133 réponses à ce sujet

[Thornne]

Nobody can decide for someone else if they are embarassed or not, so ... who knows?

I think any company who sold us this product, with this ending, given the pre-release statements about what the ending would be, should at least be a little ashamed. Perhaps even apologetic.

But so far that is not the vibe I am getting from Bioware's public statements. More like 'our customers love the ending, except for a few rabid fanatics who really only wanted unicorns and rainbows.' Lovely, thanks. That really makes me want to buy more of your products.

As for trusting ... well, I think you can understand how I feel on that score, based on what I just said.

[ZerebusPrime]

So, with a somewhat cooler perspective, I don't think we can know exactly what happened. This could be a case of one or two guys thinking they had a good idea but didn't bother to listen to anyone offering a sanity check. This could be a focus group failure. This could be EA breathing down the necks of the creative team. This could be the creative team trying to kiss up to EA. The ending debacle could be the result of a hundred different situations and we don't get to find out because all those employees have got to be under a business-enforced gag order. You can't say bad things in public about your workers or executives. You just can't. You get sued or fired or both if you do. It's why people leave their jobs "to spend more time with the family" or "to seek new challenges" instead of getting fired because of personal incompetence or because the person in charge just didn't like them (nonspecific examples). So there very may well be someone or a few someones at fault but without a whistleblower or a sufficiently disgruntled ex-employee we aren't likely to know exactly who, what, or why.

Modifié par ZerebusPrime, 21 mars 2012 - 07:49 .

[Shin Yodama]

I wonder if the creators of Deus Ex are amused at Bioware for stealing their ending?

[count_4]

Militarized wrote...
 did he fail miserably at his job as the Lead writer? Does that intern mean Hudson failed as the Lead Producer in not whipping his writing team into shape? 

It certainly seems that way. I mean look at the main plot of ME2. Right, it's not there. Same for ME3, the main plot is predictable to the point everybody knew what will happen, two years ago. And the parts we didn't expect? They don't make a lot of sense.
All the awesome parts of the game were written by someone else. Tuchanka, Rannoch - not Walters. The characters, PTSD Asari - not Walters, except for Garrus (and Wrex in ME1 iirc).
Judging by evidence, he simply is a bad writer.

And according to Final Hours(or some quotes, idk) Casey Hudson even made some suggestions regarding the current ending. So not only did he not slap Walters around for this crap, he actively took part in crafting this abomination.

Nonetheless, Hudson did some great work with the trilogy. He made a mistake, a bad one, but it happens. Walters on the other hand...I wouldn't be surprised if he was repurposed within the next year. Certainly not in the next months, that would be too obvious but I don't expect him to be seen as lead writer any time soon.

Modifié par count_4, 21 mars 2012 - 08:19 .

[CaptainMonday]

I did try to understand the writers and their reasoning behind ending the series the way they did. If we can agree that the first, second and 98% of the third game all had brilliant writing then there must have been some reason for their artistic choice.

Here is what I was able to come up with:

The whole Reaper cycle has been going on for several hundred thousand, probably even millions of years, involving countless different races and individuals. So when our cycle finally menages to end it it should be more then just a victory for us. The end needed to be massive in scale, affecting not only the current council races but all of life that will come in the millions of years to follow. The destruction of the Mass Relays and the Citadel, the "fusion" of organic and synthetic life (in one case) absolutely does that. So while all of the races that we know from the Mass Effect universe have either been destroyed in the Mass Relay explosion or were eaten by the Krogan after being stranded in the Sol system, if you look at the really big picture organic life is now free to evolve and find it's own purpose in the galaxy without the Reapers to control them. Shepard ended the cycle.

So in a way, it is in fact a bittersweet ending... right?

Well here is where I think the "sweet" part falls apart. The whole series was about individuals and how all of life is important. The idea that Shepard would sacrifice an entire collective of galactic civilizations for "the greater good" goes against everything he/she stands for. That's something the Illusive Man would have done (or what the Reapers were doing) but not Shepard. I even think that at some point Shepard even says that they fight for their friends and families and the ones who died in the war. Not for some species that might evolve at some point in the future.
So even if by looking at the big picture the organic life won, the players who failed to protect the ones they were fighting for have lost. Shepard failed in his quest and only bitterness remained.

/melodramatic mode off

[Dhraconus]

I've been struggling with the fact that they apparently started ME1 without knowing where the trilogy was going. They honestly should have had the whole primary story arc, major plot points, and lore more or less planned out before ME1 shipped and stuck with it. This includes the ending of all 3 games, but especially the ending of the trilogy.

You don't start a major project with the plan "let's just wing it and make it up as we go."

[Kanner]

By 'embarrassed' you mean 'finished', right?

[Vaktathi]

Dhraconus wrote...

I've been struggling with the fact that they apparently started ME1 without knowing where the trilogy was going. They honestly should have had the whole primary story arc, major plot points, and lore more or less planned out before ME1 shipped and stuck with it. This includes the ending of all 3 games, but especially the ending of the trilogy.

You don't start a major project with the plan "let's just wing it and make it up as we go."

You'd actually be surprised how often this happens, pretty much every major TV show works out like that. That's why they too often end up with "wtf" endings, like Lost, BSG, the Soprano's, Farscape, etc.

[Nyctyris]

Vaktathi wrote...

Dhraconus wrote...

I've been struggling with the fact that they apparently started ME1 without knowing where the trilogy was going. They honestly should have had the whole primary story arc, major plot points, and lore more or less planned out before ME1 shipped and stuck with it. This includes the ending of all 3 games, but especially the ending of the trilogy.

You don't start a major project with the plan "let's just wing it and make it up as we go."

You'd actually be surprised how often this happens, pretty much every major TV show works out like that. That's why they too often end up with "wtf" endings, like Lost, BSG, the Soprano's, Farscape, etc.

Would like to make a correction - without sounding too accusatory (I hope).

That happens for a lot of shows in the States because tv series are often done on a "as long as ratings are X, keep filming" regardless of whether that suits the plotline or story arc, etc (big example: House). In the same way, many American shows can be cancelled quite abruptly (Serenity) if the producer simply decides to.

In the UK, shows are bought in advance; even if the ratings are bad, the show will finish it's run. Conversely, some shows which start out shaky but grown into their own are allowed to do so, because they can afford to plan a longer story arc without fear of interruption for at least a given amount of time. That means you get less new-adventure-every-week kind of shows (soaps excluded).

A similar thing exists in Japanese anime, which more frequently set story arcs and plotlines. Yes, I know that isn't true for all of them, but something like Trigun or Ghost in the Shell - they follow a set story, and have an ending planned in advance. When they're finished, they're finished. If more are made, they will be made to a set story arc again, rather than a new-adventure-every-week basis the way  Star Trek is or whatever.

I have no idea how much of game design planning incorporates "making it up as you go along", but even if that is the case, games like ME are designed to have a set story arc, a definite start and a definite finish. There is no ambiguity about when or where ME will end. It should have been planned, because it has to be deliberate. I also am confused, just like the OP - how could they have missed this out? The only thing that seems to make sense is that they genuinely thought it would be well received. Makes me feel sorry for them though - sucks when nobody likes your product, and it sucks worse when they don't like it cause you did it badly :/

[Vaktathi]

True enough. And yeah, it does suck when you get reaction like this to your product you've worked hard on, especially when most of it was solid awesome, though at the same time it's likely they had a good deal of internal feedback on the issue and their statements pre-release describe an ending that resembles in almost no way the one we actually got, so it's hard to feel too bad.

[Baronesa]

I think you are all wrong...

They achieved exactly what they wanted too...

LOTS OF SPECULATION FROM EVERYONE!!!!!!

of course... they intended for that to be limited to the game, I'm sure... but the monster has a life of it's own now...

ohh and SPACE MAGIC!!!


Good post sir

[Brakxel]

Militarized wrote...

In short... how is this possible? Is it true they have an ending up their sleeve and his last minute notes were about how to deceive people? "LOTS OF SPECULATION?" Fun for everyone while they polish away at the ending he had planned the entire time? Or did he fail miserably at his job as the Lead writer? Does that intern mean Hudson failed as the Lead Producer in not whipping his writing team into shape? If Walters couldn't come up with anything WHY DID HE NOT DELEGATE IT TO SOMEONE ELSE? Hubris? Vanity? Am I ignorant of how things work in assuming you should have your art/story at least somewhat fleshed out before working on the more technical bits of the game? 

I do not view this as slander, I view it as honest questions we should be asking... have at everyone. 

This has been burning me as well, and the big reason I'm following the whole debacle with morbid fascination.

What we need is a good postmortem on the entire project. Their process should be studied in a lab, like scientists working on the black box of a crashed airplane. Serve it up as a warning to other game developers on how not to treat a beloved franchise.

I don't want to do it place blame on anyone, but make sure no other company (game/software/movie) falls in the same trap.

EDIT: how did that get in there?

Modifié par Brakxel, 21 mars 2012 - 01:24 .

[zarnk567]

Xandax wrote...

It does put in perspective how little you can trust *anything* Bioware says about their games.

^this^ I let them slide with Dragon Age 2 cause well, bad games happen. But there were soooo many lies with Mass Effect 3, that I just cant trust Bioware anymore.

[nitefyre410]

Brakxel wrote...

Militarized wrote...

In short... how is this possible? Is it true they have an ending up their sleeve and his last minute notes were about how to deceive people? "LOTS OF SPECULATION?" Fun for everyone while they polish away at the ending he had planned the entire time? Or did he fail miserably at his job as the Lead writer? Does that intern mean Hudson failed as the Lead Producer in not whipping his writing team into shape? If Walters couldn't come up with anything WHY DID HE NOT DELEGATE IT TO SOMEONE ELSE? Hubris? Vanity? Am I ignorant of how things work in assuming you should have your art/story at least somewhat fleshed out before working on the more technical bits of the game? 

I do not view this as slander, I view it as honest questions we should be asking... have at everyone. 

This has been burning me as well, and the big reason I'm following the whole debacle with morbid fascination.

What we need is a good postmortem on the entire project. Their process should be studied in a lab, like scientists working on the black box of a crashed airplane. Serve it up as a warning to other game developers on how not to treat a beloved franchise.

I don't want to do it place blame on anyone, but make sure no other company (game/software/movie) falls in the same trap.

EDIT: how did that get in there?

 

True but there needs to be blame placed and responsibility needs to assumed because this is looking more and more like a colossal  **** up everyday.... the notes from the Final Hour are pretty damning.    This  game is Bioware's flagship and it was going to be in  the running for game of there and given the quality of the first 99%  something happened at when it came to the ending.  The writing quality is terrible, ever sense Deception I have had questions about Bioware quality control who there tells  some one when they  are not cutting the mustard.  Hudson being the exective producer  should have to Walters that  this was not going fly. Take Hudson and replace  him with say   Kojima  or someone else.  I don't think for one minute these endings would have made it past the cutting room floor anywhere else.  not  Blizzard, not 2K, not Square Enix, not Nintendo,  no where else.  

Something went wrong, mistakes were made. 

[Hicks233]

They goofed on an as it stands very important part of the story but got so much before it right.

People make mistakes, it's then just a case of solving them. It can be repaired.

There's no reason for vitriolic hatred, PR games won't dispel that however.

[Iyerbeth]

Even if nothing else I don't understand the God Child introduction. Anyone with half the skill that the Bioware team was could see that was a terrible decision and I legitimately don't understand why it made it through. They proved time and time again with the ME series just how good they are and then that happened and beyond being rushed I just don't understand how it could have happened. They are so much better than that.

Even Harbinger realising it was too late to stop us could try to explain and talk Shepard down over this new character.

Modifié par Iyerbeth, 21 mars 2012 - 01:43 .

[Wrathra]

It certainly doesn't seem like a whole lot of planning went into how they ended the trilogy. You have to have an idea from the start how you want it to end, you don't throw some crap together on a sheet of loose leaf paper like a third grader and pat yourself on the back and bask in your own greatness. .

[Kulthar Drax]

CaptainMonday wrote...

The whole Reaper cycle has been going on for several hundred thousand, probably even millions of years, involving countless different races and individuals.

I know this is slightly off topic and not addressing most of what you said, but it has often bugged me when people have said it in the forums here regarding how long the cycle has been going on for. Most people say things like "hundreds of thousand" or "a few million", when it is explicitly stated that the Leviathan of Dis as mentioned in the Mass Effect 1 planet information for Jartar was exstimated to be nearly a billion years old. And in Mass Effect 3, it is also mentioned several times that the Leviathan was actually the corpse of a Reaper dreadnaught. So the cycle has been going on for at least a billion years so far. Sorry for the sidetracking, but it just bugged me XD

[Abreu Road]

I think the worst of all this is the countless times both Hudson and Walters told us in interviews, videos, tweets all those lies about not being an A, B or C ending, everything you did in the series matter on the final battle (yeah, right, war assets? that's it? our decisions turned to be war assets at the final moments?).

As I already said here, it's unbelievable that the same minds who gave us Mordin's Redemption, Tali and Legion on Rannoch, Grunt's last stand, EDI and her free will and countless other incredible moments are the same minds who gave us the Pokemon colours endings. Oh, yeah, and the Xzibit synthetics/organics logic.

Modifié par Abreu Road, 21 mars 2012 - 01:49 .

[The Angry One]

Shin Yodama wrote...

I wonder if the creators of Deus Ex are amused at Bioware for stealing their ending?

They're probably confused as to why Walters felt the need to add all that magic.

[Armass81]

Its incredible if he didnt have a complete ending planned at that point, considering ive seen a fan device a better one with better dialogue in a few days than what we eventually got. And they are not even payed for that.

Where has all the creativity gone to? These are supposed to be professionals.

Modifié par Armass81, 21 mars 2012 - 01:51 .

[OriginalTibs]

They surely had a plan, but it just as surely didn't 'work'. What we have now was probably the best they could come up with in the time they had.

If all that is true I'd say they did a 'good enough' job, all things considered. Except 'good enough' ultimately wasn't. It contradicts all that was taught in the rest of the series. It is like someone decided ME3 was too big and took a cleaver to it, then told the devs to polish up what was left.

[Coolfaec]

 Lots of speculation for everyone! 

[Bullseye_Sally]

The thought has crossed my mind that may EA was rushing them to finish and if it wasn't for that the game would've been pushed back to Holiday season and we would've had a different type ending.

[REMoyen2]

I feel the same. I trusted Bioware to deliver great RPG games. Then DA2 happened. I was skeptical, called it a flop and the 1 year dev cycle. Kept on believing. Then SWTOR happened. I was utterly afraid of ME3. Then my instinct was right. My trust in Bioware has been faltered. I will Hold the Line and hope for redemption.