350 réponses à ce sujet

[Edje Edgar]

111987 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

111987 wrote...

This is the Star Child's logic. You do not have to accept it. I never even said I accepted it.

Yeah but you see, Shepard has to accept it. That's the whole problem here.

You only accept it if you choose Synthesis. The Catalyst doesn't even like Control or Destroy, because they go against his logic.

You also accept if if you destroy them, because it kills ALL synthetic life. He then says it's only a temporary solution because synthetics will be rebuild by your children. There is no way to just destroy the reapers if you don't believe his BS. Controll just makes you the new starchild, which just reaffirms his premise that a guardian of galactic order is even needed.

[Geneaux486]

The Angry One wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote...

And why do you assume the rest of the races didn't plan for something like this?  They went to the Sol system knowing the risks, any decent military force would take precautions of this nature.  To find fault with the state of the galaxy at the end of this war you basically have to say the Reapers shouldn't exist.

They fully expected to return home. Listen to Wrex. Listen to Tali.
They did not go in expecting some moron would obliterate the relay network and strand them.
They do NOT have the ability to sustain themselves in the long term, and neither does Earth without outside aid.

Wrex and Tali are two people out of millions.  Their desire to go home in no way indicates that their respective militaries decided to be completely stupid and not pack for a long trip.
And yes, they more than likley have the ability to sustain themselves while they work their ways back to their own planets.  Nothing outside of wishful thinking suggests otherwise.

[Russalka]

I am glad that this is mostly a discussion instead of an exchange of insults, could always be worse.

Personally I liked the idea of the endings, just not the execution.

Modifié par Russalka, 21 mars 2012 - 08:42 .

[GodChildInTheMachine]

I've only run into a couple of people who were willing to address my personal grievances with rational arguments. Some people do a fair job of trying to defend the Space Racist Demiurge's logic and the general premise of the ending, and I definitely give them props for making such an earnest effort.

There's a huge disconnect between the two sides though, and it shows in almost any debate of the topic. People just aren't willing to discuss it on each other's terms.

The people who dislike the ending want to talk about how it is illogical, narratively flawed and done with gameplay mechanics that we were elicitly promised not to get.

The people who like it usually want to talk about how it is fitting with a theme of sacrifice or has philosophical implications. Very rarely will you see someone try to defend it in terms of logic and narration. Then there are a few who actually like that it is left to their imaginations - lucky them, the ending was written for the benefit of this particular taste.

Unfortunately very little earnest debating goes on where each side will address the other's arguments by the terms which define it, so little goes on past "it's my opinion so you can't tell me I'm wrong".

[Tony208]

Maybe they're ignoring one thing or another and using their wild imagination.

Maybe liking one part of the ending is enough.
Maybe some people like trying to fill in plot holes themselves.

Some just see completely different things. Who knows.

Modifié par Tony208, 21 mars 2012 - 08:43 .

[FemmeShep]

Geneaux486 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote...

And why do you assume the rest of the races didn't plan for something like this?  They went to the Sol system knowing the risks, any decent military force would take precautions of this nature.  To find fault with the state of the galaxy at the end of this war you basically have to say the Reapers shouldn't exist.

They fully expected to return home. Listen to Wrex. Listen to Tali.
They did not go in expecting some moron would obliterate the relay network and strand them.
They do NOT have the ability to sustain themselves in the long term, and neither does Earth without outside aid.

Wrex and Tali are two people out of millions.  Their desire to go home in no way indicates that their respective militaries decided to be completely stupid and not pack for a long trip.
And yes, they more than likley have the ability to sustain themselves while they work their ways back to their own planets.  Nothing outside of wishful thinking suggests otherwise.

You are still ignoring how far it would actually get them. 

[The Angry One]

Geneaux486 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote...

And why do you assume the rest of the races didn't plan for something like this?  They went to the Sol system knowing the risks, any decent military force would take precautions of this nature.  To find fault with the state of the galaxy at the end of this war you basically have to say the Reapers shouldn't exist.

They fully expected to return home. Listen to Wrex. Listen to Tali.
They did not go in expecting some moron would obliterate the relay network and strand them.
They do NOT have the ability to sustain themselves in the long term, and neither does Earth without outside aid.

Wrex and Tali are two people out of millions.  Their desire to go home in no way indicates that their respective militaries decided to be completely stupid and not pack for a long trip.
And yes, they more than likley have the ability to sustain themselves while they work their ways back to their own planets.  Nothing outside of wishful thinking suggests otherwise.

You see this is what I mean about people making up their own endings. This is what you're doing. Right now.
Nothing indicates this. Nothing. I am speaking of what we see and what we're told in game while you're engaging in wild speculation that "oh well they must have had the clairvoyance to prepare!".
Sorry, doesn't work that way.

[Cyph3rX]

Geneaux486 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote...

Please see any number of topics on this. Their FTL drives will not help, they require fuel, constant static discharges and maintenance. Their rations will run out, and then they'll be left with what? Nothing. Especially the Turians, who will have to raid Quarian lifeships to survive.

FTL will help, fuel will not be in short supply, rations will not run out as long as someone, anyone, knows anything about agriculture.

FTL is 12 light years a day, that will get you around the local cluster and the local cluster only.
Fuel not in short supply? Excuse me? They have thousands of ships to fuel and no infrastructure to refuel. ZERO. NONE. The Reapers destroyed it all.
Knowing about agriculture and having somewhere viable to grow crops are two different things, a few agriculture ships aren't going to feed the millions of crewmembers, refugees and soldiers left. Remember, liveships can only feed Quarians and Turians and probably don't have enough for both.

And why do you assume the rest of the races didn't plan for something like this?  They went to the Sol system knowing the risks, any decent military force would take precautions of this nature.  To find fault with the state of the galaxy at the end of this war you basically have to say the Reapers shouldn't exist.

You either just watched the endings on youtube without even playing the game, or your brain was turned off until the elevator started going up, or you're just trolling. No one was prepared for this, that was the whole point of the game.

[FemmeShep]

GodChildInTheMachine wrote...

I've only run into a couple of people who were willing to address my personal grievances with rational arguments. Some people do a fair job of trying to defend the Space Racist Demiurge's logic and the general premise of the ending, and I definitely give them props for making such an earnest effort.

There's a huge disconnect between the two sides though, and it shows in almost any debate of the topic. People just aren't willing to discuss it on each other's terms.

The people who dislike the ending want to talk about how it is illogical, narratively flawed and done with gameplay mechanics that we were elicitly promised not to get.

The people who like it usually want to talk about how it is fitting with a theme of sacrifice or has philosophical implications. Very rarely will you see someone try to defend it in terms of logic and narration. Then there are a few who actually like that it is left to their imaginations - lucky them, the ending was written for the benefit of this particular taste.

Unfortunately very little earnest debating goes on where each side will address the other's arguments by the terms which define it, so little goes on past "it's my opinion so you can't tell me I'm wrong".

Leaving an ending up for imagination only works if the set up itself is good to leave the audience to fill in the blanks. This Mass Effect 3 was not. 

[111987]

FemmeShep wrote...


For that matter, are you actually defending the dumb logic that Star Child presents as the reason for the Reapers? Are you REALLY okay with how that entire ending sets itself up in context to the rest of the plot. I get you like the stuff that comes after that (symbolically or whatever)....

That's a topic for another thread. Or PM discussion.

[Geneaux486]

Cyph3rX wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote...

Please see any number of topics on this. Their FTL drives will not help, they require fuel, constant static discharges and maintenance. Their rations will run out, and then they'll be left with what? Nothing. Especially the Turians, who will have to raid Quarian lifeships to survive.

FTL will help, fuel will not be in short supply, rations will not run out as long as someone, anyone, knows anything about agriculture.

FTL is 12 light years a day, that will get you around the local cluster and the local cluster only.
Fuel not in short supply? Excuse me? They have thousands of ships to fuel and no infrastructure to refuel. ZERO. NONE. The Reapers destroyed it all.
Knowing about agriculture and having somewhere viable to grow crops are two different things, a few agriculture ships aren't going to feed the millions of crewmembers, refugees and soldiers left. Remember, liveships can only feed Quarians and Turians and probably don't have enough for both.

And why do you assume the rest of the races didn't plan for something like this?  They went to the Sol system knowing the risks, any decent military force would take precautions of this nature.  To find fault with the state of the galaxy at the end of this war you basically have to say the Reapers shouldn't exist.

You either just watched the endings on youtube without even playing the game, or your brain was turned off until the elevator started going up, or you're just trolling. No one was prepared for this, that was the whole point of the game.

No one was prepared for what?  The final battle?  Of course they were, that was the whole point of the game.  And you accuse me of not paying attention? 

[Tony208]

Geneaux486 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote...

And why do you assume the rest of the races didn't plan for something like this?  They went to the Sol system knowing the risks, any decent military force would take precautions of this nature.  To find fault with the state of the galaxy at the end of this war you basically have to say the Reapers shouldn't exist.

They fully expected to return home. Listen to Wrex. Listen to Tali.
They did not go in expecting some moron would obliterate the relay network and strand them.
They do NOT have the ability to sustain themselves in the long term, and neither does Earth without outside aid.

Wrex and Tali are two people out of millions.  Their desire to go home in no way indicates that their respective militaries decided to be completely stupid and not pack for a long trip.
And yes, they more than likley have the ability to sustain themselves while they work their ways back to their own planets.  Nothing outside of wishful thinking suggests otherwise.

You are kidding yourself if you think they have enough to get home. No one carries around years of supplies when you have mass relays.

[FemmeShep]

111987 wrote...

FemmeShep wrote...


For that matter, are you actually defending the dumb logic that Star Child presents as the reason for the Reapers? Are you REALLY okay with how that entire ending sets itself up in context to the rest of the plot. I get you like the stuff that comes after that (symbolically or whatever)....

That's a topic for another thread. Or PM discussion.

Well I mean, I feel like you can't have one or the other. The Sacrifice is completely useless if you think the logic of Star Child is nonsense. 

If you really think Star Child's logic was sound, and you like how the ending sits with the rest of the plot, then we are just miles apart. 

Modifié par FemmeShep, 21 mars 2012 - 08:46 .

[Geneaux486]

You see this is what I mean about people making up their own endings. This is what you're doing. Right now.
Nothing indicates this. Nothing. I am speaking of what we see and what we're told in game while you're engaging in wild speculation that "oh well they must have had the clairvoyance to prepare!".

You're doing all the things you're accusing me of doing. We see these races bring their own resources to the Sol system for the final battle. To assume that they didn't is to ignore what's presented in front of our faces.

[Edje Edgar]

GodChildInTheMachine wrote...

I've only run into a couple of people who were willing to address my personal grievances with rational arguments. Some people do a fair job of trying to defend the Space Racist Demiurge's logic and the general premise of the ending, and I definitely give them props for making such an earnest effort.

There's a huge disconnect between the two sides though, and it shows in almost any debate of the topic. People just aren't willing to discuss it on each other's terms.

The people who dislike the ending want to talk about how it is illogical, narratively flawed and done with gameplay mechanics that we were elicitly promised not to get.

The people who like it usually want to talk about how it is fitting with a theme of sacrifice or has philosophical implications. Very rarely will you see someone try to defend it in terms of logic and narration. Then there are a few who actually like that it is left to their imaginations - lucky them, the ending was written for the benefit of this particular taste.

Unfortunately very little earnest debating goes on where each side will address the other's arguments by the terms which define it, so little goes on past "it's my opinion so you can't tell me I'm wrong".

Actually I think there's a lot of people who hate the endings because of its philosophy, in fact I mainly hate it because of it's 'message'. The message isn't one of hope at all, but of despair. All conflict is bound up in our genetical make up and therefor unavoidable.

[FemmeShep]

Geneaux486 wrote...

You see this is what I mean about people making up their own endings. This is what you're doing. Right now.
Nothing indicates this. Nothing. I am speaking of what we see and what we're told in game while you're engaging in wild speculation that "oh well they must have had the clairvoyance to prepare!".

You're doing all the things you're accusing me of doing. We see these races bring their own resources to the Sol system for the final battle. To assume that they didn't is to ignore what's presented in front of our faces.

You're still ignoring the logistics of travel. It's already been said based on canon information how far they can go. So it's not practical.

And at least others are going off reasonable assumption of what has happened or been shown. Vs what you are doing, which is just making **** up. 

Modifié par FemmeShep, 21 mars 2012 - 08:49 .

[The Angry One]

Geneaux486 wrote...

You see this is what I mean about people making up their own endings. This is what you're doing. Right now.
Nothing indicates this. Nothing. I am speaking of what we see and what we're told in game while you're engaging in wild speculation that "oh well they must have had the clairvoyance to prepare!".

You're doing all the things you're accusing me of doing. We see these races bring their own resources to the Sol system for the final battle. To assume that they didn't is to ignore what's presented in front of our faces.

We see them bring their ships and troops.
Where the hell are you getting that they somehow had the clairvoyance to bring decades worth of fuel and supplies with them?

[Edje Edgar]

Geneaux486 wrote...

You see this is what I mean about people making up their own endings. This is what you're doing. Right now.
Nothing indicates this. Nothing. I am speaking of what we see and what we're told in game while you're engaging in wild speculation that "oh well they must have had the clairvoyance to prepare!".

You're doing all the things you're accusing me of doing. We see these races bring their own resources to the Sol system for the final battle. To assume that they didn't is to ignore what's presented in front of our faces.

Actually, we see them warp in battleships. Apart from the quarians nobody ever even mentioned supply ships. And no it isn't standard procedure to launch an attack overburdened with supplies....

[FemmeShep]

Edje Edgar wrote...

GodChildInTheMachine wrote...

I've only run into a couple of people who were willing to address my personal grievances with rational arguments. Some people do a fair job of trying to defend the Space Racist Demiurge's logic and the general premise of the ending, and I definitely give them props for making such an earnest effort.

There's a huge disconnect between the two sides though, and it shows in almost any debate of the topic. People just aren't willing to discuss it on each other's terms.

The people who dislike the ending want to talk about how it is illogical, narratively flawed and done with gameplay mechanics that we were elicitly promised not to get.

The people who like it usually want to talk about how it is fitting with a theme of sacrifice or has philosophical implications. Very rarely will you see someone try to defend it in terms of logic and narration. Then there are a few who actually like that it is left to their imaginations - lucky them, the ending was written for the benefit of this particular taste.

Unfortunately very little earnest debating goes on where each side will address the other's arguments by the terms which define it, so little goes on past "it's my opinion so you can't tell me I'm wrong".

Actually I think there's a lot of people who hate the endings because of its philosophy, in fact I mainly hate it because of it's 'message'. The message isn't one of hope at all, but of despair. All conflict is bound up in our genetical make up and therefor unavoidable.

I hate the ending for all the reasons above. I hated the message, philosophy. I hated the symbolism, the themes. And from a writing perspective, it was just awful and poorly written. The whole thing was one giant mess. 

Modifié par FemmeShep, 21 mars 2012 - 08:49 .

[Geneaux486]

The Angry One wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote...

You see this is what I mean about people making up their own endings. This is what you're doing. Right now.
Nothing indicates this. Nothing. I am speaking of what we see and what we're told in game while you're engaging in wild speculation that "oh well they must have had the clairvoyance to prepare!".

You're doing all the things you're accusing me of doing. We see these races bring their own resources to the Sol system for the final battle. To assume that they didn't is to ignore what's presented in front of our faces.

We see them bring their ships and troops.
Where the hell are you getting that they somehow had the clairvoyance to bring decades worth of fuel and supplies with them?

They bring emergency supplies, rations, and get fuel from nearby planets, the same way you do on the Galaxy Map.  Did you think the Mass relays magically generated fuel for those depots?  The only way your logic works is if the races of the galaxy just say "Whelp, we're done" and sit around and die.

[111987]

FemmeShep wrote...

111987 wrote...

FemmeShep wrote...


For that matter, are you actually defending the dumb logic that Star Child presents as the reason for the Reapers? Are you REALLY okay with how that entire ending sets itself up in context to the rest of the plot. I get you like the stuff that comes after that (symbolically or whatever)....

That's a topic for another thread. Or PM discussion.

Well I mean, I feel like you can't have one or the other. The Sacrifice is completely useless if you think the logic of Star Child is nonsense. 

If you really think Star Child's logic was sound, and you like how the ending sits with the rest of the plot, then we are just miles apart. 

I never even said I liked the endings. I'm just arguing that you can get more out of them than some people are suggesting.

The Star Child's logic is framed in a way that is non-falsifiable, so by definition you cannot disprove it.

[Nykara]

FemaleMageFan wrote...

If the indoctrination theory is real.....then this is the greatest ending i have ever come across no sarcasm

This

[The Angry One]

Edje Edgar wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote...

You see this is what I mean about people making up their own endings. This is what you're doing. Right now.
Nothing indicates this. Nothing. I am speaking of what we see and what we're told in game while you're engaging in wild speculation that "oh well they must have had the clairvoyance to prepare!".

You're doing all the things you're accusing me of doing. We see these races bring their own resources to the Sol system for the final battle. To assume that they didn't is to ignore what's presented in front of our faces.

Actually, we see them warp in battleships. Apart from the quarians nobody ever even mentioned supply ships. And no it isn't standard procedure to launch an attack overburdened with supplies....

At least one agriculture ship is mentioned to be part of Hackett's fleet but I'd think it unwise to bring them to a war, more likely those were left at the Crucible construction site.

[Swords and Lasers]

Loved the ending...




... and here comes the condescending questioning of my OPINION.

[Cyph3rX]

Geneaux486 wrote...

Cyph3rX wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote...

Please see any number of topics on this. Their FTL drives will not help, they require fuel, constant static discharges and maintenance. Their rations will run out, and then they'll be left with what? Nothing. Especially the Turians, who will have to raid Quarian lifeships to survive.

FTL will help, fuel will not be in short supply, rations will not run out as long as someone, anyone, knows anything about agriculture.

FTL is 12 light years a day, that will get you around the local cluster and the local cluster only.
Fuel not in short supply? Excuse me? They have thousands of ships to fuel and no infrastructure to refuel. ZERO. NONE. The Reapers destroyed it all.
Knowing about agriculture and having somewhere viable to grow crops are two different things, a few agriculture ships aren't going to feed the millions of crewmembers, refugees and soldiers left. Remember, liveships can only feed Quarians and Turians and probably don't have enough for both.

And why do you assume the rest of the races didn't plan for something like this?  They went to the Sol system knowing the risks, any decent military force would take precautions of this nature.  To find fault with the state of the galaxy at the end of this war you basically have to say the Reapers shouldn't exist.

You either just watched the endings on youtube without even playing the game, or your brain was turned off until the elevator started going up, or you're just trolling. No one was prepared for this, that was the whole point of the game.

No one was prepared for what?  The final battle?  Of course they were, that was the whole point of the game.  And you accuse me of not paying attention? 

Pretty much, Garrus commented on the poor readiness of the Turians, Wrex was complaining about Reaper scouts and incursions into his system, The Geth pretty much ripped the majority of the Quarians a new one, the Asari got roflstomped by invading Reapers on Thessia, Hackett had to sacrifice whole fleets to cover his retreats and was down to fighting a losing guerilla war with few resources.

Btw, they were only going to Earth mainly because they were all going to eventually be overrun anyway and the Crucible was their last great hope, and pretty much their whole plan which was reiterated several times ad nauseum by Hackett.

I really doubt they had an exit plan if this one failed, epecially since they kept complaining about lack of resources throughout the game.