147 réponses à ce sujet

[Mutant Dwarf]

moater boat wrote...

Yes, I am assuming that in spite of all the changes over the centuries between now and ME1, wars are still fought by the precise application of controlled violence, because that is exactly what we see in the game. Regarding the rifle, it shows him using it, but that makes no sense. Shooting an assault rifle should have broken his fragile shoulder. Don't tell me that when you saw him shooting it at the end of ME2 your first thought was "Oh yeah, Joker could totally do that. I believe it" Because I know that isn't what I thought.

Ah; you're assuming Joker's condition is actually worse than it is. It isn't as bad as all that. Joker's Joker - he exaggerates, easily and often. When he says he fractured his thumb on the mute button, he's joking.

In any case, I see no reason why he couldn't fire an assault rifle, especially after Cerberus upgrades him.

[Ticondurus]

All he needs is a chair and he's fine. Problem solved.

[s.nebulous]

moater boat wrote...

s.nebulous wrote...

Joker reminded me of the book Starship Troopers. In the book, everyone had a right to join the military no matter what. From what I remember it is never stated, but maybe there is a similar policy for the alliance military

Yes, but the washout rates were crazy high.

Sure, I don’t recall everyone being guaranteed a specific job.  I’m not arguing that joker could be in the mobile infantry.

[Lady Jess]

teknoarcanist wrote...

In the actual military, all field operators at every level are expected to be in fighting condition. Even the cook at an operating base is capable of stripping a rifle and all that business.

But yknow, it's the future, etc etc.

We have soldiers with prosthetic limbs deploying to Afghanistan, and still passing army Physical Fitness requirements, my best friend's husband being one of them, lost a leg in Iraq back in 06.  And that is present day, so I'm just gonna venture a guess that in the future things are a bit more lax, especially in the case of a top notch pilot, best of the best, who according to Doc Chakwas is on medications, presumably to manage the condition anyhow.

[Shaoken]

And he trained on Alliance Fighters, which are one-man craft. Why do they need to use a gun? They can't get boarded, they're fighting in space so there's no chance of them needing it to survive behind enemy lines, and as continuily pointed out Joker knows how to fire weapons.

[moater boat]

Mutant Dwarf wrote...

In any case, Moter Boat, the likely thing is that the military's standards have changed in the hundred-fifty or so years between now and when ME1 starts. Maybe the Alliance doesn't think boarding actions are important enough to require all crew members to be able to fight them off. Maybe the Alliance has specific physical requirements for each job, and 'pilot' is one where the requirement is 'be an awesome pilot and capable of performing piloting duties; don't bother training for boarding ops or damage control except for slapping omni-gel on anything that breaks'. Hell, maybe Joker just got special permission to join the alliance because he's a test pilot, not an actual combat pilot, and was 'grandfathered in' to the Normandy's combat crew after the test run, because he's so damned awesome (and the Normandy pretty much stops being an Alliance warship after Shepard becomes a Spectre).

"Maybe the Alliance doesn't think boarding actions are important enough to require all crew members to be able to fight them off."

Very, very doubtful. This would be a gaping hole in fleet defense.

"don't bother training for boarding ops or damage control except for slapping omni-gel on anything that breaks"

And how is he supposed to do that when he broke his arms falling out of his chair when a boarding party shuttle hits the Normandy?

I'm not denying that he is an awesome pilot, but does the alliance allow every disabled person a chance to go through flight school in hopes of the 1 in a million chance that they are a prodogy?

[s.nebulous]

I am a little confused on this argument; obliviously the Alliance Military does in fact allow Joker to become a pilot. Therefore the rules are different from Marines of today.

[moater boat]

Shaoken wrote...

moater boat wrote...

Shaoken wrote...

As stated, the ship has inertial dampners to stop the entire crew from turning into a fine red paste when they drop out of FTL.

In 2 Shepard doesn't have to rescue Joker because Joker's condition prevents him from escaping, he has to rescue him because Joker is refusing to abandon the Normandy. He even states in ME3 that he could have escaped on his own but refused to, which is why Shepard died the first time.

As for him getting the job in the first place, again he went through flight school, and passed at the head of his glass. He can also fire a weapon, so that handles that aspect. You guys keep forgetting that this is a space ship; devices so complex that they put anything we have today to shame. So you can use today's standards for armed forces to say what a future Alliance pilot would have to know to work on the ship. The more complex the requirements for operating the ship, the less room there is for more learning in other areas.

I'm not using today's standards for the armed forces. I'm using the standard that has been in existance since the begining of organized militaries. Some things change, I will agree, but warfare doesn't change as much as some people may think. For all the changes that have happened to war in the past 10,000 years, it all boils down to sticking a piece of metal into your enemy as forcefully as possible, before he does it to you. As long as wars are won by inflicting physical damage on an enemy. Those who fight wars must be both able to resist damage, and inflict it themselves as best as possible.

Really?

Several thousand years ago the Spartans killed any child with the slighest defect . Back then wars were fought to completely destroy the other army. Today, wars are more precise, with standing armies engaging insurgency forces, and conditions that would have disqualified people 100 years ago are now no longer barriers due to medical advances.

ANd you keep ignoring the main point; Joker can fire a rifle. There, bam. Issue solved; he has demonstrated he can weild a weapon in the event of a boarding party.

"conditions that would have disqualified people 100 years ago are now no longer barriers due to medical advances."

It's actually the complete opposite. Military recruiting standards continue to trend upward and have been doing so for centuries.

[Shaoken]

moater boat wrote...

Shaoken wrote...

moater boat wrote...

Shaoken wrote...

As stated, the ship has inertial dampners to stop the entire crew from turning into a fine red paste when they drop out of FTL.

In 2 Shepard doesn't have to rescue Joker because Joker's condition prevents him from escaping, he has to rescue him because Joker is refusing to abandon the Normandy. He even states in ME3 that he could have escaped on his own but refused to, which is why Shepard died the first time.

As for him getting the job in the first place, again he went through flight school, and passed at the head of his glass. He can also fire a weapon, so that handles that aspect. You guys keep forgetting that this is a space ship; devices so complex that they put anything we have today to shame. So you can use today's standards for armed forces to say what a future Alliance pilot would have to know to work on the ship. The more complex the requirements for operating the ship, the less room there is for more learning in other areas.

I'm not using today's standards for the armed forces. I'm using the standard that has been in existance since the begining of organized militaries. Some things change, I will agree, but warfare doesn't change as much as some people may think. For all the changes that have happened to war in the past 10,000 years, it all boils down to sticking a piece of metal into your enemy as forcefully as possible, before he does it to you. As long as wars are won by inflicting physical damage on an enemy. Those who fight wars must be both able to resist damage, and inflict it themselves as best as possible.

Really?

Several thousand years ago the Spartans killed any child with the slighest defect . Back then wars were fought to completely destroy the other army. Today, wars are more precise, with standing armies engaging insurgency forces, and conditions that would have disqualified people 100 years ago are now no longer barriers due to medical advances.

ANd you keep ignoring the main point; Joker can fire a rifle. There, bam. Issue solved; he has demonstrated he can weild a weapon in the event of a boarding party.

"conditions that would have disqualified people 100 years ago are now no longer barriers due to medical advances."

It's actually the complete opposite. Military recruiting standards continue to trend upward and have been doing so for centuries.

Really? Twenty years ago being homosexual disqualified you from military service, now that's no longer true. As someone else said in this very thread people with prothestic limbs are on active service, that wasn't true twenty years ago either.

In fact last time I checked US military recruting standards went down because they couldn't get enough new recruits.

[moater boat]

Shaoken wrote...

moater boat wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

moater boat wrote...

sistersafetypin wrote...

Like Joker said in ME1... He's still the best pilot in the fleet. So no

That's another load of crap. How many G's can his frail body withstand? No way someone with a body like that could actually be a pilot.

Uh. You do realise without a form of inertial dampner, nobody can withstand going to FTL velocities.

That is a good point, but what about normal manuevering in atmosphere. Even that would cause too much stress on his weak frame. Regardless, high G's is just one of the many reasons that someone with a condition like that should be allowed in the military.

Inertial Dampners using Mass Effect Fields. There is no reason why they would be offline while in a planet's atmosphere, the Normandy would still have to avoid anti-air fire or enemy ships.

And again, Joker can hold a rifle, he's been through the Alliance flight training (which you are foolishly assuming to be exactly the same in terms of today's terrestial militaries), and he is the best pilot in the Alliance. What's the problem? He passed whatever tests the Alliance Navy has in place.

There are any number of reasons that inertial dampeners would be offline during normal, in atmosphere manuevering. For example, a pilot needs to be able to feel inertia to fly properly. Remember Joker saying EXACTLY THAT while talking about why he doesn't use an exoskeleton? Furthermore inertial dampeners would make simple acts like walking around and carrying things almost impossible. Your entire sense of movement would be thrown off. Obviously any sort of innertial dampening device would simply keep the G's experienced within the ranges acceptable to a NORMAL human.

I am not foolishly assuming anything. I don't do that because I am not a fool. I am actually rediculously smart, and very knowledgable about a wide variety of subjects, but that is beside the point. Regardless of whether I am smart or a fool, there is no concievable reason that the alliance would be recruiting people that are so incredibly disabled.

Also your suggestion that he performed so well in flight training is mute, as that wouldn't happen until AFTER he was accepted into the alliance.

[Shaoken]

moater boat wrote...


"Maybe the Alliance doesn't think boarding actions are important enough to require all crew members to be able to fight them off."

Very, very doubtful. This would be a gaping hole in fleet defense.

No, because as the Collector attack in 2 showed, there was still plenty of people with combat training to repell boarders. Realistically you couldn't have everyone drop what they are doing and fight off boarders; the action outside of the ship doesn't stop and there are important tasks that need to be taken care of.

And how is he supposed to do that when he broke his arms falling out of his chair when a boarding party shuttle hits the Normandy?

Inertia Dampners. Not that in all the times the Normandy has been hit by things with a lot more force than a boarding shuttle he's never once fallen out of his chair?

I'm not denying that he is an awesome pilot, but does the alliance allow every disabled person a chance to go through flight school in hopes of the 1 in a million chance that they are a prodogy?

Like Joker says, he doesn't fly the ship with his feet. In fact there was once a brilliant fighter ace who lost both legs in an accident and kept flying for the rest of that war. Again, flying a ship or a fighter does not require you to fight the enemy with your hands, nor does it open you up to situations where such skills are nessicary. If need be Joker can pick up a rifle and fire it, what more does he need to do on a space ship surronded by vacuum?

[moater boat]

Lady Jess wrote...

teknoarcanist wrote...

In the actual military, all field operators at every level are expected to be in fighting condition. Even the cook at an operating base is capable of stripping a rifle and all that business.

But yknow, it's the future, etc etc.

We have soldiers with prosthetic limbs deploying to Afghanistan, and still passing army Physical Fitness requirements, my best friend's husband being one of them, lost a leg in Iraq back in 06.  And that is present day, so I'm just gonna venture a guess that in the future things are a bit more lax, especially in the case of a top notch pilot, best of the best, who according to Doc Chakwas is on medications, presumably to manage the condition anyhow.

The difference is that all those people with prosthetic limbs are already trained military personnel. It is deemed that the slight handicap they face is not worth both the loss of experience they already have and the effect of  morale on the military as a whole.

What we are talking about with joker, is a large group of kids trying to get into flight school, and only a handful are picked. For what possible reason could you see the people who make that decision picking someone with such an obvious weakness? It makes no sense. To them he isn't "The best helmsman in the fleet" He is a sickly little kid who, in spite of a great deal of latent talent, could very well cripple himself for life if he just trips while walking across the stage at graduation.

[Shaoken]

moater boat wrote...

There are any number of reasons that inertial dampeners would be offline during normal, in atmosphere manuevering. For example, a pilot needs to be able to feel inertia to fly properly. Remember Joker saying EXACTLY THAT while talking about why he doesn't use an exoskeleton? Furthermore inertial dampeners would make simple acts like walking around and carrying things almost impossible. Your entire sense of movement would be thrown off. Obviously any sort of innertial dampening device would simply keep the G's experienced within the ranges acceptable to a NORMAL human.

I am not foolishly assuming anything. I don't do that because I am not a fool. I am actually rediculously smart, and very knowledgable about a wide variety of subjects, but that is beside the point. Regardless of whether I am smart or a fool, there is no concievable reason that the alliance would be recruiting people that are so incredibly disabled.

Also your suggestion that he performed so well in flight training is mute, as that wouldn't happen until AFTER he was accepted into the alliance.

Again, you're making the assumption that all branches of the Alliance Military follow the exact same standards. Obviously the standards for joining the Navy would be different from joining the ground-side forces. 

[moater boat]

Shaoken wrote...

moater boat wrote...

Shaoken wrote...

moater boat wrote...

wathc me tyep wrote...

He's the best of the best? You're sitting in a chair most of the time anyway, are they expecting the pilot to go fighting?

Yes, I am. He is in the military after all. If you are in the military, you have to know how to fight. You never know when you may need to actually engage in combat.

You are assuming that military tradition is the same in the centuries between now and ME1. Or that Joker has had no military training when he's been shown to have used a rifle in the series.

Yes, I am assuming that in spite of all the changes over the centuries between now and ME1, wars are still fought by the precise application of controlled violence, because that is exactly what we see in the game. Regarding the rifle, it shows him using it, but that makes no sense. Shooting an assault rifle should have broken his fragile shoulder. Don't tell me that when you saw him shooting it at the end of ME2 your first thought was "Oh yeah, Joker could totally do that. I believe it" Because I know that isn't what I thought.

One, there are treatments for his condition. Two, recoil on these weapons can be reduced through that little thing calld "Mass Effect fields" that the entire setting runs on. Three, he was taking short, controlled bursts instead of full auto.

EDIT: As an arguement against "everyone must have x weeks in basic training or they can't join the alliance", look at the Drive Core required on the Normandy. That is an incredibly advanced piece of technology that is more complex than anything existing today. The penality of screwing that up would wipe out a ship that costs more than the entirity of the US' Navy today. What is the higher priority? That the engineers have passed nine weeks of basic training and are in peak fighting condition? Or that they can keep the drive working and not blowing up the ship and anyone on it?

You're taking a standard for armies and applying it to a type of orgnaisation that so far exists entirely in fiction.

Currently every Nimitz class Aircraft Carrier in service with the U.S. Navy uses two nuclear reactors for power. The penalty anyone operating those is responsible for a 4 billion dollar warship and over 5000 crewmembers. Those operators are required to meet the same physical fitness requirements as every other sailor in the Navy.

I am not taking my standard for armies and applying it to a fictional organization. I am taking my firsthand knowledge of warships, from my six years in the navy, and applying it to something VERY similar.

Say what you will, but Jokers condition got Shepard killed at the beginning of ME2, almost allowed the Normandy to be lost to the collectors, and depending on how ME2 played out, may have gotten Shepard killed AGAIN at the end of ME2.

[moater boat]

jkflipflopDAO wrote...

longtimecoming00 wrote...

wathc me tyep wrote...

He's the best of the best? You're sitting in a chair most of the time anyway, are they expecting the pilot to go fighting?

If the ship gets boarded, then yes.

In today's military, everyone from cooks to mechanics receives basic combat training so they'd know what to do in a firefight.  Can't see that part changing just because they're in space.  And since Joker can't even fire a gun without breaking his ribs, that will automatically disqualify him from any military service, even if he just sits in a chair all day long.

LOL I'm sure boardings happen all the time in space 

Did you miss the part in ME2 where the Normandy DOES get boarded?

[moater boat]

Mutant Dwarf wrote...

moater boat wrote...

Yes, I am assuming that in spite of all the changes over the centuries between now and ME1, wars are still fought by the precise application of controlled violence, because that is exactly what we see in the game. Regarding the rifle, it shows him using it, but that makes no sense. Shooting an assault rifle should have broken his fragile shoulder. Don't tell me that when you saw him shooting it at the end of ME2 your first thought was "Oh yeah, Joker could totally do that. I believe it" Because I know that isn't what I thought.

Ah; you're assuming Joker's condition is actually worse than it is. It isn't as bad as all that. Joker's Joker - he exaggerates, easily and often. When he says he fractured his thumb on the mute button, he's joking.

In any case, I see no reason why he couldn't fire an assault rifle, especially after Cerberus upgrades him.

Now this is an intelligent response. That would explain why he doesn't look like someone who can barely walk.

[moater boat]

Shaoken wrote...

And he trained on Alliance Fighters, which are one-man craft. Why do they need to use a gun? They can't get boarded, they're fighting in space so there's no chance of them needing it to survive behind enemy lines, and as continuily pointed out Joker knows how to fire weapons.

But the Normandy DID get boarded. Why is everyone forgetting that?

[Zen_Mojo]

Joker got into the Alliance Flight School because his parents are important defense contractors. He says so in ME1.

His success, on the other hand, is because he's a badass.

Modifié par Zen_Mojo, 21 mars 2012 - 04:23 .

[Shaoken]

moater boat wrote...


Currently every Nimitz class Aircraft Carrier in service with the U.S. Navy uses two nuclear reactors for power. The penalty anyone operating those is responsible for a 4 billion dollar warship and over 5000 crewmembers. Those operators are required to meet the same physical fitness requirements as every other sailor in the Navy.

I am not taking my standard for armies and applying it to a fictional organization. I am taking my firsthand knowledge of warships, from my six years in the navy, and applying it to something VERY similar.

I call bull****; one pilot does not steer a warship in three-demensions with the level of manourablity that the Normandy has. The Normandy is closer to an aircraft than any navy ship.

Say what you will, but Jokers condition got Shepard killed at the beginning of ME2, almost allowed the Normandy to be lost to the collectors, and depending on how ME2 played out, may have gotten Shepard killed AGAIN at the end of ME2.

Did you even play the same game as the rest of us? Joker wasn't incapable of leaving his chair, he was refusing to abandon the Normandy. It was even directly stated in ME3 that it was his choice to stay, not his disablity. Notice that Shepard wasn't carrying him out, he was telling him that the Normandy was lost and he had to move, then giving him a hand to get out.

As for not lifting Shepard up, Shepard was wearing heavy armour. 

[moater boat]

Shaoken wrote...

moater boat wrote...

There are any number of reasons that inertial dampeners would be offline during normal, in atmosphere manuevering. For example, a pilot needs to be able to feel inertia to fly properly. Remember Joker saying EXACTLY THAT while talking about why he doesn't use an exoskeleton? Furthermore inertial dampeners would make simple acts like walking around and carrying things almost impossible. Your entire sense of movement would be thrown off. Obviously any sort of innertial dampening device would simply keep the G's experienced within the ranges acceptable to a NORMAL human.

I am not foolishly assuming anything. I don't do that because I am not a fool. I am actually rediculously smart, and very knowledgable about a wide variety of subjects, but that is beside the point. Regardless of whether I am smart or a fool, there is no concievable reason that the alliance would be recruiting people that are so incredibly disabled.

Also your suggestion that he performed so well in flight training is mute, as that wouldn't happen until AFTER he was accepted into the alliance.

Again, you're making the assumption that all branches of the Alliance Military follow the exact same standards. Obviously the standards for joining the Navy would be different from joining the ground-side forces. 

Even if the standards are different, the key is that they are STILL THERE. Standards must still exist. There is no reason to think that out of such a large pool of applicants, the alliance would even consider accepting anyone that has such a major disability, regardless of what potential he shows in other areas.

[Shaoken]

moater boat wrote...

Shaoken wrote...

And he trained on Alliance Fighters, which are one-man craft. Why do they need to use a gun? They can't get boarded, they're fighting in space so there's no chance of them needing it to survive behind enemy lines, and as continuily pointed out Joker knows how to fire weapons.

But the Normandy DID get boarded. Why is everyone forgetting that?

The Normandy got boarded because the Collector's shut down all of the Normandy's controls and forced their way in. You're forgetting that it was an exceptionally unique circumstance.

[moater boat]

Zen_Mojo wrote...

Joker got into the Alliance Flight School because his parents are important defense contractors. He says so in ME1.

His success, on the other hand, is because he's a badass.

This is another intelligent response, with enough political clout and a stellar performance in flight school, combined with the suggestion that his condition isn't as bad as he makes it out to be....

I could see it happening.

I find this explanation satisfactory.

[longtimecoming00]

Zen_Mojo wrote...

Joker got into the Alliance Flight School because his parents are important defense contractors. He says so in ME1.

His success, on the other hand, is because he's a badass.

Happens in real life.  I know a kid who can't do one single pull-up, but his mother is an important defense contractor and his daddy wears 2 stars on his collar.  He's shipping out to Parris Island next week.

Modifié par longtimecoming00, 21 mars 2012 - 04:27 .

[Lmaoboat]

Wow, did you parents get killed by a guy in a wheelchair or something?

[Arken]

Zen_Mojo wrote...

Joker got into the Alliance Flight School because his parents are important defense contractors. He says so in ME1.

His success, on the other hand, is because he's a badass.

And here's the logical answer. Joker basically bought his way in. Joker's condition doesn't seem as bad as it seems at times.

His inability to run is the only real issue though.

When you could potentially be facing a life or death situation it's probably important to be able to run.

Kind of like when the Collectors boarded the Normandy in Mass Effect 2.