350 réponses à ce sujet

[majormajormmajor]

Cody211282 wrote...

You know both of you are making your respective sides look like a bunch of crazies right?

Asking that one substantiate some fairly outrageous claims is crazy talk now?

[AtreiyaN7]

GodChildInTheMachine wrote...

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

GodChildInTheMachine wrote...


There is clearly is no parallel between Mass Effect and I Have No Mouth And I Must Scream...

I don't think there's a relative diagnostic hierarchy of fictional A.I. personality disorders.

And Angry is right about the endings to the video game version. There were multiple stages of endings with drastically different results and implications - not just ones you had to imagine.

Which has nothing to do with what I'm talking about, as I was using the actual short story as an example of a truly bleak, hopeless ending.

Yeah, but Harlan Ellison obviously wrote it with the intention of making it as absolutely bleak as possible. Like existential terror bleak. It's no surprise that there would be a gap between that and a simple galactic dark age.

Of course he did - he was piling on the despair on purpose. And I'm pointing out that for all the claims of bleakness in ME3's endings, they're nowhere near that dark. Are the relays destroyed? Sure - and there's even probably going to be a some degree of post-war suffering in the immediate aftermath, not to mention interstellar travel being effectively shut down for a long time.

However, even in a worst-case scenario, I whould think that new relays can be built in time. Again, the protheans were close to building their own relays, and per Aethyta's ME2 dialogue, the asari might just have been able to pull it off. Now if you're absolutely intent upon imagining the worst possible outcome, you can decide to imagine a bleak future, just like The Angry One seems to want to do with her scenario.

But projecting every negative thing you might personally believe has happened isn't quite the same as the endings actually being written and intended as being bleak. You'd have to check with Mac Walters and company on that, but I kind of doubt that they meant for it to be bleak. As for me, I can envision hope where other are intent upon seeing despair. If finding the worst in it is what you want, it's certianly your right to do so.

[ramenbito]

Because simply the ending fits their Shepards state of mind, thus they like the ending.

[moater boat]

I think there are three main catagories.

Some people are just like "Oh this is a dark ending. I like dark endings and I am going to criticize those who don't"

Some people just like being in the minority, you this everywhere.

But I think there are a lot of people who like it because for them, the emotions that are shown in each scene are more important to them than a coherent plot, and there is nothing wrong with that.

[Cody211282]

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

Cody211282 wrote...

majormajormmajor wrote...

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

How do you know those are lies? You do a disservice to your side of the fence with such ignorance.

You know, the burden of proof is usually on the one making the accusation. Your disservice is being done to truth and common sense.

You know both of you are making your respective sides look like a bunch of crazies right?

I am not. I'm saying immediately calling things lies is ignorance. For either side.

That was more for Major and Hench.

Mostly they are just saying things to ****** the other one off at this point in time.

[HenchxNarf]

Cody211282 wrote...

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

Cody211282 wrote...

majormajormmajor wrote...

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

How do you know those are lies? You do a disservice to your side of the fence with such ignorance.

You know, the burden of proof is usually on the one making the accusation. Your disservice is being done to truth and common sense.

You know both of you are making your respective sides look like a bunch of crazies right?

I am not. I'm saying immediately calling things lies is ignorance. For either side.

That was more for Major and Hench.

Mostly they are just saying things to ****** the other one off at this point in time.

That's why I quit responding. I realized he was baiting me, and I let him. Which is bad on me, but lesson learned.

[saracen16]

moater boat wrote...

I think there are three main catagories.

Some people are just like "Oh this is a dark ending. I like dark endings and I am going to criticize those who don't"

Some people just like being in the minority, you this everywhere.

But I think there are a lot of people who like it because for them, the emotions that are shown in each scene are more important to them than a coherent plot, and there is nothing wrong with that.

I guess I can generalize about all the people who hate the endings as a bunch of self-entitled brats who don't have an attention span longer than 10 minutes...

Then again, why bother? Because generalizations don't work. Stop trolling.

Modifié par saracen16, 21 mars 2012 - 11:13 .

[saracen16]

The Angry One wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote...

And why do you assume the rest of the races didn't plan for something like this?  They went to the Sol system knowing the risks, any decent military force would take precautions of this nature.  To find fault with the state of the galaxy at the end of this war you basically have to say the Reapers shouldn't exist.

They fully expected to return home. Listen to Wrex. Listen to Tali.
They did not go in expecting some moron would obliterate the relay network and strand them.
They do NOT have the ability to sustain themselves in the long term, and neither does Earth without outside aid.

Wrex and Tali are two people out of millions.  Their desire to go home in no way indicates that their respective militaries decided to be completely stupid and not pack for a long trip.
And yes, they more than likley have the ability to sustain themselves while they work their ways back to their own planets.  Nothing outside of wishful thinking suggests otherwise.

You see this is what I mean about people making up their own endings. This is what you're doing. Right now.
Nothing indicates this. Nothing. I am speaking of what we see and what we're told in game while you're engaging in wild speculation that "oh well they must have had the clairvoyance to prepare!".
Sorry, doesn't work that way.

And what's wrong with speculation? For all I know, you are also speculating and grasping at straws. Everyone is. It's just that you are being immature about it and passing your opinion as fact.

[mothbanquet]

Let's just set aside the fact that some people like the ending, because any number of people are bound to be happy with a certain outcome whatever that may be. I would be just as annoyed if Shepard donned shades, gave Harbinger ten of the best and jetted back to Rannoch for tea and sex.

The real issue I personally have with the ending is that for a game based on choice and personal experience, to be offered a a rigid outcome with no relevance to the choices I've made throughout the game just feels like a kick in the teeth. It caters for only a very small section of fans and, unfortunately, you can't expect to appeal to a minority and expect the majority to simply be happy with it.

I respect the fact that other people may be happy with the endings as they are, so I say why change them? Why not simply ADD to them? Address our complaints and try to find an outcome that rewards the thousands upon thousands of fans on both sides of the argument that have followed the series for so many years.

This is not impossible, and Bioware have done this effectively before in the Dragon Age games. Everyone needs to stop slinging mud at each other because we're all in the same boat as consumers; who knows, with the next game, people may find themselves on the opposite side of the fence...

[Chk-2000]

mothbanquet wrote...

Let's just set aside the fact that some people like the ending, because any number of people are bound to be happy with a certain outcome whatever that may be. I would be just as annoyed if Shepard donned shades, gave Harbinger ten of the best and jetted back to Rannoch for tea and sex.

The real issue I personally have with the ending is that for a game based on choice and personal experience, to be offered a a rigid outcome with no relevance to the choices I've made throughout the game just feels like a kick in the teeth. It caters for only a very small section of fans and, unfortunately, you can't expect to appeal to a minority and expect the majority to simply be happy with it.

I respect the fact that other people may be happy with the endings as they are, so I say why change them? Why not simply ADD to them? Address our complaints and try to find an outcome that rewards the thousands upon thousands of fans on both sides of the argument that have followed the series for so many years.

This is not impossible, and Bioware have done this effectively before in the Dragon Age games. Everyone needs to stop slinging mud at each other because we're all in the same boat as consumers; who knows, with the next game, people may find themselves on the opposite side of the fence...

Well said.

[Klimax]

I am *content* with ending. I could see where is Starchild coming from (Neal Asher's Polity novels helped regarding AI Singularity).

Not overly bestes of all nor the worst as there were some bits missing like quite abrupt run by Joker, where although are few explanation possible one can't decide which is right as insufficent info is given; or Green ending doing its work and transmission.

Hm. Not sure if in the end I fit into group who likes, but I see nothing to get angry about. (Angry? About game? There are only few things worth like DRM or SP-MP rel, but not ending itself.)

Maybe I like it, but wouldn't mind expansion of it.

[Poison_Berrie]

HenchxNarf wrote...

I have no seen one pro-ending person threaten someone's life, call for people to be fired, or use any sort of violent tactic against anyone. Yes, namecalling has happened. But nothing in comparison to the violence.

I can say the seem thing for the anti-ending side, but I still don't doubt that they exist. Likewise you shouldn't expect your side to be exempt of the same behavior.

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

However, even in a worst-case scenario, I whould think that new relays can be built in time. Again, the protheans were close to building their own relays, and per Aethyta's ME2 dialogue, the asari might just have been able to pull it off. Now if you're absolutely intent upon imagining the worst possible outcome, you can decide to imagine a bleak future, just like The Angry One seems to want to do with her scenario.

That's not what she's saying. She's talking about breaking stagnation, not that they could build new ones, but that they should try to build new ones. Besides it's decade and probably centuries before they have the infrastructure for that again, granted that they don't become extinct for some reason before that. 

[Klimax]

mothbanquet wrote...

Let's just set aside the fact that some people like the ending, because any number of people are bound to be happy with a certain outcome whatever that may be. I would be just as annoyed if Shepard donned shades, gave Harbinger ten of the best and jetted back to Rannoch for tea and sex.

The real issue I personally have with the ending is that for a game based on choice and personal experience, to be offered a a rigid outcome with no relevance to the choices I've made throughout the game just feels like a kick in the teeth. It caters for only a very small section of fans and, unfortunately, you can't expect to appeal to a minority and expect the majority to simply be happy with it.

I respect the fact that other people may be happy with the endings as they are, so I say why change them? Why not simply ADD to them? Address our complaints and try to find an outcome that rewards the thousands upon thousands of fans on both sides of the argument that have followed the series for so many years.

This is not impossible, and Bioware have done this effectively before in the Dragon Age games. Everyone needs to stop slinging mud at each other because we're all in the same boat as consumers; who knows, with the next game, people may find themselves on the opposite side of the fence...

Reasonable people still exist on forum, all hope for peace is not yet lost!

[KerrahnRebs]

I didn't mind the ending at all personally, and I'm not close-minded towards the opinions of people who hate it - in fact one of my friends really hate it and the next time I see him I'm going to ask him why.

Mind you, I agree in some ways with the haters and would like to see 2 things changed if Bioware ever decide to change the ending:

1. Explain why Joker was in FTL travel and why your crew were back onboard. I assumed he sent down a shuttle to look for survivors (no idea why he was running though) but a scene to actually clarify this part would be better.

2. As many people have said, text-boxes to explain what happened to everyone after the battle.

Otherwise, I personally think leave it as it is.
I enjoy writing myself and would love the opportunity to work as a writer in the gaming industry, and would personally hate the idea of being forced to change an ending I created, but could understand if people didn't think the ending was explained enough.

[saracen16]

mothbanquet wrote...

Let's just set aside the fact that some people like the ending, because any number of people are bound to be happy with a certain outcome whatever that may be. I would be just as annoyed if Shepard donned shades, gave Harbinger ten of the best and jetted back to Rannoch for tea and sex.

The real issue I personally have with the ending is that for a game based on choice and personal experience, to be offered a a rigid outcome with no relevance to the choices I've made throughout the game just feels like a kick in the teeth. It caters for only a very small section of fans and, unfortunately, you can't expect to appeal to a minority and expect the majority to simply be happy with it.

I respect the fact that other people may be happy with the endings as they are, so I say why change them? Why not simply ADD to them? Address our complaints and try to find an outcome that rewards the thousands upon thousands of fans on both sides of the argument that have followed the series for so many years.

This is not impossible, and Bioware have done this effectively before in the Dragon Age games. Everyone needs to stop slinging mud at each other because we're all in the same boat as consumers; who knows, with the next game, people may find themselves on the opposite side of the fence...

Additions are also changes, and to force it on the community has ethical implications: a lot of us like the endings just the way they are.

[mothbanquet]

saracen16 wrote...

Additions are also changes, and to force it on the community has ethical implications: a lot of us like the endings just the way they are.

Yes, but let's face it, the numbers of people who are unhappy vastly outweigh the happy ones and such a thing can't be ignored.  This isn't a vocal minority we're talking about, or a small extreme movement.  This is a huge part of Bioware's fanbase and as I said, to only please a minority at the expense of a majority is a little mad.

Again however, I'm not talking about completely removing what some people are happy with, rather trying for a middle way that can satisfy every one who has invested so much time and money into the product.  At the very least, I feel Bioware's exceptional reputation for storytelling is as stake and the last thing I want to see is ME3's legacy reduced to...well...this.

But I digress.  My main point is that hurling insults back and forth degrades all of us gamers in general and no one, be it EA or Bioware, will take either side seriously if it continues.

[GodChildInTheMachine]

AtreiyaN7 wrote...



Of course he did - he was piling on the despair on purpose. And I'm pointing out that for all the claims of bleakness in ME3's endings, they're nowhere near that dark. Are the relays destroyed? Sure - and there's even probably going to be a some degree of post-war suffering in the immediate aftermath, not to mention interstellar travel being effectively shut down for a long time.

However, even in a worst-case scenario, I whould think that new relays can be built in time. Again, the protheans were close to building their own relays, and per Aethyta's ME2 dialogue, the asari might just have been able to pull it off. Now if you're absolutely intent upon imagining the worst possible outcome, you can decide to imagine a bleak future, just like The Angry One seems to want to do with her scenario.

But projecting every negative thing you might personally believe has happened isn't quite the same as the endings actually being written and intended as being bleak. You'd have to check with Mac Walters and company on that, but I kind of doubt that they meant for it to be bleak. As for me, I can envision hope where other are intent upon seeing despair. If finding the worst in it is what you want, it's certianly your right to do so.

That is one of my biggest problems with the ending.

Namely, I didn't pay $70 to imagine one for myself.

As it is, you can say whatever you want about what might happen, so can Angry One, and so can I. I'm just not interested in doing it, because it's pure speculation with no basis. If I really have to delve that deeply into things in order to trick myself into believing how the game ends, I have to take into account that the FTL speed in Mass Effect 3 is whatever factor of the speed of light, Rannoch is x amount of light years away from Earth etc. Even if I wanted to do that, mathematically it would still mean that the military forces at Earth are thousands of years away from home. Assuming they could build new relays tomorrow they would still have to make the initial trip to the recieving end of each one in order to make the network.

That's not my point with this particular post, though. The thing is, I shouldn't have to think about this stuff. There is a reason I pay BioWare to do it for me. I do have a fairly verdant  imagination and in actuality I am a paid writer... but why would I want to spend my creative energies on something that I pay BioWare to do? Which is to entertain me with their. story.

No matter how you cut it, whether or not you like the themes or ideas present in the ending, you have to admit that it is a creative cop out. What if Ellison had ended I Have No Mouth And I Must Scream the second the captives enter the ice cave and told you to infer what happens next? Would you consider it to be as great a story?

Modifié par GodChildInTheMachine, 21 mars 2012 - 11:55 .

[DemGeth]

mmm the level of civil discourse in this thread
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[Chk-2000]

saracen16 wrote...

Additions are also changes, and to force it on the community has ethical implications: a lot of us like the endings just the way they are.

I see your point. But seen like that, every DLC is an addition and changes something somebody might have liked in the game. That would mean a studio would never be right to offer DLC or Expansion Packs to a game after it has been released.

[DemGeth]

Sion1138 wrote...

A writer can not expect to have free hand with something like this. This is not a singular story but a trilogy. Told over the span of five years, with a mass of people following it. There is a certain responsibility there and "artistic license" must be limited. The mentality that says: "This is his story, why should he change it?" or "This is Bioware's game, not yours!" is nonsensical. It is our game as well as theirs and we do not deserve such an utterly depressing conclusion. When you're creating something you know will affect people's live, you'd better be careful with it.

...No......it's theirs.  

You can not purchase it....but it's theirs.  

[saracen16]

Chk-2000 wrote...

saracen16 wrote...

Additions are also changes, and to force it on the community has ethical implications: a lot of us like the endings just the way they are.

I see your point. But seen like that, every DLC is an addition and changes something somebody might have liked in the game. That would mean a studio would never be right to offer DLC or Expansion Packs to a game after it has been released.

I suppose a DLC could work: it doesn't have to be forced on those who don't like the endings.

Still, it remains to be seen what BioWare does. Only they can decide what to do. I imagine that an alternative ending will be a final DLC.

[sadako]

I'm a walking billboard. And I'm seriously cool for liking the endings because it was made by Bioware! Worship me!

Or not.