147 réponses à ce sujet

[Vromrig]

longtimecoming00 wrote...

Renew81 wrote...



Mordin FTW.

More like Mordin needs another taste of my Carnifex.

Sabotage...

[moater boat]

alx119 wrote...

Um, I don't fly the ship with my feet Commander?

I still remember him saying that and thinking to myself "That is the stupidest excuse I have ever heard."

[SandTrout]

I've brought this up before back when we only had ME1 and 2 to discuss.

Beyond being boarded, all crew needs to be capable of performing a damage-control function, and someone with a disability like Joker's is a liability to everyone.

[Shaoken]

moater boat wrote...

wathc me tyep wrote...

He's the best of the best? You're sitting in a chair most of the time anyway, are they expecting the pilot to go fighting?

Yes, I am. He is in the military after all. If you are in the military, you have to know how to fight. You never know when you may need to actually engage in combat.

You are assuming that military tradition is the same in the centuries between now and ME1. Or that Joker has had no military training when he's been shown to have used a rifle in the series.

[s.nebulous]

Joker reminded me of the book Starship Troopers. In the book, everyone had a right to join the military no matter what. From what I remember it is never stated, but maybe there is a similar policy for the alliance military

[moater boat]

The Angry One wrote...

moater boat wrote...

sistersafetypin wrote...

Like Joker said in ME1... He's still the best pilot in the fleet. So no

That's another load of crap. How many G's can his frail body withstand? No way someone with a body like that could actually be a pilot.

Uh. You do realise without a form of inertial dampner, nobody can withstand going to FTL velocities.

That is a good point, but what about normal manuevering in atmosphere. Even that would cause too much stress on his weak frame. Regardless, high G's is just one of the many reasons that someone with a condition like that should be allowed in the military.

[Ryuukishi]

Joker being back in the Alliance after joining Cerberus is a *good* example of a plot hole that the game just kind of glossed over. He's a great character, and he belongs on the Normandy with Shepard, period. No big deal to suspend a little disbelief to get that to happen.

[Phearmonger]

movieguyabw wrote...

Wait... this reminds me... how the hell did Joker get back in the alliance? Unlike Dr. Chakwas, he actually *did* join Cerberus.

I actually thought the same thing. When he talks to Shepard in ME2 right before the new Normandy reveal he basically admitted to being a mercenary of sorts, changing sides to a very shady organization for what would essentially be impatience. I was actually surprised the Alliance would let him back in.

[Kanner]

In the future, you can fail every possible media exam imaginable and still be a pilot.

Oh, and they can't cure rare genetic diseases either, even while manufacturing a plague that reduces an entire species fertility rate to 1/1000th of previous.

The medicine in this game is often amusing.

[longtimecoming00]

Phearmonger wrote...

movieguyabw wrote...

Wait... this reminds me... how the hell did Joker get back in the alliance? Unlike Dr. Chakwas, he actually *did* join Cerberus.

I actually thought the same thing. When he talks to Shepard in ME2 right before the new Normandy reveal he basically admitted to being a mercenary of sorts, changing sides to a very shady organization for what would essentially be impatience. I was actually surprised the Alliance would let him back in.

Because EDI acted like a VI who only obeyed commands if Joker was the one giving it.

Modifié par longtimecoming00, 21 mars 2012 - 03:28 .

[Shaoken]

moater boat wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

moater boat wrote...

sistersafetypin wrote...

Like Joker said in ME1... He's still the best pilot in the fleet. So no

That's another load of crap. How many G's can his frail body withstand? No way someone with a body like that could actually be a pilot.

Uh. You do realise without a form of inertial dampner, nobody can withstand going to FTL velocities.

That is a good point, but what about normal manuevering in atmosphere. Even that would cause too much stress on his weak frame. Regardless, high G's is just one of the many reasons that someone with a condition like that should be allowed in the military.

Inertial Dampners using Mass Effect Fields. There is no reason why they would be offline while in a planet's atmosphere, the Normandy would still have to avoid anti-air fire or enemy ships.

And again, Joker can hold a rifle, he's been through the Alliance flight training (which you are foolishly assuming to be exactly the same in terms of today's terrestial militaries), and he is the best pilot in the Alliance. What's the problem? He passed whatever tests the Alliance Navy has in place.

[moater boat]

Vromrig wrote...

VirtualSoldier27 wrote...

everyone in the military goes through the same 9 week basic training,doesnt matter if youre Infantry,support,medical or logistics, you get trained in everything from assualt rifles and grenades to hand to hand combat, especially in world where there is no such thing has a front line anymore, a soldier could go from mopping a base mess hall,to returning fire in combat in a split second.

granted this is a fictional futuristic universe, but it seems like the human alliance is based off of todays militaries.

Speculative fiction, inspired by Heinlein.  Suggests possibility of non-peak physical fitness for some militaries.  Women preferred for piloting in Starship Troopers.  Can't field weapons or packs as efficiently.  Not acclimated to heavy fighting.  Still efficient pilots.

Space not the same as marine warfare.  Plausible there are differences.  Evidence they are not the same: cripple flies the Normandy.

I don't think ANYTHING in Starship Troopers suggests non-peak physical fitness. The Mobile Infantry wash out rate is somewhere around 90%, and there is no reason to assume that Carmen, or any other pilot in that fictional universe, is not in good physical condition. Granted, pilots are probably more selected for their skill and spatial reasoning, but there if people are washing out of MI for academic reasons, there is no reason to think that pilots wouldn't be washing out of flight school for physical reasons.

[Shaoken]

Ryuukishi wrote...

Joker being back in the Alliance after joining Cerberus is a *good* example of a plot hole that the game just kind of glossed over. He's a great character, and he belongs on the Normandy with Shepard, period. No big deal to suspend a little disbelief to get that to happen.

*sigh* It is not a plot hole, they explained it in the game; Joker was brought onboard because EDI (who was posing as a VI) tricked the Alliance into thinking that she only responded to his commands, and that the Normandy retrofit was headed by Anderson who trusted Joker, and was planning on making the Normandy his command ship and obviously keeping Joker as the pilot.

[moater boat]

Simpfan wrote...

Because its a video game.
Its not real.

Suspension of disbelief people.

I'm sure you would complain if the Normandy was piloted by a Unicorn.

[WhooMovingTarget]

VigilancePress wrote...

Speaking of how amazing Limb Replacements are in today's medical field, check out this really cool TED talk.

http://www.tedmed.co...EgVXYK8.blogger

God durn it, I love TED talks.

[moater boat]

Shaoken wrote...

As stated, the ship has inertial dampners to stop the entire crew from turning into a fine red paste when they drop out of FTL.

In 2 Shepard doesn't have to rescue Joker because Joker's condition prevents him from escaping, he has to rescue him because Joker is refusing to abandon the Normandy. He even states in ME3 that he could have escaped on his own but refused to, which is why Shepard died the first time.

As for him getting the job in the first place, again he went through flight school, and passed at the head of his glass. He can also fire a weapon, so that handles that aspect. You guys keep forgetting that this is a space ship; devices so complex that they put anything we have today to shame. So you can use today's standards for armed forces to say what a future Alliance pilot would have to know to work on the ship. The more complex the requirements for operating the ship, the less room there is for more learning in other areas.

I'm not using today's standards for the armed forces. I'm using the standard that has been in existance since the begining of organized militaries. Some things change, I will agree, but warfare doesn't change as much as some people may think. For all the changes that have happened to war in the past 10,000 years, it all boils down to sticking a piece of metal into your enemy as forcefully as possible, before he does it to you. As long as wars are won by inflicting physical damage on an enemy. Those who fight wars must be both able to resist damage, and inflict it themselves as best as possible.

[Mutant Dwarf]

Joker being back in the Alliance after joining Cerberus is a *good* example of a plot hole that the game just kind of glossed over. He's a great character, and he belongs on the Normandy with Shepard, period. No big deal to suspend a little disbelief to get that to happen.

This is actually dealt with in the game. Joker wasn't 'let back in' to the Alliance. Along with EDI, he stole the Normandy when the Reapers began their attack on Earth. I'm guessing the pending courtmartial for piracy would be quickly squashed by Shepard's Spectre status if anyone was silly enough to bring it up.

[Red Dust]

This has less to do with his disability and more to do with the fact that he went AWOL to join a terrorist group.

Seriously.

[moater boat]

Shaoken wrote...

moater boat wrote...

wathc me tyep wrote...

He's the best of the best? You're sitting in a chair most of the time anyway, are they expecting the pilot to go fighting?

Yes, I am. He is in the military after all. If you are in the military, you have to know how to fight. You never know when you may need to actually engage in combat.

You are assuming that military tradition is the same in the centuries between now and ME1. Or that Joker has had no military training when he's been shown to have used a rifle in the series.

Yes, I am assuming that in spite of all the changes over the centuries between now and ME1, wars are still fought by the precise application of controlled violence, because that is exactly what we see in the game. Regarding the rifle, it shows him using it, but that makes no sense. Shooting an assault rifle should have broken his fragile shoulder. Don't tell me that when you saw him shooting it at the end of ME2 your first thought was "Oh yeah, Joker could totally do that. I believe it" Because I know that isn't what I thought.

[moater boat]

s.nebulous wrote...

Joker reminded me of the book Starship Troopers. In the book, everyone had a right to join the military no matter what. From what I remember it is never stated, but maybe there is a similar policy for the alliance military

Yes, but the washout rates were crazy high.

[Shaoken]

moater boat wrote...

Shaoken wrote...

As stated, the ship has inertial dampners to stop the entire crew from turning into a fine red paste when they drop out of FTL.

In 2 Shepard doesn't have to rescue Joker because Joker's condition prevents him from escaping, he has to rescue him because Joker is refusing to abandon the Normandy. He even states in ME3 that he could have escaped on his own but refused to, which is why Shepard died the first time.

As for him getting the job in the first place, again he went through flight school, and passed at the head of his glass. He can also fire a weapon, so that handles that aspect. You guys keep forgetting that this is a space ship; devices so complex that they put anything we have today to shame. So you can use today's standards for armed forces to say what a future Alliance pilot would have to know to work on the ship. The more complex the requirements for operating the ship, the less room there is for more learning in other areas.

I'm not using today's standards for the armed forces. I'm using the standard that has been in existance since the begining of organized militaries. Some things change, I will agree, but warfare doesn't change as much as some people may think. For all the changes that have happened to war in the past 10,000 years, it all boils down to sticking a piece of metal into your enemy as forcefully as possible, before he does it to you. As long as wars are won by inflicting physical damage on an enemy. Those who fight wars must be both able to resist damage, and inflict it themselves as best as possible.

Really?

Several thousand years ago the Spartans killed any child with the slighest defect . Back then wars were fought to completely destroy the other army. Today, wars are more precise, with standing armies engaging insurgency forces, and conditions that would have disqualified people 100 years ago are now no longer barriers due to medical advances.

ANd you keep ignoring the main point; Joker can fire a rifle. There, bam. Issue solved; he has demonstrated he can weild a weapon in the event of a boarding party.

[Mutant Dwarf]

In any case, Moter Boat, the likely thing is that the military's standards have changed in the hundred-fifty or so years between now and when ME1 starts. Maybe the Alliance doesn't think boarding actions are important enough to require all crew members to be able to fight them off. Maybe the Alliance has specific physical requirements for each job, and 'pilot' is one where the requirement is 'be an awesome pilot and capable of performing piloting duties; don't bother training for boarding ops or damage control except for slapping omni-gel on anything that breaks'. Hell, maybe Joker just got special permission to join the alliance because he's a test pilot, not an actual combat pilot, and was 'grandfathered in' to the Normandy's combat crew after the test run, because he's so damned awesome (and the Normandy pretty much stops being an Alliance warship after Shepard becomes a Spectre).

[Shaoken]

moater boat wrote...

Shaoken wrote...

moater boat wrote...

wathc me tyep wrote...

He's the best of the best? You're sitting in a chair most of the time anyway, are they expecting the pilot to go fighting?

Yes, I am. He is in the military after all. If you are in the military, you have to know how to fight. You never know when you may need to actually engage in combat.

You are assuming that military tradition is the same in the centuries between now and ME1. Or that Joker has had no military training when he's been shown to have used a rifle in the series.

Yes, I am assuming that in spite of all the changes over the centuries between now and ME1, wars are still fought by the precise application of controlled violence, because that is exactly what we see in the game. Regarding the rifle, it shows him using it, but that makes no sense. Shooting an assault rifle should have broken his fragile shoulder. Don't tell me that when you saw him shooting it at the end of ME2 your first thought was "Oh yeah, Joker could totally do that. I believe it" Because I know that isn't what I thought.

One, there are treatments for his condition. Two, recoil on these weapons can be reduced through that little thing calld "Mass Effect fields" that the entire setting runs on. Three, he was taking short, controlled bursts instead of full auto.

EDIT: As an arguement against "everyone must have x weeks in basic training or they can't join the alliance", look at the Drive Core required on the Normandy. That is an incredibly advanced piece of technology that is more complex than anything existing today. The penality of screwing that up would wipe out a ship that costs more than the entirity of the US' Navy today. What is the higher priority? That the engineers have passed nine weeks of basic training and are in peak fighting condition? Or that they can keep the drive working and not blowing up the ship and anyone on it?

You're taking a standard for armies and applying it to a type of orgnaisation that so far exists entirely in fiction.

Modifié par Shaoken, 21 mars 2012 - 03:40 .

[moater boat]

Ryuukishi wrote...

Joker being back in the Alliance after joining Cerberus is a *good* example of a plot hole that the game just kind of glossed over. He's a great character, and he belongs on the Normandy with Shepard, period. No big deal to suspend a little disbelief to get that to happen.

Actually if you talk to EDI, that part is explained. He was under guard by the two marines that guard the war room, but EDI and Joker convinced the Normandy overhaul team that EDI would only respond to Joker's voice, so Joker was kept in custody but frequently onboard the Normandy.

[jkflipflopDAO]

longtimecoming00 wrote...

wathc me tyep wrote...

He's the best of the best? You're sitting in a chair most of the time anyway, are they expecting the pilot to go fighting?

If the ship gets boarded, then yes.

In today's military, everyone from cooks to mechanics receives basic combat training so they'd know what to do in a firefight.  Can't see that part changing just because they're in space.  And since Joker can't even fire a gun without breaking his ribs, that will automatically disqualify him from any military service, even if he just sits in a chair all day long.

LOL I'm sure boardings happen all the time in space 

Modifié par jkflipflopDAO, 21 mars 2012 - 03:39 .