328 réponses à ce sujet

[Ridwan]

Ouch, more fool me. I'd like to apologise to the original poster for not bothering to click the link. I thought he/she was another poster who only liked "dark" stuff.

[Kreid]

Why does a "hardcore" narrative imply that it is bleak?

However, I 100% agee that the shift in the last 10 minutes is what makes the endings completely confusing. It just doesn't 'feel' right. 

I mean hardcore as in sci-fi genres, is like comparing Alastair Reynold's Revelation Space with Star Wars.

The ending doesn't make sense because Mass Effect is a power trip. You are Commander Shepard, you are unstoppable, you will unite the galaxy and find a way no matter the odds and win in the end. That's what 90% of the trilogy is like, it fits the canon of every light sci-fi Space Opera an hero's journey out there. However, in the last minutes, BioWare changes the game (literally) and the whole Earth mission shifts into realistic hardcore sci-fi novel stuff, Earth is pretty much beyond saving, the Reapers are too much even for the whole Galaxy united and things get bad, fast.

In the the end, Shepard barely manages to accomplish his/her objective and stopping the Reapers has a cost higher than most fans of the series would've expected, tearing the Galaxy apart. Basically we've been denied our power trip, we've let Hollywood fantasy land and we've gone through the bittersweet experience of achieving victory through great effort and sacrifice and that is not what people was expecting.

it's a sudden change of pace people can't wrap their heads around, and nor should they because bioWare implemented it in a less than stellar way. At least we should have had different endings for people who wanted Shepard to triumph against all odds.

[Capeo]

M25105 wrote...

Please excuse the rest of us, for wanting to feel like a damn hero after we killed the bad guys. Clearly we're dumb and don't know anything about good stories.

That's why nihilism is all the rage commercially, right?

Way to miss the point, original poster.

This post is almost as funny as the OP. 

[Ainyan42]

Reiella wrote...

Fair point on the first, the destroy [or even control beam] seems to be the source of the ring of fire.  I tend to consider it primarily as buying shepard more time to get in position/whatnot.  However, one thing I do recall is that War Assets/EMS includes engineering efforts towards the Crucible in the first place, which helps explain why EMS means diddly about the third option being there.  A problem perhaps of too many variables [Ground Force Strength, Fleet Strength, and Engineering Strength] being collapsed into one.  I certainly do see the trouble there .

On the last, it goes back to my earlier remark on tone.  It's a war story against an army of Great Old Ones.

You're right - EMS does include the Crucible-building group. However, in order to achieve the arguably 'best' endings - the one where Shep breathes - you have to also amass a huge army. But that's a whole 'nother peeve that I won't get into right now. Fact of the matter is, though, you put a whole lot of really hard work into that EMS and it really doesn't have a tangible effect on the outcome - especially since it doesn't seem how hard you try, you still watch everyone get their butts handed to them on your way to the Crucible.

And you know, being a war story against an army of Great Old Ones doesn't preclude a heroic (or sensible) ending. Nor does it instantly make the game (or series) dark. That's one of my biggest problems. Mass Effect is not dark. Does it have somber overtones? Oh absolutely. One of the most heartbreaking moments is doing the Rachni quest and finding the letter from Charr to Ereba. I remember going 'But I just got them together!'. There's a metric effton of sadness and solemnity in this game. But those underlying themes of 'choice', 'hope', and 'survival against all [impossible] odds' remain constant - up until the end.

[jbauck]

The Angry One wrote...

I mean really, it has an outright victory. It has triumphant music. It has the hero rising from the ashes in a completely cliche manner.
This is not what Mass Effect is about, Mass Effect is dark and grim. Happy endings have no place in this very dark and utterly not inspiring universe.

www.youtube.com/watch

And now you can see why Mass Effect cannot have happy endings ever.

Thank you for this ... in my head, every time someone says something along the lines of "but of >course< it had a downer ending ... it's so dark and tragic, what were you thinking?" I thought of this ...

There's just no argument in existence that I will ever agree with as to why Shepard standing on Harbinger's corpse isn't one of the available >options< for an ending.  Full circle ... let's wrap this story up full circle ...

[Ridwan]

Capeo wrote...

M25105 wrote...

Please excuse the rest of us, for wanting to feel like a damn hero after we killed the bad guys. Clearly we're dumb and don't know anything about good stories.

That's why nihilism is all the rage commercially, right?

Way to miss the point, original poster.

This post is almost as funny as the OP. 

Yeah, I'll admit I didn't bother to click the youtube link  Already apologised.

[DarthSyphilis59]

Orthodox Infidel wrote...

Bumping this due to the awesome sarcasm factor.

YES!!!

[cyrrant]

I pulled it out into a separate window so I could watch it all over again while I scanned the thread. It's just so fulfilling, and now my heart hurts because of how it all turned out.

Our Choices Should Matter - Hold the Line

[Zardoc]

M25105 wrote...

Capeo wrote...

M25105 wrote...

Please excuse the rest of us, for wanting to feel like a damn hero after we killed the bad guys. Clearly we're dumb and don't know anything about good stories.

That's why nihilism is all the rage commercially, right?

Way to miss the point, original poster.

This post is almost as funny as the OP. 

Yeah, I'll admit I didn't bother to click the youtube link  Already apologised.

Everyone makes mistakes.

[Athlonis1]

See, this is why everyone hates the ME3 ending. It does not correlate with the rest of the game and series. I was fully expecting Shepard to die. However I was expecting Shepard to die defending whatever control console or other such device that activated the crucible. Y'know have the bloody thing take some time to fire.

Also another point. Why in the seven hells were there no reaper forces in the citadel? Were the Reapers really so stupid to leave the citadel completely unmanned? Seriously?

Modifié par Athlonis1, 21 mars 2012 - 03:16 .

[ReachEtaruN74]

The Angry One wrote...

I mean really, it has an outright victory. It has triumphant music. It has the hero rising from the ashes in a completely cliche manner.
This is not what Mass Effect is about, Mass Effect is dark and grim. Happy endings have no place in this very dark and utterly not inspiring universe.

www.youtube.com/watch

And now you can see why Mass Effect cannot have happy endings ever.

For BW to herald ME as a "choice driven story telling" experience and then give us three buttons doesn't really fit.

They should have had that ending as well as 15 or more unique endings some of which should be dark. They would all be bittersweet.

At the very least, if it only had one ending (which it does) it should at least make sense (which it doesn't).

ME1 and ME2 had to have at least mostly congruent endings so that they could continue the series, they don't have to do that for ME3 and they should've taken full advantage of that.

Modifié par ReachEtaruN74, 21 mars 2012 - 03:19 .

[Thornne]

Yeah, what a crap ending on that was on ME1. Where is the speculation?!? IT TELLS YOU EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENED AFTERWARDS, AND WHY!

Who would want that?

[Reiella]

Ainyan42 wrote...

And you know, being a war story against an army of Great Old Ones doesn't preclude a heroic (or sensible) ending. Nor does it instantly make the game (or series) dark. That's one of my biggest problems. Mass Effect is not dark. Does it have somber overtones? Oh absolutely. One of the most heartbreaking moments is doing the Rachni quest and finding the letter from Charr to Ereba. I remember going 'But I just got them together!'. There's a metric effton of sadness and solemnity in this game. But those underlying themes of 'choice', 'hope', and 'survival against all [impossible] odds' remain constant - up until the end.

Well against GOOs, yes, it does preclude a heroic ending, you have to either sacrifice the integrity of the GOOs or the heroism.  A balance of plot contrievance and grim cost.

I will say I still see your three themes through the ending though.  And I have a real hard time not seeing hope with Buzz's line at the end.

[xxLDZxx]

Thornne wrote...

Yeah, what a crap ending on that was on ME1. Where is the speculation?!? IT TELLS YOU EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENED AFTERWARDS, AND WHY!

Who would want that?

because they feed on our tears,

if we get happy there liefs make no sense more and they have to vanish in the shadows.

[Taldek]

Call me old fashioned but, yeah i do want that.

[CronoDragoon]

Yup, Mass Effect has always been hollywood. Read a thread a few days ago from someone claiming ME was about "making tough choices" and that "there was never an easy way out." I will give them the benefit of the doubt and assume something was blocking the left of the dialogue wheel on their TV.

[TheShinySword]

Man, of course I don't want an ending like the one you posted, there's nothing for me to speculate about! What am I going to do if I'm merely satisfied with the conclusion? I need speculation!

[Ainyan42]

Reiella wrote...
Well against GOOs, yes, it does preclude a heroic ending, you have to either sacrifice the integrity of the GOOs or the heroism.  A balance of plot contrievance and grim cost.

I will say I still see your three themes through the ending though.  And I have a real hard time not seeing hope with Buzz's line at the end.

I see no problem sacrificing the integrity of the GOOs - after all, they've been proven as imperfect at numerous times throughout the series, in such a way that including a fatal flaw (including one of pride, which they have already exhibited in excess) to be exploited is not outside the realm of possibility. As much as people like to claim that Bioware wrote themselves into a corner with the overwhelming power of the Reapers, the fact is, they were not without exploitable, and deadly, flaw,  which could have been used to great effect. Could it have ever been a perfect ending? Absolutely not. People would have died - whole worlds destroyed - galactic civilization in near-apocolyptic disarray. Those are not hallmarks of a happy ending; they can, however, be hallmarks of a powerful ending.

I saw nothing of choice in the ending except the matter of 'pick your poison'. Keep in mind, my Shepard is (always) a silver-tongued paragon for whom each of those choices was soul-rending. No matter what she chose, she was damned - emotionally and mentally, if nothing else. However, considering she never had the one choice that was ALWAYS open before (to speak her mind), I feel that all that was offered was the illusion of choice. Additionally, since she was never given a chance to speak up and fight back against the Catalyst's flawed logic and flawed choices, she was never offered even the chance to overcome the impossible odds. And I'm sorry - I felt the Stargazer was nothing more and nothing less than insulting. And I understand you consider it 'hopeful', but all I saw was either the absolute destruction of galactic civilization so completely that spaceflight is nothing more than a myth, or some old man and some kid on a world where Liara seeded her time capsule thinking Shepard and everything she did is just some 'bedtime story' - the worst mockery of her sacrifice through all three games.

[VoloVersio]

Taldek wrote...

Call me old fashioned but, yeah i do want that.

This is why I'm glad you didn't write the game.

[Ultra Prism]

I don't play video games to receive dark and unhappy endings ... then tell me what ME1 and ME2 endings were heroic ... yes I want to be hero because I am not one ... Shepard is so I am glad until ME3 ending ... seriously you are grim person Angry One

[Taldek]

VoloVersio wrote...

Taldek wrote...

Call me old fashioned but, yeah i do want that.

This is why I'm glad you didn't write the game.

Had i wrote the game i would've given people the choice

[Handren]

Taldek wrote...

VoloVersio wrote...

Taldek wrote...

Call me old fashioned but, yeah i do want that.

This is why I'm glad you didn't write the game.

Had i wrote the game i would've given people the choice

Same here. I would not have forced you into a happy/sad/dark/light ending. I would have let you CHOOSE what type of ending you wanted. ME1 and ME2 did this, why can't ME3?

[JustSaber]

What is this garbage?!?  This isn't ART!  I can understand it!  Away with it!




An excellent and concise point, OP.

[Chernaya]

Just because the game has dark moments doesn't mean the ending has to be dark.

The game has funny, romantic, and nice moments as well. The ending can be any of these things, or all.

It doesn't have to be limited to tragic, and tragic doesn't necessarily mean "dark".

[yoshibb]

The Angry One wrote...

I mean really, it has an outright victory. It has triumphant music. It has the hero rising from the ashes in a completely cliche manner.
This is not what Mass Effect is about, Mass Effect is dark and grim. Happy endings have no place in this very dark and utterly not inspiring universe.

www.youtube.com/watch

And now you can see why Mass Effect cannot have happy endings ever.

I know right? How could something like this fit into something so grim and dark as Mass Effect? Here's another example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch

My God, how unrealistic is this tripe?!