Aller au contenu

Photo

Bioware/Walters- Embarassed? To be trusted?


133 réponses à ce sujet

#76
Fulgrim88

Fulgrim88
  • Members
  • 1 585 messages

Quietness wrote...

StellarNim wrote...

Xandax wrote...

It does put in perspective how little you can trust *anything* Bioware says about their games.


Thats a big one for me. I was a day 1 buyer for Bioware, but after all this, I'm gonna wait after each release.


This, 

I used to throw my money at the monitor hoping it would speed it up so i could play it, knowing it was going to be an amazing title. I was able to over-look DA2, i figured eh.. they can fix whatever issues in the next game no biggie.

Now ME:3 .... yea im keeping my money now if its not fixed i will simply not bother anymore.

Biggest issue for me as well.

Whoever is responsible for the ending probably did what he could. Turned out to be bad, but hey, everyone makes mistakes. No point calling for his head.
The people I am really mad at, are those who deliberately lied to us. There's NO EXCUSE for that.

That's what destroyed my trust in this company.

And the fact that they are now trying to ignore the issue, hoping we'll grow bored and forget, does little to repair it.

#77
jspiess

jspiess
  • Members
  • 596 messages

The Angry One wrote...

I don't know but somebody dropped the ball here big time, that they thought we'd ever accept this garbage as the ending to a trilogy 5 years in the making is a sick joke.



#78
GoblinSapper

GoblinSapper
  • Members
  • 945 messages
Lack of Proper Planning Leads to ****** Poor Performance

It's not that they failed, or that Walters was a failure, I think it's just a lack of organized planning overwhelmed them.

#79
Vandalisme

Vandalisme
  • Members
  • 77 messages
For me the damage is already done. If the indoctrination theory is even partly right, with the right explanation that make all the cogs come togehter, AS IS now, and not by some DLC expansion it might be forgivable. But DLC should be optional content, not in any way part of the main plot.

#80
die-yng

die-yng
  • Members
  • 626 messages
Why not just accept that they screwed up the ending and give them the chance to fix it?

I don't think it was all a ploy to get people to buy a new ending dlc, for that they let far to much time pass without announcing it.

#81
Big Push

Big Push
  • Members
  • 213 messages

recentio wrote...

Having been involved in a few large-scale projects, I can tell you that it's not always the case that things will be rigorously and effectively planned in advance. If you have talented people, as BioWare does, you can often get away with it because your Aces will pull your a** out of the fire and sometimes come through with spontaneous brilliance that excessive planning might have stifled. By walking a fine line between careful preparation and on-the-spot execution, a team can reach (IMO) maximum potential. Still, this is a tightrope walk that not every project team should attempt.

Based on seeing patterns that resemble this before (or perhaps projecting because I think this resembles patterns I've seen before) I'm of the opinion that BioWare's ME3 team was harried with their backs to the wall at almost every level in the final months. Though something was scrabbled together, the fact that the influences jotted down "Brave New World" and "The Matrix [Revolutions]" are transparent in the final version imply to me that there was not enough time to fully develop the ideas that the ending juggles.

I feel this last-minute (by the looks of it) job is why the game does not build to the ending and hence why the ending does not 'fit' the game. Proper set up and continuity checking could have dealt with every plot hole and made this ending epically mind blowing. Instead the apparent thesis of the ending is not the same as the apparent thesis of the game.

Did they let it get away from them? Did they run out of time to do it right? I think so. Luckily, there's all the time in the world now. A six-month wait for a revised and expanded ending DLC would be welcomed with jubilee by a lot of customers. It's their chance to do everything they really wanted to do with it and blow us all out of the water. (Though I would suggest that "LOTS OF SPECULATION" is not a wise goal in a trilogy conclusion.)

Those are my thoughts looking on from the outside. Only BioWare knows what actually happened. I'm curious to know what stresses lead to this mess, honestly. It's probably an interesting behind-the-scenes story of its own.


I agree completely.

As I've said elsewhere, I really do think another element of this is the lack of a more "detached" editor involved in the writing. Books have editors, movies have producers, but Bioware has leads who are themselves directly engaged in some of the writing.

When you're that close to a project for so long (especially when you're pouring so much into it to make a deadline), it's impossible to take a step back and look at what you've created with any kind of clarity. Everything is just this big blur and it's hard to really tell what's good and what's bad any more. This is the point at which an editor would step in and say "No, this doesn't work" or "Yes, run with that", but this just wasn't a resource available to the team.

The combination of EA's insistence on tight deadlines (which has hurt more developers than just Bioware) as well as the lack of this basic quality control check means that the writing team really was working with both hands tied behind their backs. It's pretty surprising that the rest of the game was as good as what we got.

I've always felt similarly about DA2. DA2 was a mess and I did not enjoy playing it, but at the same time, given the extremely short development cycle Bioware had to adhere to, it really is a remarkable game. They cranked that thing out in about a year as I recall. It wound up ultimately hurting their brand, I think, but I bring it up only to illustrate the kinds of contstraints Bioware is working with.

#82
CrasVox

CrasVox
  • Members
  • 209 messages
the ending does seem sloppy, and unfinished. Like it was rushed, it feels like it also changed (indoctrination), there are story elements that had been introduced that seemed to suggest where the ending was going to be, but then later ignored (dark energy), and I think it is one reason why it feels just so far out of place.

I dont fault them for putting the ending off for last. Mainly because to give them more time to flush it out, make it tight, make it quality, make it memorable. But instead they failed. I don't know if it is because they just kept kicking the can further down the road, or the writing staff bit off far more than they could chew, and when it came time to push the thing out the door, the best they could do was this.

#83
Abisco

Abisco
  • Members
  • 430 messages
No, the leaked script came out. As such they had to change the ending. That's why he was making a new ending... he was rushed for time due to the leak.

#84
bobito64

bobito64
  • Members
  • 182 messages

Joccaren wrote...

Personally, I think they changed the ending some way through for some reason or other. Leaks? IDK. But it was changed.
All through ME1 and 2 there is evidence of a Dark Energy Subplot. That is completely dropped in ME3 - not even a mention of it.
Likely they had planned for a Dark Energy Ending, but changed it to singularity due to either majority vote in the design room, and/or the leak, and/or some other reason. After that, they rushed the ending in November. More time was needed to make it work, but sadly that time wasn't given. Not trying to sound boastful here, and I honestly don't know how busy it was for the writers leading up to the release, but there was a good few months before the game was released. I could have written an in depth plotline for the ending given a couple of months, or even just one. I don't get why it was so rushed, but if they release some good ending DLC I won't mind.


That is precisely what they had in mind. Original lead writer Drew Karpyshyn explained it in a recent interview:

"The Reapers as a whole were 'nations' of people who had fused together in the most horrific way possible to help find a way to stop the spread of the Dark Energy. The real reason for the Human Reaper was supposed to be he Reapers saving throw because they had run out of time. Humanity in Mass Effect is supposedly unique because of its genetic diversity and represented the universe's best chance at stopping Dark Energy's spread."


http://www.strategyi...fect-3-endings 

That's obviously just a brief summary of what would have been a more in depth, sci fi ending.

Abisco wrote...

No, the leaked script came out. As such they had to change the ending. That's why he was making a new ending... he was rushed for time due to the leak.


If that's the case then they made a huge blunder, since the content of the leaks wasn't widely reported and was easy to avoid. 

Modifié par bobito64, 21 mars 2012 - 04:11 .


#85
Zing Freelancer

Zing Freelancer
  • Members
  • 627 messages

Militarized wrote...
I do not view this as slander, I view it as honest questions we should be asking... have at everyone. 


Your question is irrelevant, pointing fingers will get us no where. What important is what BioWare is willing to do and if they will repeat their mistake. While I was not very found of DA2, ME3 is a fabulous game that took a kick to the quad in the last 10 minutes, the 90% of the game was REALLY GOOD, but the ending *face palm*


Question 1) Can BioWare deliver an ending to ME3 that will satisfy their fans and most importantly themselv?
Question 2) Will BioWare repeat the same mistake again in the next game?

Time will show...

Modifié par Zing Freelancer, 21 mars 2012 - 04:16 .


#86
Stanley Woo

Stanley Woo
  • BioWare Employees
  • 8 368 messages
This is a reminder that disrespecting our developers is a severe violation of our forum rules. Most of the posts have been okay, but there are some that cross the line so please be careful of getting too hyperbolic in your comments. Thank you.

#87
Danilo Luis

Danilo Luis
  • Members
  • 101 messages
@Stanley Woo
And what about disrespecting your loyal fans? I guess your devs should all be banned from Bioware.

#88
Zing Freelancer

Zing Freelancer
  • Members
  • 627 messages

Danilo Luis wrote...

@Stanley Woo
And what about disrespecting your loyal fans? I guess your devs should all be banned from Bioware.


I am your fellow fan, would it be asking for too much if I asked you to behave a little more mature?
No need to throw stones at anyone, it is unlikely that Stanley Woo can give you the answer you are looking for.

Modifié par Zing Freelancer, 21 mars 2012 - 04:19 .


#89
ahandsomeshark

ahandsomeshark
  • Members
  • 3 250 messages
They were given a ridiculous development schedule. ME2 came out in 2010. ME3 was supposed to be done before the end of 2011??? Plus they had pretty massive DLC content for ME2 they were working on (all together the DLC, including Kasumi added like 6-7 hours to ME2 which is a lot. Plus ME2 for PS3. Considering all that, and only about a 2 year development period it's surprising the game is as good as it is otherwise.

#90
HaesoME3

HaesoME3
  • Members
  • 165 messages

Danilo Luis wrote...

@Stanley Woo
And what about disrespecting your loyal fans? I guess your devs should all be banned from Bioware.


"Not an A,B,C ending." and other shenanigans and lies were a kick in the quad as it were.

#91
Zing Freelancer

Zing Freelancer
  • Members
  • 627 messages

ahandsomeshark wrote...

They were given a ridiculous development schedule. ME2 came out in 2010. ME3 was supposed to be done before the end of 2011??? Plus they had pretty massive DLC content for ME2 they were working on (all together the DLC, including Kasumi added like 6-7 hours to ME2 which is a lot. Plus ME2 for PS3. Considering all that, and only about a 2 year development period it's surprising the game is as good as it is otherwise.


While you bring up a valid point, I suspect pre-production phase on Mass Effect 3 started prior to release of Mass Effect 2. Full production probably began after the release of ME2 while a very small team worked on DLC content. Then there is SWTOR and EA with their ridiculous demands, I have no proof but I do suspect that SWTOR might have had influence on release schedule of ME3.

If anyone, it's EA who should be receiving a lot of flak for the negative reaction of their costumers.

Modifié par Zing Freelancer, 21 mars 2012 - 04:26 .


#92
majormajormmajor

majormajormmajor
  • Members
  • 649 messages
That's right. Devs are above criticism.

#93
jimmyw404

jimmyw404
  • Members
  • 748 messages
There's no reason to trust anything Hudson says after this. Many of the statements he made prior to the release were so contradictory to reality that it's borderline trolling.

The best one is the derogatory way he described "ABC endings"

#94
Danilo Luis

Danilo Luis
  • Members
  • 101 messages

Zing Freelancer wrote...

Danilo Luis wrote...

@Stanley Woo
And what about disrespecting your loyal fans? I guess your devs should all be banned from Bioware.


I am your fellow fan, would it be asking for too much if I asked you to behave a little more mature?
No need to throw stones at anyone, it is unlikely that Stanley Woo can give you the answer you are looking for.


I'm here in the ME3 forums since two days after the release, and I'm being civil until today. I'm just tired, right now, and I don't really care anymore. We are just being disrespected by the company. Candy words are not the same as respectful or mature. They need to give us a position. They need to drop the "lots of speculation" politics when dealing with their fans. We need to know what will happen, so we can just move on.

#95
ahandsomeshark

ahandsomeshark
  • Members
  • 3 250 messages

Zing Freelancer wrote...

ahandsomeshark wrote...

They were given a ridiculous development schedule. ME2 came out in 2010. ME3 was supposed to be done before the end of 2011??? Plus they had pretty massive DLC content for ME2 they were working on (all together the DLC, including Kasumi added like 6-7 hours to ME2 which is a lot. Plus ME2 for PS3. Considering all that, and only about a 2 year development period it's surprising the game is as good as it is otherwise.


While you bring up a valid point, I suspect pre-production phase on Mass Effect 3 started prior to release of Mass Effect 2. Full production probably began after the release of ME2 while a very small team worked on DLC content. Then there is SWTOR and EA with their ridiculous demands, I have no proof but I do suspect that SWTOR might have had influence on release schedule of ME3.

If anyone, it's EA who should be receiving a lot of flak for the negative reaction of their costumers.


Yeah you're probably right, but either way when you consider the massive overhauls to the gameplay + writing a whole story for a series as huge as ME3, even if they started 6 months before ME2 came out. It does seem like a short time, especially when you consider the number of minor characters and story-lines that had to be woven in, and scheduling and actual programming and etc. And yeah like you said we have no proof, but I guess I just have so much faith in bioware (and because certain sections were so well done and so emotionally touching) that it's hard for me to believe that they just thought this was the ending the series deserved.

#96
Zing Freelancer

Zing Freelancer
  • Members
  • 627 messages

jimmyw404 wrote...

There's no reason to trust anything Hudson says after this. Many of the statements he made prior to the release were so contradictory to reality that it's borderline trolling.

The best one is the derogatory way he described "ABC endings"


Yeah, that one is going to stick to him like flies stick to poo, at least for a while. But if you knew how game industry works, you would understand that developers might have a plan and ambitions and be more then happy to teas their fans with them, but if publisher comes and says "NO", they have to obey. Words are like wild birds, once they are released from their cage, there is no taking them back.

#97
CrasVox

CrasVox
  • Members
  • 209 messages

bobito64 wrote...

Joccaren wrote...

Personally, I think they changed the ending some way through for some reason or other. Leaks? IDK. But it was changed.
All through ME1 and 2 there is evidence of a Dark Energy Subplot. That is completely dropped in ME3 - not even a mention of it.
Likely they had planned for a Dark Energy Ending, but changed it to singularity due to either majority vote in the design room, and/or the leak, and/or some other reason. After that, they rushed the ending in November. More time was needed to make it work, but sadly that time wasn't given. Not trying to sound boastful here, and I honestly don't know how busy it was for the writers leading up to the release, but there was a good few months before the game was released. I could have written an in depth plotline for the ending given a couple of months, or even just one. I don't get why it was so rushed, but if they release some good ending DLC I won't mind.


That is precisely what they had in mind. Original lead writer Drew Karpyshyn explained it in a recent interview:

"The Reapers as a whole were 'nations' of people who had fused together in the most horrific way possible to help find a way to stop the spread of the Dark Energy. The real reason for the Human Reaper was supposed to be he Reapers saving throw because they had run out of time. Humanity in Mass Effect is supposedly unique because of its genetic diversity and represented the universe's best chance at stopping Dark Energy's spread."

http://www.strategyi...fect-3-endings 

That's obviously just a brief summary of what would have been a more in depth, sci fi ending.

Abisco wrote...

No, the leaked script came out. As such they had to change the ending. That's why he was making a new ending... he was rushed for time due to the leak.


If that's the case then they made a huge blunder, since the content of the leaks wasn't widely reported and was easy to avoid. 


If the change was all due to the leak, then they made a terrible calculation.  I for one never came across the leaked ending.  I heard about it, in passing, mainly in the talk that BW changed the ending because of the leak.

Was it really that big of a deal?  Is it that big a twist that it is dark energy?  anyone who played ME2 knew Dark Energy was going to play a part in ME3.  Instead what they did is make that whole part of ME2 now seem silly by not addressing it at all in ME3.

It is clear to me.  Bioware screwed this up in about as big a way as they could. 

#98
byzantine horse

byzantine horse
  • Members
  • 359 messages
The ending was weird (more-so than outright bad imo) but this is what really is weird. Sometime during these 8 years of developing the ME universe they must have thought out how to end the whole thing, you plan ahead for such things.

Edit: If it was changed due to leaks... then whomever leaked it should burn in hell for one year for every angry character typed on these forums and elsewhere over this.

Modifié par byzantine horse, 21 mars 2012 - 04:34 .


#99
BellaStrega

BellaStrega
  • Members
  • 1 007 messages

Dhraconus wrote...

I've been struggling with the fact that they apparently started ME1 without knowing where the trilogy was going. They honestly should have had the whole primary story arc, major plot points, and lore more or less planned out before ME1 shipped and stuck with it. This includes the ending of all 3 games, but especially the ending of the trilogy.

You don't start a major project with the plan "let's just wing it and make it up as we go."


Actually...

you've never been involved in creating a long-term project with multiple installments, I see.

To clarify, it's often the case that broad strokes are mapped out from the beginning, or the idea of what the ending will be from the beginning, but things can change over time, teams can change. Something that looks like a brilliant idea in 2007 might seem rather trite in 2011 thanks to movie or other video game releases. It's not always like a trilogy of books with a single author, where you can maintain a singular vision across the board.

Modifié par BellaStrega, 21 mars 2012 - 04:42 .


#100
theshuo

theshuo
  • Members
  • 44 messages
Yeah. This is really the issue that eats away the trust I once had in Bioware.

Not having any idea how the series was going to end, yet promising in many pre-release interviews how our choices will play out, etc.

Then having the endings done, and somehow nobody thinking that this was a mistake. If they showed the ending to 10 people who had played since ME1, it'd be unbelievable nobody would speak up about how confusing it was.

The fact that Bioware allowed this decision to happen, all the while raising the hopes of long-time fans with false promises really damaged their reputation, and no matter what ending DLC comes out, whether it's free or not, I won't be able to preorder another game from them and will always wait for fan (not critic) reviews before giving them any money.

Sad.