and the story has always been the essential spearhead of this game, and they probably thought peopel would be smarter then this, and not stir up some controversial ****storm, which alas- it has proven to be just the case.

Bioware is disapoint.

I completely agree with you there mate

Again, hinting is not official, and that's all they've done: sit back and poke the coals occasionally to keep the fire going. 

Your theory is just as valid as mine. I can't prove that you're wrong, despite my belief that I have evidence, and you can't prove that I'm wrong, despite the fact that you believe you have evidence.

Also, if you conceive an ending so "deep" that it slips right by the vast majority of your audience...is it really a success? Or did you botch the story telling? Again, both points are equally valid; you can't prove which is the "right" one.

And, if this was intentional...why not clear it up? I'm pretty sure when their disastrous campaign around Dante's Inferno came to light, they officially made an announcement about it. But silence? Asking for suggestions to improve the ending instead of telling us they have something planned? That tells you they have something planned?

This whole argument...has no reason to even exist other than to occupy people while they wait for an official response.

[Mbednar]

SpideyKnight wrote...

Truth and worry not brother, I enjoy healthy discussion, no harm, no foul even if you were to provoke me(not saying you did).  Yes it can be countered with it's opposite that is true.  I would argue that the old Bio was clever enough to think of something like that.  This new one though?  With this ending?  With DA2?  With SWTOR?  You still have unwavering faith?  You're a dedicated man sir.  

I was a Bio mark, not even going to lie.  Spent well over 230 bucks on ME3 so far(CE Artbook, CE strat guide, CE game).  Started with System Shock 2, then BG1 and BG2 easily one of the best games of all time, along with SWTOR, Hordes of the Underdark has one of the greatest campaigns and touching romances of all, all the way to Jade Empire.  Just hit after hit for 6 years or so.  Hard not to be a mark, they could do no wrong for me.  After Jade came ME1, DA:O, and ME2 and they kept smacking them out of the park.  Then DA2 hit me, then I spent an outrageous amount on SWTOR for a solid single player experience, from an MMO, and then these endings(along with Tali's complete mistreatment) completely shattered me.  I stood in disbelief of them for far longer than was healthy.  

The plot holes, the inconsistency, the railroading, all of it just rubbish.  It is certainly an opinon.  But looking at those design documents, the leaked script, and then the ending we got.  I just don't have that much faith in what remains of Bio's cleverness.  I mean come on, the complete lack of effort the showed Tali, when in the Tali thread they explicitly stated they were going to pay special attention to Tali's popularity, was a complete lie.  Couple that with all the other lies and half-truths we got.  I just can't believe anymore.

The fact remains that Bioware does still have the opporitunity to release optional ending DLCs.

Bethesda has done it and they made a hefty sum of money on it (Fallout 3)  Todd Howard, head guy behind Bethesda, even admitted to screwing up.  Fans still love them though.

You should just hope that Bioware still has something of a heart... I know I don't think they do anymore

Modifié par Mbednar, 21 mars 2012 - 03:31 .

[DevilBeast]

GBGriffin wrote...

DevilBeast wrote...

It´s strange. I remember awhile back a discussion on the Mass Effect wiki concerning wether Matriarch Aethyta was Liara´s father or not. At this point, we only had Aethyta´s story about her having a pureblood daugther and the Shadow Broker files, and there were alot who kept claiming that those who believed she was Liara´s dad were grasping at straws. That there wasn´t enough evidence to back up the claim.

Although it´s about a different subject the nature of this discussion about the ID theory is almost the same as the one about Liara´s heritage: Someone believes Bioware has left out "breadcrumbs" for us to find others that Bioware couldn´t possibly have the skills to do so.

The thing is, do you know what ultimately confirmed that theory as true? BioWare confirming the theory by putting it in the game

At this point, we're arguing over unknowns and theories. Whether or not it's intended or not cannot be proven or disproven at this time. People have just been beating this horse to death because, without anything new from BioWare, it's all people really have to talk about. Again, once BioWare steps forward and addresses it, then we'll know, but I don't see that happening for some time, if ever.

You are right, but Bioware does have a tendency to make small hints that points to something else. F.ex: with the Asari PTSD soldier and Joker´s family on Tiptree (I believe Joker said in one of the other games that his sister was named Hilary). So, having all this evidence (although some of it can be explained by simple gameplay mechanics such as the type of gun etc.) scattered throughout the game, it just doesn´t seems like a simple coincidence. Especially considering how much effort they have been putting into other rather insignificant details. 

[PrimarchGarrus]

Blaizer wrote...

blackangel209 wrote...

I think it's hard to believe that Bioware just screwed up when the amount of things they messed up is freaking ridiculous. I can't believe that any writer, even an incompetent one, could possibly not notice that many horrible inconsistencies. And how was it not checked? Was the ending written with no knowledge of the Mass Effect universe by someone in a box, separated from the rest of the dev team?

And honestly, there's a large amount of things that point specifically to indoctrination. I have no idea how these endings could have been entirely on accident. Coincidence is one thing, but my god, that's a lot to screw up and still somehow leave a pretty convincing, non-retcon out.

Hanlon's Razor:

    Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.

It seems to me that a lot of people are putting weight on the indoc theory just because they do not want to beleive that BW screwed up this badly.  They did.

But just like you don't accept the Indoc theory, we don't accept the ending to the game. You have no proof, or even real evidence that would dismay the belief of the Indoc theory, besides the game's end. However, we also use the end of the game as our evidence towards the indoc thoery, and quite honestly, we have a lot more evidence in the ending sequence that promotes the indoc theory as opposed to "oh, well BW just screwed everything up." Just like you say we're not right, we can say, with evidence to back it up, that your not right.

And for the record, I put weight into the indoc theory because I believe BioWare isn't stupid, and all in all, it just makes sense. 

[DrFrankenseuss]

If you're gonna believe in the indoctrination theory then you have to leave the possibility open that none of what you see actually reflects anything that is happening in the real world (the stuff going on outside of the Indoctrination dream sequence inside Shepherd's head, or mindlink with Harby, or whatever the hell it is). Maybe Shepherd is already fully indoctrinated and everything you see happening is meaningless. Maybe in reality shepherd is picked up by an Alliance squad and he/she is killing them all and aiding the Reapers to victory. Once you open the can of worms on the indoctrination theory, you're basically making up stuff about the indoctrination process itself.

There's no reason to believe that if someone was being indoctrinated in some mindspace outside of reality that there would be symbols within that space which actually correlates to anything happening in reality. There's no reason to believe that Saren, who was indoctrinated slowly to keep his usefullness, at any point seemed to think he was anywhere but in reality.

Oh yeah, and Bioware said they trashed the indoctrination idea post release. There's that too.

[kwysong]

If bioware wanted us to know about the indoctrination then I suppose Ps3 owners, like myself, fail to grasp the issue since we missed Me1. A 20 minute comic at the start of Me2 is quite forgettable after the 2nd and 3rd game.

[greywardencommander]

DrFrankenseuss wrote...

If you're gonna believe in the indoctrination theory then you have to leave the possibility open that none of what you see actually reflects anything that is happening in the real world (the stuff going on outside of the Indoctrination dream sequence inside Shepherd's head, or mindlink with Harby, or whatever the hell it is). Maybe Shepherd is already fully indoctrinated and everything you see happening is meaningless. Maybe in reality shepherd is picked up by an Alliance squad and he/she is killing them all and aiding the Reapers to victory. Once you open the can of worms on the indoctrination theory, you're basically making up stuff about the indoctrination process itself.

There's no reason to believe that if someone was being indoctrinated in some mindspace outside of reality that there would be symbols within that space which actually correlates to anything happening in reality. There's no reason to believe that Saren, who was indoctrinated slowly to keep his usefullness, at any point seemed to think he was anywhere but in reality.

Oh yeah, and Bioware said they trashed the indoctrination idea post release. There's that too.

IDT is more of a hallucination theory it says nothing after harbingers beam is in reality i.e. he's not doing anything other than lying in the rubble as shown in the secret ending.

As for your second point what they said was it was trashed because of the gameplay mechanic and that the gameplay aspect of being indoctrination was dismissed. That doesn't necessarily mean they dismissed the entire concept of indoctrination just the idea of being indoctrinated in the basis of reality NOT a playout in the mind.

[greywardencommander]

kwysong wrote...

If bioware wanted us to know about the indoctrination then I suppose Ps3 owners, like myself, fail to grasp the issue since we missed Me1. A 20 minute comic at the start of Me2 is quite forgettable after the 2nd and 3rd game.

I've never understood why they didn't just re-release it, I know it was published by Microsoft but there seemed little point in putting ME2 and ME3 across without the first one, if only for the soaking up the lore. As for the theory, maybe they thought the derelict reaper footage of what was happening to them, the dreams, the codex entry (about dreams and hallucinations) etc was enough (perhaps it isn't if it was done deliberately).

regardless of deliberate or not it's the easiest way to release 'correction' dlc without rewriting what happened before and admitting they were wrong.

Here's my post suggesting how they could do it, even taking into account all those that chose control and synthesis social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/10350970
i've pasted it too

In my opinion the only way it would work in terms of the out of game if Indoctrination Theory is true is for the DLC to have always been intended to be free (or at least very cheap).

Also like it or not technically DLC is part of 'ME3' so when they say ME3 will give an ACTUAL ending, they COULD be including the DLC in that. I think they could very well have intended it to 'be obvious' what they were doing, breaking the 4th wall and carrying it on with DLC, but it was poorly executed. MAYBE. After all Casey Hudson said in the app that indoctrination was considered but the gameplay mechanic made that aspect very difficult in terms of controlling Shep but also being controlled by the Reapers. This breaking down the 4th wall and having it like I suggest below, could make it work as Bioware intended.
It's possible the ending is just completely garbage and they thought it was great, the following outlines how, either way, they can make DLC fix the ending without changing anything about the current game (those who love the ending as it is can just not download it if they want surely)

If they did it like this Bioware WOULD NOT have to change the current ending at all, and can claim it was always their intention and most people will be pretty happy and remember it as the biggest twist and breaking the 4th wall in the history of not just gaming, but entertainment. Bioware come across as a company that listens, in a year from now all will be forgiven.

Either way whether intended or not Bioware can make this theory work and save face without also saying uh guys you needed to choose destroy otherwise your Shep is indoctrinated and doesn't appear in the end, here's how.

People point out the flaws in the theory, there are a few of course, but no more, and i'd argue less, than in the sudden space magic ending which was poorly executed with gaping plot holes.

That is UNLESS those seemingly awful flaws were deliberately done to make you realise it wasn't happening anywhere but as a mental representation of Shepard's willpower and fight against the attempted indoctrination after being hit by Harbinger's beam. People also argue that indoctrination doesn't happen like that, so to counter that
a) we don't know what happens in the brain when fighting it
the codex mentions dreams and hallucinations so it's possible and
c) my outline below accounts for the possibility that other than the Rachni Queen noone has ever bested indoctrination thus in theory Shepard can't break it other than temporarily like Saren etc.
although by the same vein his exposure to their technology, the thorian etc may all add up to his already amazing strength of will and make him the first known person to fully resist

They also point that there's nothing to suggest that Shepard was indoctrinated during the series, that's true in ME1 and ME2. That's because, the only possible start of the indoctrination process is after Arrival, 2 days of lying there exposed to a Reaper artifact. After this there are little nods, the dreams, the ocassional growl, the humming etc. However it is not saying that he is fully indoctrinated, more the groundwork has begun (it takes Saren and TIM years to be funny indoctrinated). Also the starchild appears to smirk when you select control, he's won the battle for your mind.

I think you could still have the Indoctrination Theory work regardless of choice (if they decided regardless of whether they intended to or not) by having ending dlc where control and synthesis have you submit to indoctrination (destroy breaking out of it) so you wake up alive and indoctrinated but then at the last minute in a Saren way you are able to temporarily resist it and end the fight and win but the bittersweet part is that your Shepard can be indoctrinated and/or dies, still allowing for a happy ending. Though the happy ending isn't the part people are bothered about, it's the sense of closure and something that MAKES sense, rather than a huge plot device deus ex machine thrown into the end for no apparent reason. In fact it could be possible that without a high enough EMS or Paragon/Renegade/Charm etc you can't break the indoctrination so the Reapers can still win, or you beat Harbinger but the fleet gets wiped out. You could still have the Crucible and the three options can remain control, synthesis and destroy (maybe with this option being a massive off switch essentially for the Reapers alone, or shutting down their defences allowing them to be destroyed, thus HIGH EMS is needed). That way anyone who genuinely likes the idea of control (perhaps a real Renegade) or synthesis (the ultimate solution to prevent geth-quarian like wars perhaps) can still have that.

Wishful thinking maybe but that way the ending DLC could still be fundamentally the same regardless of final choice at current ending, and showing all your squad mates and forces you have in the epic battle, with cutscenes or seeing them fight (like in the DA:O battle) and even having ME2 style tactics that ultimately you can screw up and lose. The exception can be that in the case of carrying over the other two ending scenarios (control and destroy) you can throw off the indoctrination right at the end near Harbinger (maybe the Reapers were intending you to get somewhere and then you resist) like Saren and blow up Harbinger or fight him or something.

THEN you can have the cutscenes with dialogue/text of all that you've saved, showing how your decisions have impacted, the Quarians, the Geth, the Krogan etc as well as if your Shepard survived seeing them as well with your squad mates etc. Or if say the Reapers won have cutscenes showing that etc.

Modifié par greywardencommander, 21 mars 2012 - 04:07 .

[IST]

Drake-Shepard wrote...

TLK Spires wrote...

the current ending doesn't fit, either. because it's *impossible*.

this

we are left to choose between 50 potential plot holes and 5 potential plot holes

i choose 5

I think the "5 or 50" theory has legs. 

[DrFrankenseuss]

greywardencommander wrote...

DrFrankenseuss wrote...

If you're gonna believe in the indoctrination theory then you have to leave the possibility open that none of what you see actually reflects anything that is happening in the real world (the stuff going on outside of the Indoctrination dream sequence inside Shepherd's head, or mindlink with Harby, or whatever the hell it is). Maybe Shepherd is already fully indoctrinated and everything you see happening is meaningless. Maybe in reality shepherd is picked up by an Alliance squad and he/she is killing them all and aiding the Reapers to victory. Once you open the can of worms on the indoctrination theory, you're basically making up stuff about the indoctrination process itself.

There's no reason to believe that if someone was being indoctrinated in some mindspace outside of reality that there would be symbols within that space which actually correlates to anything happening in reality. There's no reason to believe that Saren, who was indoctrinated slowly to keep his usefullness, at any point seemed to think he was anywhere but in reality.

Oh yeah, and Bioware said they trashed the indoctrination idea post release. There's that too.

IDT is more of a hallucination theory it says nothing after harbingers beam is in reality i.e. he's not doing anything other than lying in the rubble as shown in the secret ending.

As for your second point what they said was it was trashed because of the gameplay mechanic and that the gameplay aspect of being indoctrination was dismissed. That doesn't necessarily mean they dismissed the entire concept of indoctrination just the idea of being indoctrinated in the basis of reality NOT a playout in the mind.

So Shep is lying in the rubble and picks a color. If Green or Blue they're indoctrinated. Then what happens? If Red indoctrination fails and if high enough military strength Shep lives, otherwise Shep dies. Then what happens?

Somehow Shep, lying in the rubble of London, gives into or overcomes indoctrination and the Crucible spontaneously triggers?