147 réponses à ce sujet

[Lankist]

If you think that's weird, you should see who's fixing the warp coils on the Enterprise D.

[Simi Parthenopaeus]

Vromrig wrote...

Plausible to believe in inertial compensation devices.  Otherwise Faster Than Light Speed Travel would prove...troublesome.  Human pancakes.  Delicious alternative for Reapers.  Not very effective for fielding an army.

I heard Mordin saying this in my head as I read it, WIN <3

[moater boat]

Shaoken wrote...

moater boat wrote...


Currently every Nimitz class Aircraft Carrier in service with the U.S. Navy uses two nuclear reactors for power. The penalty anyone operating those is responsible for a 4 billion dollar warship and over 5000 crewmembers. Those operators are required to meet the same physical fitness requirements as every other sailor in the Navy.

I am not taking my standard for armies and applying it to a fictional organization. I am taking my firsthand knowledge of warships, from my six years in the navy, and applying it to something VERY similar.

I call bull****; one pilot does not steer a warship in three-demensions with the level of manourablity that the Normandy has. The Normandy is closer to an aircraft than any navy ship.

Say what you will, but Jokers condition got Shepard killed at the beginning of ME2, almost allowed the Normandy to be lost to the collectors, and depending on how ME2 played out, may have gotten Shepard killed AGAIN at the end of ME2.

Did you even play the same game as the rest of us? Joker wasn't incapable of leaving his chair, he was refusing to abandon the Normandy. It was even directly stated in ME3 that it was his choice to stay, not his disablity. Notice that Shepard wasn't carrying him out, he was telling him that the Normandy was lost and he had to move, then giving him a hand to get out.

As for not lifting Shepard up, Shepard was wearing heavy armour. 

"I call bull****; one pilot does not steer a warship in three-demensions
with the level of manourablity that the Normandy has. The Normandy is
closer to an aircraft than any navy ship."

That is totally irrelevant and has nothing to do with Jokers condition, so call Bull**** all you want. I plan on staying on topic myself.

"Joker wasn't incapable of leaving his chair, he was refusing to abandon
the Normandy. It was even directly stated in ME3 that it was his choice to stay,"

Right, it was his choice, and I'm sure the fact that he literallly couldn't run to the escape pods to save his life DIDN'T factor into his decision at all. Maybe, just maybe he convinced himself that he actually has some control over his fate and he is choosing to stay instead of being forced to by the disease that has haunted him his whole life. It's a classic lie "I could do that if I wanted to, but I don't"

As for Joker failing to lift him up at the end. Any other squad member can do it. Know why? Because they all meet the most basic physical requirements for military service!

None of this explains why the alliance would take a risk allowing such a physically limited individual into the military.

[moater boat]

Shaoken wrote...

moater boat wrote...

Shaoken wrote...

moater boat wrote...

Shaoken wrote...

As stated, the ship has inertial dampners to stop the entire crew from turning into a fine red paste when they drop out of FTL.

In 2 Shepard doesn't have to rescue Joker because Joker's condition prevents him from escaping, he has to rescue him because Joker is refusing to abandon the Normandy. He even states in ME3 that he could have escaped on his own but refused to, which is why Shepard died the first time.

As for him getting the job in the first place, again he went through flight school, and passed at the head of his glass. He can also fire a weapon, so that handles that aspect. You guys keep forgetting that this is a space ship; devices so complex that they put anything we have today to shame. So you can use today's standards for armed forces to say what a future Alliance pilot would have to know to work on the ship. The more complex the requirements for operating the ship, the less room there is for more learning in other areas.

I'm not using today's standards for the armed forces. I'm using the standard that has been in existance since the begining of organized militaries. Some things change, I will agree, but warfare doesn't change as much as some people may think. For all the changes that have happened to war in the past 10,000 years, it all boils down to sticking a piece of metal into your enemy as forcefully as possible, before he does it to you. As long as wars are won by inflicting physical damage on an enemy. Those who fight wars must be both able to resist damage, and inflict it themselves as best as possible.

Really?

Several thousand years ago the Spartans killed any child with the slighest defect . Back then wars were fought to completely destroy the other army. Today, wars are more precise, with standing armies engaging insurgency forces, and conditions that would have disqualified people 100 years ago are now no longer barriers due to medical advances.

ANd you keep ignoring the main point; Joker can fire a rifle. There, bam. Issue solved; he has demonstrated he can weild a weapon in the event of a boarding party.

"conditions that would have disqualified people 100 years ago are now no longer barriers due to medical advances."

It's actually the complete opposite. Military recruiting standards continue to trend upward and have been doing so for centuries.

Really? Twenty years ago being homosexual disqualified you from military service, now that's no longer true. As someone else said in this very thread people with prothestic limbs are on active service, that wasn't true twenty years ago either.

In fact last time I checked US military recruting standards went down because they couldn't get enough new recruits.

And 2000 years ago in ancient Greece homosexuality was par for the course. That isn't a matter of standards, but discrimination. I've already explained the prosthetic limbs answers. Those are ALL people who entered the service whole and lost a limb. The smart thing to do at that point is to keep them around for their experience and to maintain overall morale. The military IS NOT letting one armed and one legged people join up off the street.

As for the standards going down, that was a temporary change due to involvement in 2 wars, and it is already no longer the case. Overall, standards are higher than they were 50 years ago, and those standards were higher than they were 100 years ago. I come from a military family so I am not just blowing smoke here.

The reason for this is that as civilization advances, the ratio of military size to civilian population goes down. this has been a fairly steady trend for most of human history and there is no reason to assume it will change. This allows militaries to be more and more picky with who they select.

[moater boat]

Shaoken wrote...

moater boat wrote...

Shaoken wrote...

And he trained on Alliance Fighters, which are one-man craft. Why do they need to use a gun? They can't get boarded, they're fighting in space so there's no chance of them needing it to survive behind enemy lines, and as continuily pointed out Joker knows how to fire weapons.

But the Normandy DID get boarded. Why is everyone forgetting that?

The Normandy got boarded because the Collector's shut down all of the Normandy's controls and forced their way in. You're forgetting that it was an exceptionally unique circumstance.

Military life is full of exceptionally unique cicumstances, this is why military members must be ready for anything. ESPECIALLY if said military members could be operating in the cold vacuum of space, lightyears from any chance of rescue.

[moater boat]

longtimecoming00 wrote...

Zen_Mojo wrote...

Joker got into the Alliance Flight School because his parents are important defense contractors. He says so in ME1.

His success, on the other hand, is because he's a badass.

Happens in real life.  I know a kid who can't do one single pull-up, but his mother is an important defense contractor and his daddy wears 2 stars on his collar.  He's shipping out to Parris Island next week.

I don't doubt it, but you have to admit that not being able to do a single pull up and not being able to run are two completely different things.

[askanec]

Joker is the best helmsman because the game says he is.

It's just like Shepard. Why is he so special that he and 2 squad members are capable of superhuman feats? Just 3 of them can hold off an entire Reaper ground force that broke through Hammer flank. It's like everyone else is worthless and can't do anything right, and needs Shepard to bail them out each and every time.

[moater boat]

Lmaoboat wrote...

Wow, did you parents get killed by a guy in a wheelchair or something?

No, but I have scene what happens when you have crewmembers around that you can't count on when the s**t hits the fan, and I can tell you it isn't pretty. If I were shepard I would have at least gotten a backup helmsman as my first act in ME1.

[moater boat]

Lankist wrote...

If you think that's weird, you should see who's fixing the warp coils on the Enterprise D.

I laughed so hard.

[Yargovish]

EDI explains it during the game, she made alliance officials believe the ship only recognized his input (and that she was shackled). They gobbled it all up.

[Shaoken]

[quote]moater boat wrote...

Right, it was his choice, and I'm sure the fact that he literallly couldn't run to the escape pods to save his life DIDN'T factor into his decision at all.[/quote]


Really? You think he couldn't make it ot the escape pod that was right behind the cockpit? A distance that he was shown in game to be able to cross several times? 

[quote]Maybe, just maybe he convinced himself that he actually has some control over his fate and he is choosing to stay instead of being forced to by the disease that has haunted him his whole life. It's a classic lie "I could do that if I wanted to, but I don't"[/quote]

Bull****. His exact words in that scene was "I'm not leaving the Normandy!" He is attached to that ship, his reason for not leaving is not that he can't, and everything to do with him not wanting to leave the Normandy to be destroyed. Even if that scene Shepard just helps him out of the chair, Joker hobbles the rest of the way to the escape pod right behind him. Hardly running.

[quote[As for Joker failing to lift him up at the end. Any other squad member can do it. Know why? Because they all meet the most basic physical requirements for military service![/quote]

Funny how exactly one person in your team who can lift Shepard up was a member of the alliance military. Irrelevant point; Shepard is pulled up by team mates (plural) while Joker gives cover fire.

[quote]None of this explains why the alliance would take a risk allowing such a physically limited individual into the military.[/quote]

Because he's the best pilot in the fleet and he's in a position where physical exhertion is not apart of the job description, based entirely on the notion that the alliance navy has the exact same standards for entry as the US military, ignoring the remote possiblity that perhaps in the future things change.

[wryterra]

moater boat wrote...

sistersafetypin wrote...

Like Joker said in ME1... He's still the best pilot in the fleet. So no

That's another load of crap. How many G's can his frail body withstand? No way someone with a body like that could actually be a pilot.

Spaceship. 

Gravities. 

I'll let you put those together. 

[thebigbad1013]

Considering how many times he saved my ass during the game, no. I'm quite happy that he was there. And him being voiced by Seth Green makes it even better.

[moater boat]

[quote]Shaoken wrote...

[quote]moater boat wrote...

Right, it was his choice, and I'm sure the fact that he literallly couldn't run to the escape pods to save his life DIDN'T factor into his decision at all.[/quote]


Really? You think he couldn't make it ot the escape pod that was right behind the cockpit? A distance that he was shown in game to be able to cross several times? 

[quote]Maybe, just maybe he convinced himself that he actually has some control over his fate and he is choosing to stay instead of being forced to by the disease that has haunted him his whole life. It's a classic lie "I could do that if I wanted to, but I don't"[/quote]

Bull****. His exact words in that scene was "I'm not leaving the Normandy!" He is attached to that ship, his reason for not leaving is not that he can't, and everything to do with him not wanting to leave the Normandy to be destroyed. Even if that scene Shepard just helps him out of the chair, Joker hobbles the rest of the way to the escape pod right behind him. Hardly running.

[quote[As for Joker failing to lift him up at the end. Any other squad member can do it. Know why? Because they all meet the most basic physical requirements for military service![/quote]

Funny how exactly one person in your team who can lift Shepard up was a member of the alliance military. Irrelevant point; Shepard is pulled up by team mates (plural) while Joker gives cover fire.

[quote]None of this explains why the alliance would take a risk allowing such a physically limited individual into the military.[/quote]

Because he's the best pilot in the fleet and he's in a position where physical exhertion is not apart of the job description, based entirely on the notion that the alliance navy has the exact same standards for entry as the US military, ignoring the remote possiblity that perhaps in the future things change.

[/quote]

What do you not understand about this? In order for him to be the best pilot in the fleet, he needs to be accepted into the alliance and the flight training. He wasn't just BORN an amazing pilot. He admits he had to work his ass off. I am asking how he got accepted in the first place?

and I'm not basing it on the standards of just the U.S. military, being able to move around like a normal human has been pretty much been required since the birth of professional militaries!

[RLesueur]

moater boat wrote...

I guess this is technically not a ME 3 question, since it relates to ALL Mass Effect games. But does anyone else think that it makes NO sense whatsoever that someone with such a debilitating disability would be accepted into the alliance? It's not like military physical requirements are likely to just go away over the next couple centuries.

No, Joker is like the Shepard of pilots.

[moater boat]

wryterra wrote...

moater boat wrote...

sistersafetypin wrote...

Like Joker said in ME1... He's still the best pilot in the fleet. So no

That's another load of crap. How many G's can his frail body withstand? No way someone with a body like that could actually be a pilot.

Spaceship. 

Gravities. 

I'll let you put those together. 

inertia

physics

I'll let you put those together


no, you know what, I am going to spell it out for you because you probably need it. G's are not actually gravity. They have nothing to do with gravity whatsoever, they are just a convenient way of measuring force

Force= mass x acceleration

anytime the Normandy changes speed or direction, it accelerates, which means force.

high school level science dude <_<

[RLesueur]

moater boat wrote...

wryterra wrote...

moater boat wrote...

sistersafetypin wrote...

Like Joker said in ME1... He's still the best pilot in the fleet. So no

That's another load of crap. How many G's can his frail body withstand? No way someone with a body like that could actually be a pilot.

Spaceship. 

Gravities. 

I'll let you put those together. 

inertia

physics

I'll let you put those together


no, you know what, I am going to spell it out for you because you probably need it. G's are not actually gravity. They have nothing to do with gravity whatsoever, they are just a convenient way of measuring force

Force= mass x acceleration

anytime the Normandy changes speed or direction, it accelerates, which means force.

high school level science dude <_<

Mass Effect fields...it's ridiculously well established that they are used to lower mass in flight.

[tenojitsu]

Politcal correctness is even worse in the future

[hawat333]

Rachek81 wrote...

He proved himself, and he's the best damned helmsman in the alliance navy

That's true. And with a threat this big, convencional methods don't apply.
They'd probably keep him under survelliance if it wasn't a galactic scale war going on.

[tenojitsu]

RLesueur wrote...

moater boat wrote...

wryterra wrote...

moater boat wrote...

sistersafetypin wrote...

Like Joker said in ME1... He's still the best pilot in the fleet. So no

That's another load of crap. How many G's can his frail body withstand? No way someone with a body like that could actually be a pilot.

Spaceship. 

Gravities. 

I'll let you put those together. 

inertia

physics

I'll let you put those together


no, you know what, I am going to spell it out for you because you probably need it. G's are not actually gravity. They have nothing to do with gravity whatsoever, they are just a convenient way of measuring force

Force= mass x acceleration

anytime the Normandy changes speed or direction, it accelerates, which means force.

high school level science dude <_<

Mass Effect fields...it's ridiculously well established that they are used to lower mass in flight.

Watching James perform pull ups in the shuttle bay sure gave me the impression like the laws of physics were at play inside the Normandy. If James' pull ups required that type of work to perform, you would think mass would be behaving as usual in the Normandy, thus, Joker snaps in half during combat manuevering

[RLesueur]

tenojitsu wrote...

Watching James perform pull ups in the shuttle bay sure gave me the impression like the laws of physics were at play inside the Normandy. If James' pull ups required that type of work to perform, you would think mass would be behaving as usual in the Normandy, thus, Joker snaps in half during combat manuevering

Yeah, the whole idea is that they adjust the mass of the ship to perform certain manouvers. Basically, mass effect fields = Joker can be a pilot.

[moater boat]

RLesueur wrote...

tenojitsu wrote...

Watching James perform pull ups in the shuttle bay sure gave me the impression like the laws of physics were at play inside the Normandy. If James' pull ups required that type of work to perform, you would think mass would be behaving as usual in the Normandy, thus, Joker snaps in half during combat manuevering

Yeah, the whole idea is that they adjust the mass of the ship to perform certain manouvers. Basically, mass effect fields = Joker can be a pilot.

Because there will never ever be a situation where Jokers frail body will half to withstand 2 G's

I'm sorry,  I don't buy it. There is absolutely no compelling reason that medical review officer would even consider allowing someone like that into the military, especially in a role that will put him on the front lines with lives in his frail, easily shattered hands.

[DarthLaxian]

He proved himself, and he's the best damned helmsman in the alliance navy

 

Hate to do threat necromancy, but:

 

No he isn't, he screwed up at the start of ME2 big time (shoddy flying - why not double back so that you can at least return fire and get out of the arch for the main gun of that collector ship? Not wanting to abandon ship (he basically KILLED Shepard!))

 

Also: I agree with the OP, the guy is not only a danger to himself (sadly, I don't wish his disease on anybody and frankly I am surprised/stumped that they haven't found a way to fix that (nano-bots that put a metal coating on those brittle bones for example)), but to others as well (if G-Forces hit the ship because the artificial grafity doesn't work 100% anymore normal people might still survive (if it's nothing too extreme), but Joker? He'd have so many broken bones that he can't pilot ANYTHING anymore!)

 

ps: Maybe it's because I just don't like the character (he doesn't show any guilt or remorse over getting me (Shepard) spaced...then there's his attitude!)