388 réponses à ce sujet

[MadRabbit999]

Turbotanden wrote...

S1at3 wrote...

CavScout wrote...

MadRabbit999 wrote...

sedrikhcain wrote...

Just so I'm clear on this, those of you who support the indoctrination theory believe, essentially, that the Reapers won this "war" before ME3 ever even really started and everything that happens along the way of any significance never really occurred at all and existed only inside Shepard's head? Or does the hallucination begin only at the end, as a way to excuse it all away and just declare that Shepard died at the beam and, ultimately, the only thing he/she could save us all from was the horror of witnessing the final defeat of organics at the hands of the Reapers?

No.. the indoctrination theory does not state that Shepard got indoctrinated... but that he is fighting indoctrination.

Choosing Blue= You GOT indoctrinated, so fail


Choosing Green= You GOT indoctrinated, so fail


Choosing Red= You broke free from indoctrination, you won.

This is where the whole indoctrination theory fails spectacularly. If you fail to to build enough EMS before the final battle, the ONLY option you have is destroy. Why would the Reapers ONLY give you one option and the option would be to destroy them and beat indoctrination? Why does being less prepared mean 100% chance and breaking free from indoctrination? You win more easily by failing to prepare?

Your point isn't valid because it goes against the indoctrination theory.  Or at least that's what it will boil down to.

It is quite obvious that with low enough EMS there is no need for an indoctrinated Shepard. And that is why the boy says "Why are you here?" instead of "Wake up" and why you don't wake up in the end. You died, sorry.

Really?

Didn't know that bit... seems quite imprtant too to be honest... nobody picked on this one much either?

[milkymcmilkerson]

Aiyie wrote...

RLesueur wrote...

Yup, pretty soon we'll have re-take Omega DLC.

And then we'll all be sorry we doubted Indoctrination Theory.

just a quick thought here.

i can't speak for others, but im pretty sure indoc was never intentional.  that said, its very possible bioware will adopt it and use it as a convenient plot device that already exists in order to give us a new ending, without having to get rid of what they already spent the time and money making.

if im right, and indoc was never intentional, i wouldn't be the least bit surprised if omega dlc did get released first.

they obviously had a post-relase marketing plan, which probably included omega dlc.  that dlc was probably being worked on long before release day.  in a nuthshell, they're already working on omega, and didn't anticipate the vitriol about the ending.  they'll finish with omega, then devote the resources that were dedicated to omega to a new ending.

if they're smart, since they're going to probably ask us to pay for ending dlc, since its not free to make, they'll bundle it with the omega dlc, release it a little later than originally intended, and and have it included with the ending dlc package.

But if the current endings are indeed final then why or how would there be a re-take Omega dlc? All the Reapers in the galaxy are either controlled, dead or synthasized and there are no mass relays anymore in order to travel to Omega, unless you mean that a supposed Omega dlc was in the works as an additional quest during the main game, and not after. 

[Ultra Prism]

I don't know what to think ... geez

[Myskal1981]

milkymcmilkerson wrote...

But if the current endings are indeed final then why or how would there be a re-take Omega dlc? All the Reapers in the galaxy are either controlled, dead or synthasized and there are no mass relays anymore in order to travel to Omega, unless you mean that a supposed Omega dlc was in the works as an additional quest during the main game, and not after. 

Would you be surprised if Omega DLC was meant to be played before the attack on Cerberus HQ?
I mean, Kasumi DLC in ME2 is also meant to be played before the suicide mission.

[Sybafairy]

How did the kid in the beginning get from that ventilation shaft to the shuttle in the first place? I had to pound through those waves of cannibals etc.. cant see one sole kid thinking 'ok cool i am going back in the vent shaft.. i hav eno idea where to go, no idea if anyone is coming... but hey look at me, i made it to the shuttles alone' .. doesnt smell right

[Aiyie]

milkymcmilkerson wrote...

Aiyie wrote...

RLesueur wrote...

Yup, pretty soon we'll have re-take Omega DLC.

And then we'll all be sorry we doubted Indoctrination Theory.

just a quick thought here.

i can't speak for others, but im pretty sure indoc was never intentional.  that said, its very possible bioware will adopt it and use it as a convenient plot device that already exists in order to give us a new ending, without having to get rid of what they already spent the time and money making.

if im right, and indoc was never intentional, i wouldn't be the least bit surprised if omega dlc did get released first.

they obviously had a post-relase marketing plan, which probably included omega dlc.  that dlc was probably being worked on long before release day.  in a nuthshell, they're already working on omega, and didn't anticipate the vitriol about the ending.  they'll finish with omega, then devote the resources that were dedicated to omega to a new ending.

if they're smart, since they're going to probably ask us to pay for ending dlc, since its not free to make, they'll bundle it with the omega dlc, release it a little later than originally intended, and and have it included with the ending dlc package.

But if the current endings are indeed final then why or how would there be a re-take Omega dlc? All the Reapers in the galaxy are either controlled, dead or synthasized and there are no mass relays anymore in order to travel to Omega, unless you mean that a supposed Omega dlc was in the works as an additional quest during the main game, and not after. 

my thought is that the ending was originally intended to be just that... the ending.

as much as i love the idea of bioware pulling some giant meta-game twist on us with indoc theory, the real world makes it very ambiguous at best.  Drew Karpyshyn's departure from bioware appears to me to be the biggest reaon to believe indoc is not intended.

still works if its used to retcon a new ending that's added on after the fact.

i think original plans had any dlc occur prior to the ending... perhaps as an explanation for the plot holes, perhaps not.

[NekOoNinja]

My take on the low-EMS destroy option considering the IT:

It is most likely that Shepard's reputation bar isn't maxed out by that point (he's too weak to resist) and takes what the child says for granted. Shepard believes that (s)he dies, or simply gives up.

If it is maxed out, and you have low EMS, then I'd say it is because Shepard doesn't have enough time to get out of it before the fleets are destroyed / Shep's unconcious body gets eaten by a cannibal because there were not enough ground forces to push the enemies back.

Now, with control and synthesis, these are there to bait shepard into the wrong decision, since (s)he is most likely to see through the lies that spacekid feeds. Also trying to appeal to morals; some characters ingame repeatedly say that it needs a cold hearted... Garrus put it so nicely... Calculon to get through this.

With high EMS, the reapers are actually getting desperate. They know they could actually screw this cycle up, so they go for last ditch effort tactics. That's why there are actually MORE options with higher EMS:
Control and Synthesis appeal to sympathy, trying to preserve life, the "fake paragon option".
Destroy stands for what Shepard has been trying all along, but the reapers try to make this look as undesireable as possible. It comes across as selfish and cold hearted to destroy synthetics (You Monster!). I can almost see GlaDos speaking here.

I like how Angry Joe points out that shepard stops limping if chosen the destroy option. It was a sweet moment, I yelled "THIS IS FOR GARRUS YOU BASTARDS!!" at my TV screen when she suddenly was full of confidence and shot the red conduit; I had defied indoctrination alongside shepard, by remembering what we were fighting for.

Then the cutscenes showed up and everything became even more messed up. - effectively nullifying the admittedly delicious 10 seconds of glory.


Yeah. I wish I could believe that. Makes me worried that, if it's true, we were played, and the ending DLC is just there to get more money from the fans (in a bad way).
The best case scenario could have been to see the fan reactions and gather data on how the fans want it to end. I'd rename my cats Bio and Ware if they'd pull that off.

<_<

Modifié par NekOoNinja, 21 mars 2012 - 03:01 .

[czombie]

Indoctrination may be semi-intentional in that it was designed as a failsafe if too many people were unsatisfied with the current ending, or as DLC which provides an alternate ending to fans just for entertainment's sake. I do not believe, however, that this kind of negative press is good for Bioware and EA whatsoever. Stoking this kind of discontent is never good for the stability of a profit line for a major company like EA, even if it is eventually resolved with some kind of "additional twist" by the developers.

The only thing that makes me pause and think that IT is definitely what happened in the game is just how contradictory the game's ending is with the Geth/Quarian events on Rannoch, as well as the development of EDI. Unless the developers are either philosophically weak or inconsistent writers, I am not sure how these differing events can be reconciled in the plot line. Can synthetics and organics coexist or can't they? Am I the only one who thought there might be a "secret choice" and that one could walk away and not make a decision at all? I actually tried that!

As nobody from Bioware has explained the rationale behind the ending of the game, I am going to have to say that Bioware intended IT as a possibility, but probably not a definitely planned continuation, in DLC. However, I think that the ploy backfired on them considering the huge backlash. And the fact that we are all sitting here arguing about it on a message board means that when it does appear, it will no longer shock and awe us as Bioware and EA may have originally intended, which may also impact sales.

[MadRabbit999]

One more question:

In the ending Shepard wakes up in a pile of Concrete and reinforced concrete (The one with metal spirals of wire running through the concrete), which is something we use to make buildings on earth... while the citadel seems mostly made by metallic alloys and ceramic plating... anybody picked that one up?

[dorktainian]

The Indoctrination theory in the Video fits. The explaination of Shooting Anderson - then Shep having the wound... Absolute class. Well spotted sir/madam.

[dorktainian]

MadRabbit999 wrote...

One more question:

In the ending Shepard wakes up in a pile of Concrete and reinforced concrete (The one with metal spirals of wire running through the concrete), which is something we use to make buildings on earth... while the citadel seems mostly made by metallic alloys and ceramic plating... anybody picked that one up?

because he wakes up where he fell in London before magic fairy Harbie dust took him on a mindbending trip to citadel heaven.

[garf]

I don't 'buy' indoc theory. but...

It's fun to play with. Anyone notice in the end. ... just as anderson dies. Shepherd notices she has a wound in the exact same place that she shot anderson while under TIM's controll?

[MadRabbit999]

garf wrote...

I don't 'buy' indoc theory. but...

It's fun to play with. Anyone notice in the end. ... just as anderson dies. Shepherd notices she has a wound in the exact same place that she shot anderson while under TIM's controll?

They did...  but to me that's the wound caused by the Turian Husk just before you got in the beam.

[garf]

oops guess someone did sorry,

[garf]

MadRabbit999 wrote...

garf wrote...

I don't 'buy' indoc theory. but...

It's fun to play with. Anyone notice in the end. ... just as anderson dies. Shepherd notices she has a wound in the exact same place that she shot anderson while under TIM's controll?

They did...  but to me that's the wound caused by the Turian Husk just before you got in the beam.

 
sure I buy that It's like that with most of the proof people offer open to interpretation, the the conclusion built on interpretations of interpretations... I find it interesting that the ending of a video game drives a massive number of people to engage in active previously only seen with the death of a President and the Alleged death of a Beatle.

[NekOoNinja]

MadRabbit999 wrote...

One more question:

In the ending Shepard wakes up in a pile of Concrete and reinforced concrete (The one with metal spirals of wire running through the concrete), which is something we use to make buildings on earth... while the citadel seems mostly made by metallic alloys and ceramic plating... anybody picked that one up?

And right infront of the beam no less. You can hear it in the clip, and in the background you see a bright blue light.

This also implies that the citadel is still intact - where else would the beam lead to?

Edit: Wait no. I think I messed that one up. Damn laptop screen is so dark. forget what I said

Modifié par NekOoNinja, 21 mars 2012 - 03:15 .

[MadRabbit999]

garf wrote...

oops guess someone did sorry,

If you watch the second video about the indoc... the guy reflects Anderson as Shepard consiousness, so when he get shot, Shepard gets shot...

[MadRabbit999]

NekOoNinja wrote...

MadRabbit999 wrote...

One more question:

In the ending Shepard wakes up in a pile of Concrete and reinforced concrete (The one with metal spirals of wire running through the concrete), which is something we use to make buildings on earth... while the citadel seems mostly made by metallic alloys and ceramic plating... anybody picked that one up?

And right infront of the beam no less. You can hear it in the clip, and in the background you see a bright blue light.

This also implies that the citadel is still intact - where else would the beam lead to?

Gonna answer this with this thread I made:

http://social.biowar...3830/1#10384849

Somebody said the last bit in the clip it's a fake.. adjusted so we can see better.. but to me he shouldn;t have done that.. it feels like he was jsut trying hard to make it true now...

[cdancidhe]

Why is so difficult to see that this is an indoctrination ending. Only the last minutes of the game are odd, everything else is a master piece. They would not get to this point and simply create such a crappy ending with plot holes and inconsistencies (unlimited ammo, inverted numbers, etc). All the clues are there, and as the video points out there are a lot, not just one or two things here or there.

The only problem is Bioware waiting too long to make an statement which is creating a lot of damage.

[jonal11]

I watched that video few days ago and I'm not sure how it proves indoctrination. Only thing it does prove is that the endings suck.

[realguile]

garf wrote...

I don't 'buy' indoc theory. but...

It's fun to play with. Anyone notice in the end. ... just as anderson dies. Shepherd notices she has a wound in the exact same place that she shot anderson while under TIM's controll?

Who shot shepard? She shot herself?

[MadRabbit999]

realguile wrote...

garf wrote...

I don't 'buy' indoc theory. but...

It's fun to play with. Anyone notice in the end. ... just as anderson dies. Shepherd notices she has a wound in the exact same place that she shot anderson while under TIM's controll?

Who shot shepard? She shot herself?

Turian Husk before he/she got on...

[Erethrian]

MadRabbit999 wrote...

realguile wrote...

garf wrote...

I don't 'buy' indoc theory. but...

It's fun to play with. Anyone notice in the end. ... just as anderson dies. Shepherd notices she has a wound in the exact same place that she shot anderson while under TIM's controll?

Who shot shepard? She shot herself?

Turian Husk before he/she got on...

In my screen it seems "Marauder Shields" shot my Shep in the shoulder.

EDIT: I've been watching a couple of videos about, and it seems pretty clear to me, it's the right shoulder.

Modifié par Erethrian, 21 mars 2012 - 03:18 .

[MadRabbit999]

Erethrian wrote...

MadRabbit999 wrote...

realguile wrote...

garf wrote...

I don't 'buy' indoc theory. but...

It's fun to play with. Anyone notice in the end. ... just as anderson dies. Shepherd notices she has a wound in the exact same place that she shot anderson while under TIM's controll?

Who shot shepard? She shot herself?

Turian Husk before he/she got on...

In my screen it seems "Marauder Shields" shot my Shep in the shoulder.

You got shot.. we do not really see where... and the model of Shepard would not change to reflect this because of game engine limitations...

We cannot have 2 walking stances (Holstered and non holstered) because of this reason.. let alone, update the whole model of shepard with the new bullet hole and make him/her walk differently in the same scene.

[Erethrian]

"Building on their research, Exec Producer Casey Hudson and the team are hard at work on a number of game content initiatives that will help answer the questions, providing more clarity for those seeking further closure to their journey. You’ll hear more on this in April. We’re working hard to maintain the right balance between the artistic integrity of the original story while addressing the fan feedback we’ve received. This is in addition to our existing plan to continue providing new Mass Effect content and new full games, so rest assured that your journey in the Mass Effect universe can, and will, continue."

http://blog.bioware....012/03/21/4108/

Modifié par Erethrian, 21 mars 2012 - 03:22 .