133 réponses à ce sujet

[StellarNim]

Xandax wrote...

It does put in perspective how little you can trust *anything* Bioware says about their games.

Thats a big one for me. I was a day 1 buyer for Bioware, but after all this, I'm gonna wait after each release.

[hagren]

I guess they thought the community will have a passionate and satisfying time dissecting the ending, not that they'd only conclude they're hacks.

[Brakxel]

ZerebusPrime wrote...

So, with a somewhat cooler perspective, I don't think we can know exactly what happened. This could be a case of one or two guys thinking they had a good idea but didn't bother to listen to anyone offering a sanity check. This could be a focus group failure. This could be EA breathing down the necks of the creative team. This could be the creative team trying to kiss up to EA. The ending debacle could be the result of a hundred different situations and we don't get to find out because all those employees have got to be under a business-enforced gag order. You can't say bad things in public about your workers or executives. You just can't. You get sued or fired or both if you do. It's why people leave their jobs "to spend more time with the family" or "to seek new challenges" instead of getting fired because of personal incompetence or because the person in charge just didn't like them (nonspecific examples). So there very may well be someone or a few someones at fault but without a whistleblower or a sufficiently disgruntled ex-employee we aren't likely to know exactly who, what, or why.

Worldly wisdom, indeed. This, sadly, is the truth.

I've been on software projects that unfortunately didn't meet the user's needs. It was small time compared to this, but still very stressful and required all departments to circle the wagons until we could dig our way out.

After going back and looking at the design and building process, the big issue we always failed on could be summed up in one word:

Hubris.

We thought we knew what the customer wanted, and in the face of contrary evidence push forward anyway. How is that possible? Seems very stupid now, right?

Well, the human mind has an excellent filtering system. Once it sets itself on a purpose or idea or belief, it is almost impossible to shake it. Good and supporting evidence seems brighter, richer. Negative response seems out of touch or minor. No warning lights, no angry tweets, no cautionary tales can pull that mind back--unless it has humility. Those of us who’ve been in boardrooms or creative meetings, how much humility have you’ve seen?

Now imagine you are given the reigns of this powerful beast called Mass Effect 3. It has two critically acclaimed titles already and an endearing fan base who beg to touch the hem of your garment. You are tasked with riding this magic carpet into the sunset, and personally you could make a mark on gaming history.

This is a rare opportunity for the game and yourself and everyone involved. This is Super Bowl Winning Field Goal Rare. You are walking where many only dream. Do you go down the checklist and make sure everything the fans asked for is included and do the Hollywood ending? No, that is cliche. We want Shepard’s name written in the stars. We want the players imaginations to take Shepard where we could only dream! And so it begins...

Great minds together working on a great task does not always lead to greatness, but when you are in the middle of it, breathing that rarefied air of certain success, it is hard to hear otherwise.

Finally, I’ll quote myself, “The problem with everyone saying you are great is after a while you start to believe them.”
[/b]

[Tietj]

When do they mention the Leviathan of Dis in ME3? Did I miss that somehow?

[WarBaby2]

The Angry One wrote...

I don't know but somebody dropped the ball here big time, that they thought we'd ever accept this garbage as the ending to a trilogy 5 years in the making is a sick joke.

No, the real joke is that there are still some people accepting and even defending the ending...

[tamperous]

New Nickname: "The vanguard of IP destruction"

If Walters, Hudson and Gamble was a law firm suing companies for patent violations this would be a good thing.

But since they are writers at Bioware building a game studio's primary franchise, this is a bad thing.

Modifié par tamperous, 21 mars 2012 - 02:08 .

[sadako]

Actually they could have trawled the BSN forums if they were that tight for ideas y'know? but somehow that didn't happen. The reddit flowchart was certainly a great idea that would have been epic if it was implemented.

But I wouldn't be so quick to blame the game design team on this, because it may be that they didn't have the budget to do it, since they spent all that money on marketing the product with multiple launch trailers.

Still, to reuse one FMV for multiple endings? Deus EX: HR did that and they actually made 3 different cobbled up videos.

Still, I loved the other parts of the game esp the companion drama, which is probably why I hated the endings more than I should.

Modifié par sadako, 21 mars 2012 - 02:12 .

[sadako]

Brakxel wrote...
Worldly wisdom, indeed. This, sadly, is the truth.

I've been on software projects that unfortunately didn't meet the user's needs. It was small time compared to this, but still very stressful and required all departments to circle the wagons until we could dig our way out.

After going back and looking at the design and building process, the big issue we always failed on could be summed up in one word:

Hubris.

We thought we knew what the customer wanted, and in the face of contrary evidence push forward anyway. How is that possible? Seems very stupid now, right?

Well, the human mind has an excellent filtering system. Once it sets itself on a purpose or idea or belief, it is almost impossible to shake it. Good and supporting evidence seems brighter, richer. Negative response seems out of touch or minor. No warning lights, no angry tweets, no cautionary tales can pull that mind back--unless it has humility. Those of us who’ve been in boardrooms or creative meetings, how much humility have you’ve seen?

Now imagine you are given the reigns of this powerful beast called Mass Effect 3. It has two critically acclaimed titles already and an endearing fan base who beg to touch the hem of your garment. You are tasked with riding this magic carpet into the sunset, and personally you could make a mark on gaming history.

This is a rare opportunity for the game and yourself and everyone involved. This is Super Bowl Winning Field Goal Rare. You are walking where many only dream. Do you go down the checklist and make sure everything the fans asked for is included and do the Hollywood ending? No, that is cliche. We want Shepard’s name written in the stars. We want the players imaginations to take Shepard where we could only dream! And so it begins...

Great minds together working on a great task does not always lead to greatness, but when you are in the middle of it, breathing that rarefied air of certain success, it is hard to hear otherwise.

Finally, I’ll quote myself, “The problem with everyone saying you are great is after a while you start to believe them.”
[/b]

*claps*
Well stated!

[Innocent Erendira]

There's a lot of indications throughout the game that various upgrades and war assets were supposed to come into play for the conclusion. It's quite clear the ending was rushed.

Dropping the ball indeed.

Also for some games the final boss format does not work, this was not one of those games. What we did to deserve Marauder Shields (no offense, I do love the guy) as the final boss of the trilogy and an incomprehensible ending I will never know.

[emperoralku]

I strongly suspect the team fell victim to groupthink.

[Ultra Prism]

whatever they did, had no sense, the end sequences were of a total chaos .. if they are Reapers, sure end with one big bang and done

[Underworld40k]

It boggles my mind that the script just nose dives so massively. Worse is that this has been done after the flack that deus ex got for the EXACT same approach to an ending. Perhaps they thought that mass effect is inherently immune to being held to high standards?

That no one on the team caught this and pointed out that this just wasn't going to fly well with a lot of fans is simply amazing. I would love to believe that it was a time constraint brought on by EA demanding more and more from them but the noises being made, corporate lockdowns aside, strongly suggest that this was seen as good writing.

Its even worse that bioware made dragon age: origins as well, which while not perfect gives you more or less all the realistic answers you need about your decisions in game. How can one team not look at what their company has already produced and say "hey, that's probably a really good way to explain the ending of a lot of characters and scenarios when we have so many variables to track".

If the design brief was to provoke discussion then being able to compare exactly what happened in my play through against another Shepard would be a lot better because its not a cookie cutter ending.

[circe]

While I've been chalking this cluster**** if an ending to a lack of time, excessive pressure from the EA overlords, the burden of ending a fantastic series like ME, and the compounded complication of the script leak. And yet at the same time I can't understand with all the talent in Bioware that no one thought this color coded space magic might be a bad idea. Maybe it is as someone suggested, the ending looked better on paper. Still doesn't explain why the final product went out as it did but I can't think of a better explanation. I just hopethat they aren't scrambling to make a new ending and give us something even worse that what we have.

[Quietness]

StellarNim wrote...

Xandax wrote...

It does put in perspective how little you can trust *anything* Bioware says about their games.

Thats a big one for me. I was a day 1 buyer for Bioware, but after all this, I'm gonna wait after each release.

This, 

I used to throw my money at the monitor hoping it would speed it up so i could play it, knowing it was going to be an amazing title. I was able to over-look DA2, i figured eh.. they can fix whatever issues in the next game no biggie.

Now ME:3 .... yea im keeping my money now if its not fixed i will simply not bother anymore.

[die-yng]

I'm not gonna slander anyone, but it's a problem these days, that has happened again and again on television, with series like BSG or Lost.
The ending gets hyped up so high, that it can never be satisfiable, if it finally arrives.

In this case, satisfying endings could have been easily attained, if Bioware had only stock to what they originally promised, instead they rushed it to put the game on the shelves and failed to think it through from a players perspective.
I do believe that from a writer's pov, it is a quite good ending, it might actually work in a book or in a show, but in a VG, absolute fail.

[Vaktathi]

emperoralku wrote...

I strongly suspect the team fell victim to groupthink.

Very possible, at least at the upper development/writing levels, that sounds like it would fit what happened. Though I have trouble believing nobody inside Bioware tried to raise an alarm about this given out oddly jarring and ill fitting it is with the rest of the game, especially during internal testing and review.

They had to have some idea of the potential issues with the ending before release.

Modifié par Vaktathi, 21 mars 2012 - 02:43 .

[FyreSyder]

There MUST be a story behind it. Something that only the head producers know about.

[WarBaby2]

Xandax wrote...

It does put in perspective how little you can trust *anything* Bioware says about their games.

Funny, hu? That actually is part of the "defense" some have put up in favour of the ending. Along the lines of:

"You actually believed what BioWare said pre release? Haha, your fault!"

[FyreSyder]

Brakxel wrote...

Finally, I’ll quote myself, “The problem with everyone saying you are great is after a while you start to believe them.”

That's YOUR quote? Wow, it seems like it should be from a famous philosopher's scroll from the 15th century.
You, sir, have won the internets.

[Sean]

Hudson and Walters flat out lie. If this topic gets locked because of that then both of them NEED to make a statement. I would've understood if they said "No Comment" in those interviews but they didn't.

We were told the rachni would be shown in the end, the wasn't a choice between A, B, or C and that the endings wouldn't be extremely similar. Those interviews were back in late February and early March of THIS YEAR.

The ending currently in ME3 is the exact opposite of what they said.

[Juha81FIN]

Tietj wrote...

When do they mention the Leviathan of Dis in ME3? Did I miss that somehow?

It is mentioned briefly in one of the side missions in Citadel especially if Balak is alive (Bring Down The Sky DLC of ME 1).
I don't remember what the mission's name is but it can also be gained in fresh new ME 3 game, it has little insight how batarians were wiped out.

[Allison_Lightning]

I am nerve wracked about writing the final book in my series- and I knew where my ending was going in 2010, this is beyond lazy writing. It’s reprehensible- it’s almost like Heroes if Tim Kring could write everything but an ending. You never start without a plan, ever and I'm still processing this... now is the time, if these writers are reading this thread to redeem yourselves. Do the right thing to save a story that had the potential to reach past its class and into the light, because otherwise this is the point of no return.

No one is going to get invested like this again- not to have their story discarded.

[Brakxel]

FyreSyder wrote...

Brakxel wrote...

Finally, I’ll quote myself, “The problem with everyone saying you are great is after a while you start to believe them.”

That's YOUR quote? Wow, it seems like it should be from a famous philosopher's scroll from the 15th century.
You, sir, have won the internets.

Haha! Yes, that does make me sound like a snob. Thank you for calling me on it. 

I should edit that out so I don't sound like such a douche, but it is funny. I'll blame too much caffeine, but actually I can be a tool sometimes.

[Sequin]

I don't believe Hudson lied about anything. I believe what he told us was true... from a certain point of view.

[kegNeggs]

well now that would be something, wouldnt it.

Having done a bit of writing myself, I can see where writing w/o a planned ending could go awry.

to bad they wouldn't confess to something like this even if it were true.

Modifié par kegNeggs, 21 mars 2012 - 03:23 .