388 réponses à ce sujet

[dreman9999]

wtbusername wrote...

Inb4 "You are grasping at straws" "Bioware made a mistake and just screwed up the ending" "I'd rather keep wallowing in misery than consider Bioware to have talented writers who could possibly have something up their sleeves"

Watch the indoctrination video first... 

Then say it's grasping straws.

[S1at3]

Cucobr wrote...

Tsantilas wrote...

Oh look it's this thread again. Good god people, which part of "there are no facts supporting the theory" do you not get? "No doubt about indoctrination now..." my ass. If there is no "real ending" DLC, the Indoctrination theory is meaningless because ending the game on a dream sequence without actually fighting (defeating) the reapers, defeats the whole purpose of the game. The only way the Indoctrination theory makes sense (even if you get past the fact that it's got plenty of plot holes of it's own) is if a free patch "completes" the game... but do you really think that's going to happen?

I wonder how many times I'll have to link this until people start getting the picture:

Ok.

Explain then this Picture.



have a nice day.

It's someone we assume to be Shep (there are other N7s) laying in a pile of rubble.  Someone wrote the word indoctrination at the top.  Doesn't prove anything  Could be another N7.  Could be Conrad Verner.

Modifié par S1at3, 21 mars 2012 - 01:34 .

[Admiral H. Cain]

sedrikhcain wrote...

Zunzun wrote...

After watching all those videos, I'm beginning to think these people really have a point, and that indoctrination is likely. I guess a part of me still wants to believe they can't have written something that bad.

sedrikhcain wrote...

At about 4:30 in, the video from the OP's link says Shepard starts to hallucinate images of a boy after encountering the human Reaper, and/or object Rho. Not true, the hallucinations came only after he saw the boy killed by a Reaper.

Seeing the boy killed by a reaper could already be an hallucination.

Even if you believe that, Shepard still didn't have any such hallucinations until after seeing the boy in ME3. And, just to be a stickler about it, most of the images of the boy are Shepard's dreams, not hallucinations.

The first image we see in this game is that same kid playing with a model Alliance fighter; Shepard is watching him from the window. It could have been a hallucination the whole time. 

[Warden130]

Tsantilas wrote...

Warden130 wrote...
That video contains evidence supporting the Indoctrination theory. The definition of evidence?

"The available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid."

Yes unfortunatelly everyone seems to be misusing the word "evidence" as well, considering how the theory isn't based on evidence and facts, but rather interperetations and speculation.  Hence why it's called a "theory" and not a "proof".

Im curious, have you watch the video at all?

I have never called it anything other than a theory. Yes, it is still a theory until Bioware confirms other wise. But it has a lot of evidence behind it (and yes, also some speculation), which is shown in that video i linked, and myself, as well as many others, have chosen to believe it because of said evidence. Personally, I don't see where I have misused the word "evidence" in any of my posts.

[MadRabbit999]

Tsantilas wrote...

Cucobr wrote...

Ok.

Explain then this Picture.



have a nice day.

It's a piece of armor moving under some rubble that could be anywhere.  How does that in anyway invalidate the fact that you have defeated the reaper threat, and that the game is OVER?

edit: why do you only see if when you choose Destroy and have a high EMS score? Because Shepard DIES in all the other endings, so there is nothing to show.  Good day to you.

Yes... and the Citadel EXPLODES.... how did Shepard end up waking up on it?

Also the blue light suggests it is the lgiht of the conduit.

Modifié par MadRabbit999, 21 mars 2012 - 01:35 .

[FKA_Servo]

S1at3 wrote...

It's someone we assume to be Shep (there are other N7s) laying in a pile of rubble.  Someone wrote the word indoctrination at the top.  Doesn't prove anything  Could be another N7.

Shepard is the only N7 that ever matters to the player. For that to be anyone other than Shepard would make things even more incredibly nonsensical than they are.

[stillnotking]

Cucobr wrote...
Explain then this Picture.

Simple. BioWare anticipated that fans would be upset if there was no ending where Shepard survived, so they added this clip to throw them a bone. It only appears in the "destroy" ending because we clearly see Shepard dissolving in the other two endings. Not that it makes sense in the "destroy" ending either, because Shepard somehow ended up back on Earth, but that's just laziness. Same reason they never explain how/why the Normandy made a mass effect jump after the battle, or how it would be possible to crash land on a planet after having your ship's engines and fuselage wiped out in deep space. The explanation is that they just weren't trying very hard at this point.

have a nice day.

Hey, you do the same, buddy.

[S1at3]

MadRabbit999 wrote...

Tsantilas wrote...

Cucobr wrote...

Ok.

Explain then this Picture.



have a nice day.

It's a piece of armor moving under some rubble that could be anywhere.  How does that in anyway invalidate the fact that you have defeated the reaper threat, and that the game is OVER?

edit: why do you only see if when you choose Destroy and have a high EMS score? Because Shepard DIES in all the other endings, so there is nothing to show.  Good day to you.

Yes... and the Citadel EXPLODES.... how did Shepard end up waking up on it?

Also the blue light suggests it is the lgiht of the conduit.

Its Conrad Verner.

[MadRabbit999]

TommyServo wrote...

S1at3 wrote...

It's someone we assume to be Shep (there are other N7s) laying in a pile of rubble.  Someone wrote the word indoctrination at the top.  Doesn't prove anything  Could be another N7.

Shepard is the only N7 that ever matters to the player. For that to be anyone other than Shepard would make things even more incredibly nonsensical than they are.

He is right... maybe that is Vega first day as an N7... didn' turn out too well

/sarcasm

[Cucobr]

Tsantilas wrote...

Cucobr wrote...

Ok.

Explain then this Picture.



have a nice day.

It's a piece of armor moving under some rubble that could be anywhere.  How does that in anyway invalidate the fact that you have defeated the reaper threat, and that the game is OVER?

god.

MY GOD.

Please please, tell me that this is a random armor from a random soldier from a random place with a random N7 dogtag. Please tell me that.

Please tell me that bioware made this CG for no purpose. Tell me that this CG is a random CG.

god....believe in whatever you chose to belive dude.

[GreyhameBioware]

The indoctrination theory is a nice theory, but that's all it is. All the evidence you have that proves it to you is just you looking at what we have and interpreting it a certain way. Fact is, this is the way they intended to end the game, there was never going to be more ending until they got the massive backlash they have from it (which they still haven't confirmed if they are changing or not). This kind of speculation is what they were going for with the end.

To me, if IT is true it means they sold me a game without an ending, which is worse than they just screwing up the endings.

[MadRabbit999]

S1at3 wrote...

MadRabbit999 wrote...

Tsantilas wrote...

Cucobr wrote...

Ok.

Explain then this Picture.



have a nice day.

It's a piece of armor moving under some rubble that could be anywhere.  How does that in anyway invalidate the fact that you have defeated the reaper threat, and that the game is OVER?

edit: why do you only see if when you choose Destroy and have a high EMS score? Because Shepard DIES in all the other endings, so there is nothing to show.  Good day to you.

Yes... and the Citadel EXPLODES.... how did Shepard end up waking up on it?

Also the blue light suggests it is the lgiht of the conduit.

Its Conrad Verner.

It's Rick Ashley

[Kajan451]

Claym0re wrote...

Indictrination theory is a sound and viable ending option.

But its far from being proven as obviously evident.

The indoctrination Theory is a nice way to try to rationalize it, but it doesn't change the problem at hand.


Lets assume its really the answer. Lets not assume for a moment they just rushed the end and simply reused Models they already had to save time. Lets also assume they don't force a deus ex machina end to have an ending in which the Illusiveman, who had vanished from his base, and Anderson who might have gotten in after Shepard but has been getting ahead because shepard was unconcious. Lets assume all these other ways to explain it are wrong and the indoctrination theory is valid.

Then we have two problems:

1) To understand the end you have to play all DLC, all Parts and even read some of the novels, comics and all that. It would mean someone that isn't a hardcore fan following ME through all its games, would be unable to comprehend this end for the mere fact they lacked the informations.

It would also mean that the hardcore fans have to have a memory that leads them back 7 years to notice these hidden strands to make sense of the "end" (i am getting to that in a moment).

From a storytelling point of view it would be remarkably bad storytelling to expect people to catch on these subtible hints, which would make it a true fanservice. It would be something only a true fan of the series would be able to catch on. You basically would screw over 99% of all your fans for 1% that can feel like the Elite.

If you use that inside an ending, giving the 99% a good end they can life with and giving the 1% that caught on these subtible things an added goodie, would be a much better idea. This leads us to:


2) If it is true and this is the real deal. The whole Indoctrination thing being a fan service for people to catch on, this means we have got an incomplete game.

It would mean they cut out the end of the game. Due to time constraints or for whatever other reason, but they do have removed the end of the game. If the introduction Theory is true, and i am inclined to believe it could be true, it would mean you get to continue to play after choosing the destruction end.

It would mean someone had to pick you from the rubble there and you finish the fight with the reapers. It would mean your game just ended halfway through, just as the real fight was about to begin. It would mean we don't know what the cruible is, it would mean their ended the game in the middle of the final fight.


This would be the equivalent of fighting through the game and just when reaching the final boss fight your game ends, telling you to purchase whatever to play the bossfight and end your game.




I like the indoctrination idea. I really do, it would have made a remarkable end, if you had played this sequence really as part of the game, fighting inductrination and if your game could end there if you make the wrong choices, showing you endsequences in which the reapers actually won, instead of fantasies.

It would have been amazing. And if you choosed to pick the Destruction end... you are pulled from the rubble and keep on fighting for the last and final push, getting to the real "boss fight", getting the cruible to work and saving the day. Getting the real ending so to speak.

But as it is.. if the indoctrination theory is true, this game is missing like 10 to 15 minutes gameplay, and it would mean we get charged for the end of the movie.

Imagine Return of the sith ending just when Palpatine and Windu were about to face off. You see a little bit of anakins turmoil and then the lights turn on and the credits start to play. Only to see a last 5 seconds snipit of Anakin fastening his resolve to help the imperator just after the credits rolled.

And then someone would walk into the theatre and tell you "We'll be selling small additions to the movie soon, be sure to buy them"



If this indoctrination theory is right, its just making the matters worse and they didn't only cheat us out of an ending that provides closure, they cheated us out of the ending itself.

[Paragon Auducan]

Cody211282 wrote...

All I got from the old man was "Buy more DLC"

Why was he specific to ONE more though? And why say it at all, it's obviously something to be seen as important and not optional.

[nitefyre410]

GreyhameBioware wrote...
*snip*

To me, if IT is true it means they sold me a game without an ending, which is worse than they just screwing up the endings.

 

^ So much this 
 

[S1at3]

Shep never woke up at the beginning of ME2. He's still lying in a Cerberus facility. Prove otherwise.

[S1at3]

MadRabbit999 wrote...

S1at3 wrote...

MadRabbit999 wrote...

Tsantilas wrote...

Cucobr wrote...

Ok.

Explain then this Picture.



have a nice day.

It's a piece of armor moving under some rubble that could be anywhere.  How does that in anyway invalidate the fact that you have defeated the reaper threat, and that the game is OVER?

edit: why do you only see if when you choose Destroy and have a high EMS score? Because Shepard DIES in all the other endings, so there is nothing to show.  Good day to you.

Yes... and the Citadel EXPLODES.... how did Shepard end up waking up on it?

Also the blue light suggests it is the lgiht of the conduit.

Its Conrad Verner.

It's Rick Ashley

It's J-Lo a.k.a. Mitch Connor.

[Capeo]

Cucobr wrote...

Tsantilas wrote...

Oh look it's this thread again. Good god people, which part of "there are no facts supporting the theory" do you not get? "No doubt about indoctrination now..." my ass. If there is no "real ending" DLC, the Indoctrination theory is meaningless because ending the game on a dream sequence without actually fighting (defeating) the reapers, defeats the whole purpose of the game. The only way the Indoctrination theory makes sense (even if you get past the fact that it's got plenty of plot holes of it's own) is if a free patch "completes" the game... but do you really think that's going to happen?

I wonder how many times I'll have to link this until people start getting the picture:

Ok.

Explain then this Picture.



have a nice day.

Explain what?  It's from the script.  Destroy always had an ending where Shep lived.  It's the only ending where he can because NEWSFLASH: the other two endings consume his body.  And it's in blue light because the implication is he made it back to the beam.  Stupid?  Yes.  But so is the rest of the teleporting people ending.

[MadRabbit999]

GreyhameBioware wrote...

The indoctrination theory is a nice theory, but that's all it is. All the evidence you have that proves it to you is just you looking at what we have and interpreting it a certain way. Fact is, this is the way they intended to end the game, there was never going to be more ending until they got the massive backlash they have from it (which they still haven't confirmed if they are changing or not). This kind of speculation is what they were going for with the end.

To me, if IT is true it means they sold me a game without an ending, which is worse than they just screwing up the endings.

Ever played Fallout 3 vanilla?

HAve you finished it?

That one had an ending..

Expansion came and suddenly the ending was different...

How is the vanilla game not complete?

FFS people try to use a little your brains... if the way to ADD... it doesn't mea nthe game could not be completed before.. jeeze...

Modifié par MadRabbit999, 21 mars 2012 - 01:40 .

[Transgirlgamer]

The screen shot saying you've defeated the reaper threat doesn't invalidate any theory. It doesn't say how you deafeted the reaper threat and something could be put between the 'ending' and that screen and it still be the truth unless you end up with the reapers destroying all life above a certain level of development. I'm not saying that this definatly will happen, just that that one screen shot doesn't invalidate any theory. By the same token, the video of armor moving amongst debris doesn't support any particular theory. It could be that somehow Sheppard survived the destruction of the Citadel in the ending and was transported back down along with some rubble from the citadel as it came apart.

[TheTrueObelus]

Indoctrination or not the ending was an unfulfilling mess.

[FKA_Servo]

Maybe this has been raised before (I can’t babysit all these topics), so forgive me if it’s true but...c’mon. Casey Hudson saying that any DLC would take place during the storyline and not after absolutely does not rule out expanding or clarifying the ending (particularly if Shepard *is* alive in that last breathing scene).

This isn’t remotely grasping at straws, it’s just listening to his statement and applying common sense.

[stillnotking]

S1at3 wrote...

Shep never woke up at the beginning of ME2. He's still lying in a Cerberus facility. Prove otherwise.

You're all wrong. Shepard is a brain in a vat, and all three games are just scientists running tests on him. Also, the scientists don't know they are living in the Matrix, which was built by Reapers. But -- here's the awesomely written twist ending -- the Reapers are actually sea monkeys living in a bowl in some kid's room.

Prove me wrong! Ha, you can't, can you? Because it all makes sense. All the clues are there if you just look!

Stay tuned for my four-part series on the numerology of Mass Effect. I'll clearly demonstrate how the writers embedded all kinds of secrets about the Great Pyramid.

[Tsantilas]

Warden130 wrote...
Im curious, have you watch the video at all?

I have never called it anything other than a theory. Yes, it is still a theory until Bioware confirms other wise. But it has a lot of evidence behind it (and yes, also some speculation), which is shown in that video i linked, and myself, as well as many others, have chosen to believe it because of said evidence. Personally, I don't see where I have misused the word "evidence" in any of my posts.

I'm not pointing fingers at people specifically, but anyone who uses the word "evidence" when there are no facts, is simply incorrect.  The only "evidence" that would make the Indoctrination Theory true, is if there was more to see AFTER the ending.  For example in the scene with Shepard breathing at the end, if it continued by zooming out and showing that the Reapers were still there ****ing stuff up then it would be undeniable proof.  As it stands though there is no PROOF, only interpretations of scenes in the game and building a theory around those interperetations.

At the moment all we see is a vague close-up of a moving chestpiece under some generic rubble that could be anywhere because we don't get what in directing is called an "establishing shot" that gives the viewer an idea of wtf is going on.

Ontop of all that there is also the issue of the pop-up after the ending that congratulates the player on defeating the reapers.  Or are you going to argue that the pop-up is also part of the indoctrination?

[Myskal1981]

People really like the use of the word fact. Right now everything is speculation.

Please keep in mind that not every player will finish ME3 multiple times with different EMS to see Shepard breathe, nor will every player do NG+ runs to see the Stargazer sequence.
So taking those small snippets as evidence that only a certain ending is the correct one is just unfair to all other players that did not pick that ending or did not bother to replay the game. Those players need an ending too.

As much as I like to believe in indoc theory, real world events or messages do not fit with it.

Now you can say Bioware intended all this fuss. But thinking this makes even less sense than these endings.
ME3 is being destroyed on nearly every single social media platform. Many players will not buy the game. You know, the Internet writes in ink, it sticks, those bad reviews will not vanish.
If you believe Bioware intended this, you automatically have to believe that they not only gambled with us players, but also with game magazines and retailers.

Retailers like Amazon that are refunding the game and have to suffer player backlash and have costs for processing all those refunds, will not be happy if Bioware comes up in a couple of weeks: Fooled ya, it was all an indoctrination!
That would be a reason to sue, that is something you do not do in a business relationship and if you think that all those game magazines and retailers are actually all in Bioware's plans to indoctrinate players, well, sorry, than you are dilusional. They would not have any business reason what-so-ever to follow Bioware's plans.

So those believing that it was all intentional are either believing that Bioware is risking to fool business partners or that they actually had the power to convince everyone in the market to participate.

Please, answer me this: is it not far more probable that they just messed up the endings?