350 réponses à ce sujet

[Tony208]

The Angry One wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote...

You see this is what I mean about people making up their own endings. This is what you're doing. Right now.
Nothing indicates this. Nothing. I am speaking of what we see and what we're told in game while you're engaging in wild speculation that "oh well they must have had the clairvoyance to prepare!".

You're doing all the things you're accusing me of doing. We see these races bring their own resources to the Sol system for the final battle. To assume that they didn't is to ignore what's presented in front of our faces.

We see them bring their ships and troops.
Where the hell are you getting that they somehow had the clairvoyance to bring decades worth of fuel and supplies with them?

Exactly, who the hell brings all their resources in to a battle to get destroyed? The ships have a few months supply at most. The Quarian ships probably have a bit more.

We're using common sense and this guy is speculating.

[The Angry One]

Geneaux486 wrote...

They bring emergency supplies, rations, and get fuel from nearby planets, the same way you do on the Galaxy Map.  Did you think the Mass relays magically generated fuel for those depots?  The only way your logic works is if the races of the galaxy just say "Whelp, we're done" and sit around and die.

Yeah I forgot there's lots of food to be had on Mars, Venus and Mercury.
Where are you going to get fuel? The depots and infrastructure in Sol have been destroyed?
You can search the local cluster, but that's going to cost you fuel, and if the infrasctructure in the other systems has been destroyed too (and Reapers LOVE to destroy infrastructure) then you're S.O.L. aren't you?

[FemmeShep]

111987 wrote...

FemmeShep wrote...

111987 wrote...

FemmeShep wrote...


For that matter, are you actually defending the dumb logic that Star Child presents as the reason for the Reapers? Are you REALLY okay with how that entire ending sets itself up in context to the rest of the plot. I get you like the stuff that comes after that (symbolically or whatever)....

That's a topic for another thread. Or PM discussion.

Well I mean, I feel like you can't have one or the other. The Sacrifice is completely useless if you think the logic of Star Child is nonsense. 

If you really think Star Child's logic was sound, and you like how the ending sits with the rest of the plot, then we are just miles apart. 

I never even said I liked the endings. I'm just arguing that you can get more out of them than some people are suggesting.

The Star Child's logic is framed in a way that is non-falsifiable, so by definition you cannot disprove it.

Like I said, for me I just don't see how you can get a message of hope or find any of those meanings you are talking about.

The entire setup and premise is just so flawed, that it really just ****s all over Shepard in the end. For me it's simple causality. Shepard does x in reaction to y. But y is completely idiotic therfore it invalidates x.

And the options he's forced into are not even choices he should be forced to make, because Y is idiotic in the first place. Either way, I want to apologize for being so harsh earlier in the thread. Got carried away. And I promise I'll tone it down from here on out. 

Modifié par FemmeShep, 21 mars 2012 - 08:53 .

[HenchxNarf]

Swords and Lasers wrote...

Loved the ending...




... and here comes the condescending questioning of my OPINION.

YOU'RE A TROLL YO!

You work for Bioware, do they pay you a lot!?!?

You're stupid for having your own opinion!

Have I covered them all, yet?

On a more serious note, YAY! The ending was great, and I'm glad you enjoyed it.

[Edje Edgar]

111987 wrote...

The Star Child's logic is framed in a way that is non-falsifiable, so by definition you cannot disprove it.

Apart from the fact where the geth and quarians are helping each other in my game? Or do you mean that his premise might still be true in the future? Because everything could be true in the future so then everything is non-falisifiable...

[Cody211282]

111987 wrote...

FemmeShep wrote...

111987 wrote...

FemmeShep wrote...


For that matter, are you actually defending the dumb logic that Star Child presents as the reason for the Reapers? Are you REALLY okay with how that entire ending sets itself up in context to the rest of the plot. I get you like the stuff that comes after that (symbolically or whatever)....

That's a topic for another thread. Or PM discussion.

Well I mean, I feel like you can't have one or the other. The Sacrifice is completely useless if you think the logic of Star Child is nonsense. 

If you really think Star Child's logic was sound, and you like how the ending sits with the rest of the plot, then we are just miles apart. 

I never even said I liked the endings. I'm just arguing that you can get more out of them than some people are suggesting.

The Star Child's logic is framed in a way that is non-falsifiable, so by definition you cannot disprove it.

It's circular logic and easily disproven if he were to look out the window and see geth and quarien fighting on the same side.

[Geneaux486]

Cyph3rX wrote...
Pretty much, Garrus commented on the poor readiness of the Turians, Wrex was complaining about Reaper scouts and incursions into his system, The Geth pretty much ripped the majority of the Quarians a new one, the Asari got roflstomped by invading Reapers on Thessia, Hackett had to sacrifice whole fleets to cover his retreats and was down to fighting a losing guerilla war with few resources.

Btw, they were only going to Earth mainly because they were all going to eventually be overrun anyway and the Crucible was their last great hope, and pretty much their whole plan which was reiterated several times ad nauseum by Hackett.

I really doubt they had an exit plan if this one failed, epecially since they kept complaining about lack of resources throughout the game.

This is dependent on your effective military strength, resources mulitplied by galactic readiness rating.  If it's super high, then logically we can assume that these guys covered their bases.  They're not coming out perfect, but they're also not coming out doomed.

[Edje Edgar]

HenchxNarf wrote...

Swords and Lasers wrote...

Loved the ending...




... and here comes the condescending questioning of my OPINION.

YOU'RE A TROLL YO!

You work for Bioware, do they pay you a lot!?!?

You're stupid for having your own opinion!

Have I covered them all, yet?

On a more serious note, YAY! The ending was great, and I'm glad you enjoyed it.

I hated the ending



... and here comes the condescending comment I just didn't understand it.

[HenchxNarf]

Edje Edgar wrote...

HenchxNarf wrote...

Swords and Lasers wrote...

Loved the ending...




... and here comes the condescending questioning of my OPINION.

YOU'RE A TROLL YO!

You work for Bioware, do they pay you a lot!?!?

You're stupid for having your own opinion!

Have I covered them all, yet?

On a more serious note, YAY! The ending was great, and I'm glad you enjoyed it.

I hated the ending



... and here comes the condescending comment I just didn't understand it.

That's your opinion and you're entitled to it.

[Cyph3rX]

HenchxNarf wrote...

Swords and Lasers wrote...

Loved the ending...




... and here comes the condescending questioning of my OPINION.

YOU'RE A TROLL YO!

You work for Bioware, do they pay you a lot!?!?

You're stupid for having your own opinion!

Have I covered them all, yet?

On a more serious note, YAY! The ending was great, and I'm glad you enjoyed it.

Fine with his post, your post is just filled with sweet juicy irony.

[Geneaux486]

HenchxNarf wrote...

Edje Edgar wrote...

HenchxNarf wrote...

Swords and Lasers wrote...

Loved the ending...




... and here comes the condescending questioning of my OPINION.

YOU'RE A TROLL YO!

You work for Bioware, do they pay you a lot!?!?

You're stupid for having your own opinion!

Have I covered them all, yet?

On a more serious note, YAY! The ending was great, and I'm glad you enjoyed it.

I hated the ending



... and here comes the condescending comment I just didn't understand it.

That's your opinion and you're entitled to it.

That there is the tone of the argument in a nutshell.

[Edje Edgar]

Geneaux486 wrote...

Cyph3rX wrote...
Pretty much, Garrus commented on the poor readiness of the Turians, Wrex was complaining about Reaper scouts and incursions into his system, The Geth pretty much ripped the majority of the Quarians a new one, the Asari got roflstomped by invading Reapers on Thessia, Hackett had to sacrifice whole fleets to cover his retreats and was down to fighting a losing guerilla war with few resources.

Btw, they were only going to Earth mainly because they were all going to eventually be overrun anyway and the Crucible was their last great hope, and pretty much their whole plan which was reiterated several times ad nauseum by Hackett.

I really doubt they had an exit plan if this one failed, epecially since they kept complaining about lack of resources throughout the game.

This is dependent on your effective military strength, resources mulitplied by galactic readiness rating.  If it's super high, then logically we can assume that these guys covered their bases.  They're not coming out perfect, but they're also not coming out doomed.

We are logically assuming they flew in supply ships during a battle? I don't think we have the same idea with logically assuming anything.

[FemmeShep]

Swords and Lasers wrote...

Loved the ending...




... and here comes the condescending questioning of my OPINION.

For me, only if you are trying to debate it. 

I agree if you make a thread where you just want to talk about your love for the ending, and nothing else. People that hated it shouldn't be talking to you about why it's awful, because you aren't up for debating your opinion.

But if you go into a thread or make it something worth debating, then you are damn right people are going to express why they think you are wrong. And it's your job to try defend your opinion (again, that's only if you are up for debate).

Of course, sadly people do call others trolls for making threads just about that. That's something I don't agree with. Even if I strongly believe those that like the ending are wrong, and like it for all the wrong reasons. 

Modifié par FemmeShep, 21 mars 2012 - 08:56 .

[Geneaux486]

Edje Edgar wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote...

Cyph3rX wrote...
Pretty much, Garrus commented on the poor readiness of the Turians, Wrex was complaining about Reaper scouts and incursions into his system, The Geth pretty much ripped the majority of the Quarians a new one, the Asari got roflstomped by invading Reapers on Thessia, Hackett had to sacrifice whole fleets to cover his retreats and was down to fighting a losing guerilla war with few resources.

Btw, they were only going to Earth mainly because they were all going to eventually be overrun anyway and the Crucible was their last great hope, and pretty much their whole plan which was reiterated several times ad nauseum by Hackett.

I really doubt they had an exit plan if this one failed, epecially since they kept complaining about lack of resources throughout the game.

This is dependent on your effective military strength, resources mulitplied by galactic readiness rating.  If it's super high, then logically we can assume that these guys covered their bases.  They're not coming out perfect, but they're also not coming out doomed.

We are logically assuming they flew in supply ships during a battle? I don't think we have the same idea with logically assuming anything.

They can keep them nearby without putting them on the front lines XD

[Cody211282]

The Angry One wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote...

They bring emergency supplies, rations, and get fuel from nearby planets, the same way you do on the Galaxy Map.  Did you think the Mass relays magically generated fuel for those depots?  The only way your logic works is if the races of the galaxy just say "Whelp, we're done" and sit around and die.

Yeah I forgot there's lots of food to be had on Mars, Venus and Mercury.
Where are you going to get fuel? The depots and infrastructure in Sol have been destroyed?
You can search the local cluster, but that's going to cost you fuel, and if the infrasctructure in the other systems has been destroyed too (and Reapers LOVE to destroy infrastructure) then you're S.O.L. aren't you?

Reaper tactics 101 is that they love to blow the hell out of fuel stations and anything else that they dont need.

Plus the amount of fuel needed for a fleet as big as the one you brought to save earth just doesn't exsist in the sol system, and if it ever had you can bet the reapers had a hayday bowing it to chunks.

[The Angry One]

You want to like the ending? Go ahead and like it.
But don't even pretend you're not on a crusade with your "retake BSN!" sig and all your malarky.
You want to make us go away, but we're not going anywhere, and if you want to debate the merits of the ending then prepare to be refuted and have the fact that you deliberately misinterpret the ending to suit yourself exposed, and this happens EVERY TIME I debate one of you.

Modifié par The Angry One, 21 mars 2012 - 08:58 .

[Tony208]

Geneaux486 wrote...

Cyph3rX wrote...
Pretty much, Garrus commented on the poor readiness of the Turians, Wrex was complaining about Reaper scouts and incursions into his system, The Geth pretty much ripped the majority of the Quarians a new one, the Asari got roflstomped by invading Reapers on Thessia, Hackett had to sacrifice whole fleets to cover his retreats and was down to fighting a losing guerilla war with few resources.

Btw, they were only going to Earth mainly because they were all going to eventually be overrun anyway and the Crucible was their last great hope, and pretty much their whole plan which was reiterated several times ad nauseum by Hackett.

I really doubt they had an exit plan if this one failed, epecially since they kept complaining about lack of resources throughout the game.

This is dependent on your effective military strength, resources mulitplied by galactic readiness rating.  If it's super high, then logically we can assume that these guys covered their bases.  They're not coming out perfect, but they're also not coming out doomed.

Logically assume?
You mean speculation

[111987]

Edje Edgar wrote...

111987 wrote...

The Star Child's logic is framed in a way that is non-falsifiable, so by definition you cannot disprove it.

Apart from the fact where the geth and quarians are helping each other in my game? Or do you mean that his premise might still be true in the future? Because everything could be true in the future so then everything is non-falisifiable...

Exactly. I would assume he has some evidence supporting his claims (like observation, tests, etc...), but ultimately you can never disprove him. Plus, being billions of years old, he has a lot more experience/evidence than us to support his stance than we do to support ours, even if we are right.

[Geneaux486]

Cody211282 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote...

They bring emergency supplies, rations, and get fuel from nearby planets, the same way you do on the Galaxy Map.  Did you think the Mass relays magically generated fuel for those depots?  The only way your logic works is if the races of the galaxy just say "Whelp, we're done" and sit around and die.

Yeah I forgot there's lots of food to be had on Mars, Venus and Mercury.
Where are you going to get fuel? The depots and infrastructure in Sol have been destroyed?
You can search the local cluster, but that's going to cost you fuel, and if the infrasctructure in the other systems has been destroyed too (and Reapers LOVE to destroy infrastructure) then you're S.O.L. aren't you?

Reaper tactics 101 is that they love to blow the hell out of fuel stations and anything else that they dont need.

Plus the amount of fuel needed for a fleet as big as the one you brought to save earth just doesn't exsist in the sol system, and if it ever had you can bet the reapers had a hayday bowing it to chunks.

Right because as we all know there's a fine line between having just enough resources to work out a semi-long term survival plan and having everything you need to get galactic civilization back up and running instantly.

[The Angry One]

111987 wrote...

Edje Edgar wrote...

111987 wrote...

The Star Child's logic is framed in a way that is non-falsifiable, so by definition you cannot disprove it.

Apart from the fact where the geth and quarians are helping each other in my game? Or do you mean that his premise might still be true in the future? Because everything could be true in the future so then everything is non-falisifiable...

Exactly. I would assume he has some evidence supporting his claims (like observation, tests, etc...), but ultimately you can never disprove him. Plus, being billions of years old, he has a lot more experience/evidence than us to support his stance than we do to support ours, even if we are right.

That is idiotic reasoning. Using his moronic logic you can claim anything will inevitably happen given enough time.
He is easily refutable, he is a liar and he is a moron. I refuse to believe Shepard would ever kowtow to an AI with less logical deduction capabilities than a pocket calculator.

[111987]

FemmeShep wrote...

Like I said, for me I just don't see how you can get a message of hope or find any of those meanings you are talking about.

The entire setup and premise is just so flawed, that it really just ****s all over Shepard in the end. For me it's simple causality. Shepard does x in reaction to y. But y is completely idiotic therfore it invalidates x.

And the options he's forced into are not even choices he should be forced to make, because Y is idiotic in the first place. Either way, I want to apologize for being so harsh earlier in the thread. Got carried away. And I promise I'll tone it down from here on out. 

No problem. I think everyone gets a little heated when they're passionate about something, and there is disagreement. I just try to keep things in perspective (i.e. it's just a video game).

[Edje Edgar]

Geneaux486 wrote...

Edje Edgar wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote...

Cyph3rX wrote...
Pretty much, Garrus commented on the poor readiness of the Turians, Wrex was complaining about Reaper scouts and incursions into his system, The Geth pretty much ripped the majority of the Quarians a new one, the Asari got roflstomped by invading Reapers on Thessia, Hackett had to sacrifice whole fleets to cover his retreats and was down to fighting a losing guerilla war with few resources.

Btw, they were only going to Earth mainly because they were all going to eventually be overrun anyway and the Crucible was their last great hope, and pretty much their whole plan which was reiterated several times ad nauseum by Hackett.

I really doubt they had an exit plan if this one failed, epecially since they kept complaining about lack of resources throughout the game.

This is dependent on your effective military strength, resources mulitplied by galactic readiness rating.  If it's super high, then logically we can assume that these guys covered their bases.  They're not coming out perfect, but they're also not coming out doomed.

We are logically assuming they flew in supply ships during a battle? I don't think we have the same idea with logically assuming anything.

They can keep them nearby without putting them on the front lines XD

If I were to plan an attack of this scale I would have my supplies ready near the nearest unthreatened relay. Ready to warp in when the attack has been succesfull. You wouldn't want your supply ships anywhere near that battle, what if you are forced to retreat? You run the risk of your supply ships being either cut off or in the way.

[AtreiyaN7]

FemmeShep wrote...

Edje Edgar wrote...

GodChildInTheMachine wrote...

I've only run into a couple of people who were willing to address my personal grievances with rational arguments. Some people do a fair job of trying to defend the Space Racist Demiurge's logic and the general premise of the ending, and I definitely give them props for making such an earnest effort.

There's a huge disconnect between the two sides though, and it shows in almost any debate of the topic. People just aren't willing to discuss it on each other's terms.

The people who dislike the ending want to talk about how it is illogical, narratively flawed and done with gameplay mechanics that we were elicitly promised not to get.

The people who like it usually want to talk about how it is fitting with a theme of sacrifice or has philosophical implications. Very rarely will you see someone try to defend it in terms of logic and narration. Then there are a few who actually like that it is left to their imaginations - lucky them, the ending was written for the benefit of this particular taste.

Unfortunately very little earnest debating goes on where each side will address the other's arguments by the terms which define it, so little goes on past "it's my opinion so you can't tell me I'm wrong".

Actually I think there's a lot of people who hate the endings because of its philosophy, in fact I mainly hate it because of it's 'message'. The message isn't one of hope at all, but of despair. All conflict is bound up in our genetical make up and therefor unavoidable.

I hate the ending for all the reasons above. I hated the message, philosophy. I hated the symbolism, the themes. And from a writing perspective, it was just awful and poorly written. 

There are those of us who can see hope in the ME3 endings, or at least the Synthesis ending in my case. C'est la vie - I don't particularly are if you believe they represent doom and despair and. You want to experience real despair/bleakness? Try reading I Have No Mouth, and I Must Scream, and then get back to me after you do. Great story by Harlan Ellison, yet it has one of the darkest endings I've ever read. ME3's ending is positively giddy in comparison to it - especially since people clearly survive in the post-ME3 future.

[The Angry One]

Geneaux486 wrote...

Cody211282 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote...

They bring emergency supplies, rations, and get fuel from nearby planets, the same way you do on the Galaxy Map.  Did you think the Mass relays magically generated fuel for those depots?  The only way your logic works is if the races of the galaxy just say "Whelp, we're done" and sit around and die.

Yeah I forgot there's lots of food to be had on Mars, Venus and Mercury.
Where are you going to get fuel? The depots and infrastructure in Sol have been destroyed?
You can search the local cluster, but that's going to cost you fuel, and if the infrasctructure in the other systems has been destroyed too (and Reapers LOVE to destroy infrastructure) then you're S.O.L. aren't you?

Reaper tactics 101 is that they love to blow the hell out of fuel stations and anything else that they dont need.

Plus the amount of fuel needed for a fleet as big as the one you brought to save earth just doesn't exsist in the sol system, and if it ever had you can bet the reapers had a hayday bowing it to chunks.

Right because as we all know there's a fine line between having just enough resources to work out a semi-long term survival plan and having everything you need to get galactic civilization back up and running instantly.

They have NOTHING. Do you understand this? NOTHING. No long term supplies, no way to get more supplies, no fuel, little ability to grow food and Earth completely uninhabitable in 2/3 endings.

[Cyph3rX]

Edje Edgar wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote...

Cyph3rX wrote...
Pretty much, Garrus commented on the poor readiness of the Turians, Wrex was complaining about Reaper scouts and incursions into his system, The Geth pretty much ripped the majority of the Quarians a new one, the Asari got roflstomped by invading Reapers on Thessia, Hackett had to sacrifice whole fleets to cover his retreats and was down to fighting a losing guerilla war with few resources.

Btw, they were only going to Earth mainly because they were all going to eventually be overrun anyway and the Crucible was their last great hope, and pretty much their whole plan which was reiterated several times ad nauseum by Hackett.

I really doubt they had an exit plan if this one failed, epecially since they kept complaining about lack of resources throughout the game.

This is dependent on your effective military strength, resources mulitplied by galactic readiness rating.  If it's super high, then logically we can assume that these guys covered their bases.  They're not coming out perfect, but they're also not coming out doomed.

We are logically assuming they flew in supply ships during a battle? I don't think we have the same idea with logically assuming anything.

Mine was fairly high by the end of the game and I still received most of those convos. It comes down to if I wanted to think about and analyze the "endings", I would have gone and played DE:HR again instead and saved myself $60.